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Slaanesh didn't go back in time because Slaanesh isn't affected by time. It is already in all of time. It exists during all events. There is no point in time, from our perspective, where Slaanesh did not exist, even though we have an event that seemed to birth Slaanesh.

jareddm wrote:
Slaanesh didn't go back in time because Slaanesh isn't affected by time. It is already in all of time. It exists during all events. There is no point in time, from our perspective, where Slaanesh did not exist, even though we have an event that seemed to birth Slaanesh.

Like I said Jeremy Bearimy.

It's not time travel it's 5th/6th dimensional things.

- Dimension 1 adds height.

- Dimension 2 adds length (otherwise known as flatland, the basis of things like Mobius Strips).

- Dimension 3 adds depth.

- Dimension 4 adds Time. (This is our Dimension).

- Dimension 5 adds the ability to move through a linear time line.

- Dimension 6 adds the ability to move through non linear time lines.

So on so forth. Things in the warp exist in the 5th/6th dimension. There is no construct of linear passing. Things that are, have always been. They only become linear and perceive as forward once they come into our realm.

When a deamon comes out of the warp, it is leaving the warp into the materium at all points at the same time. The bloodletter that is killed on board Sanguinius' ship in ruinstorm is the exact same bloodletter that left the warp at the exact same time as the one you put on your table.

All realities slicing through time as the same point folding on top of one another (a time knife) across existences but we can only see one point as we are linear to time. Same way an inhabitant of flatland on a mobius strip won't have any idea they are going in a loop, to them they are simply moving forward.

You mean the Fall then not the War in Heaven.

I'd raise the argument that the Gods are affected by time though. There are times where there's a clear absence of their influence.

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

 Melissia wrote:

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

War in Heaven in the one with Necrontyr (hopefully didn;t butcher that spelling) and the old ones. This is the time where the old ones made Aeldari first. But when the fight broke out they made the orks as an unpredictable foe. (I believe Tyranids were made at this time as well to hunt down anything with a psychic presence as like a clean up crew so the old ones could start again? I might be wrong here.)

The fall is the fall of the Aeldari before IoM took over. Don;t know major details but this is one that involves Slaanesh getting all thirsty for the souls.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

War in Heaven in the one with Necrontyr (hopefully didn;t butcher that spelling) and the old ones. This is the time where the old ones made Aeldari first. But when the fight broke out they made the orks as an unpredictable foe. (I believe Tyranids were made at this time as well to hunt down anything with a psychic presence as like a clean up crew so the old ones could start again? I might be wrong here.)

The fall is the fall of the Aeldari before IoM took over. Don;t know major details but this is one that involves Slaanesh getting all thirsty for the souls.

Tyranids don't have a confirmed origin but really you can think what you like about them. I like to think someone made a bioweapon and lost the off button.

The Fall is basically Slaanesh gestating as the Eldar got more and more hedonistic. Eventually it reaches a critical point and Slaanesh is born, most of the Eldar die, the Eye of Terror forms around the Eldar core worlds and basically everything gets worse for everyone.

The primarchs were...perfect? Lol. From what I read about them, they were an absolute shitshow of mutation, daddy issues and crippling personality flaws.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

jareddm wrote:
There is no War in Heaven without Slaanesh already present, for instance.

Slaanesh had nothing to do with the war between the C'tan and the Old Ones.

But I believe we might be talking about two different events called "the war in heaven".

War in Heaven in the one with Necrontyr (hopefully didn;t butcher that spelling) and the old ones. This is the time where the old ones made Aeldari first. But when the fight broke out they made the orks as an unpredictable foe. (I believe Tyranids were made at this time as well to hunt down anything with a psychic presence as like a clean up crew so the old ones could start again? I might be wrong here.)

The fall is the fall of the Aeldari before IoM took over. Don;t know major details but this is one that involves Slaanesh getting all thirsty for the souls.

No, I meant the War in Heaven. The one where supposedly "Chaos didn't exist yet." I'm saying that's not true because chaos has always existed, even before their birth.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Like I said Jeremy Bearimy.

Had to remind myself where this was from, but essentially yes. Great show btw

Melissia wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Like, Slaanesh has always existed, but was created by the fall of the Eldar

Slaanesh existed before the fall of the Eldar, but was awakened or "birthed" by the fall of the Eldar-- not "created".

I don't know, I see birthed and created as largely being the same thing.

So, in your interpretation you see it as Slaanesh being dormant, and woken by the Eldar, I see it as the Eldar creating Slaanesh, and the echoes of that birth causing Slaanesh to always have existed.

Whether or not any of the Chaos Gods actually existed at the beginning of the galaxy is up for debate. They claim they did, but they're unreliable sources of information. I'm fairly certain they were all "conceived" during the War in Heaven between the Necrontyr/C'tan and the Old Ones/early Eldar/Kr'orks, which was such a massive feth-all war that it screwed the Immaterium up in to becoming the Warp.

Whereas I've always seen the Chaos Gods having always existed, but could exist acausally.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Or ships being able to time travel accidentally via the Warp (such as the story of an Ork who accidentally goes back in time, and kills himself, so he can have a spare copy of his favourite gun?)

The difference there is those things aren't just blatant "HAHAHAHAHAH CHAOS IS ALL POWERFUL AND CANNOT BE RESISTED HAHAHAHAHAH I'M SO EDGY!" boring crap. The Ork thing is played for laughs, for example.

Again, my interpretation of Slaanesh would fall into that same "hahahahah chaos is powerful" as you said. I think I prefer the "Sanguinius' death was SO important psychically that it became written into the blood of his sons in all dimensions of time. I like my BA to be tragic.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
This isn't really a new development

Making massive unstoppable changes to the past actually is a new thing.

Again, not really. Slaanesh, as above. But, we clearly have a different interpretation of that event.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Or a daemon talking you into becoming a daemon prince who then turns out to be the same daemon who talked you into becoming it.

.

.. I suddenly want this to be the true story of Fulgrim

BrianDavion wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Or a daemon talking you into becoming a daemon prince who then turns out to be the same daemon who talked you into becoming it.

.

.. I suddenly want this to be the true story of Fulgrim

This actually kind of happens to someone in Black Legion...

the_scotsman wrote:
The primarchs were...perfect? Lol. From what I read about them, they were an absolute shitshow of mutation, daddy issues and crippling personality flaws.

How much of that is due to the Chaos Gods stealing their pods, though, so they were brought up outside of the Imperial Palace?

* * *

Going back to the Blood Angels for a second, I thought the Red Thirst was the genetic mutation on their geneseed, while the Black Rage was (possibly) tied to the use of Sanguinius' blood as an activator lodging some of the Primarch's memories within an aspirant's psyche, which torment them over time... but not as a fixable genetic factor, more of a psychic phenomenon.

 Dysartes wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The primarchs were...perfect? Lol. From what I read about them, they were an absolute shitshow of mutation, daddy issues and crippling personality flaws.

How much of that is due to the Chaos Gods stealing their pods, though, so they were brought up outside of the Imperial Palace?

* * *

Going back to the Blood Angels for a second, I thought the Red Thirst was the genetic mutation on their geneseed, while the Black Rage was (possibly) tied to the use of Sanguinius' blood as an activator lodging some of the Primarch's memories within an aspirant's psyche, which torment them over time... but not as a fixable genetic factor, more of a psychic phenomenon.

It is, but BA still suffered from black rage pre Sanguin death. Hense this time debate thing.

This is why I'm on about time knife, Jeremy Bearimy and dimensions etc.

It's not a time thing it's a case of Sanguin;s death had that much of a psychic impact it rippled to effect ALL of his sons, past, present and future.

Well Blood Angels are disposed to foresight and premonition, so it’s hardly surprising they are able to ‘experience’ Sanguinius’ death before and after it happened.

Wait, they knew in advance that sang would die fighting horus? Was this common knowledge? How far in advance are we talking about?

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Wait, they knew in advance that sang would die fighting horus? Was this common knowledge? How far in advance are we talking about?

Not necessarily Horus, but they could still receive visions of his impending death.

Musselman wrote:
This all seems to be reasonable and more than likely the case. I like when enough bread crumbs are left in the fluff that you can deduce things without having it completely explained.
I believe in another topic someone said that based on the novel about the Emperor and the Seige of Terra and the warp gate, that the Custodes were supposed to replace the space marines, like the marines did the thunder warriors. Maybe I am wrong but even if it is true, there is still a big gap from primaris to custodes. This just makes the raptors that Corax made all the more intriguing, maybe they were even better than the primaris?

IIRC the timeline was Custodeus, Thunder Warriors, Primarchs and Marines. (And then Primaris).

Going off my flawed memories of Master of Mankind I got that:

Custodeus were the artisinal custom jobs taking years to craft, primachs the improvement on them. The were all warrior scholars, geniuses and leaders of men. Never meant for mass production.

Thunder Warriors were the quickie jobs, refined into Marines after the conquest of Luna and Mars. There's hints the Emperor planned to dispose of them after the Great Crusade, but at the same time he came have had an improved version in mind.

So basically I see nothing wrong in this reasoning, but it's hardly necessary. Genius tech dude works in secret for 10k years to improve the product works for me. I'd just build in something about Guilleman's return giving him that crucial last ingredient sort of thing.