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She was also now disillusioned with the Emperor - she suspected he was becoming no better than the tyrants who ruled Terra before him, and that her project was better destroyed than corrupted, and not in the Emperor's hands anyway.

Seems to be a combination of "my work is flawed, I can't allow this to be created" and "the Emperor's just another tyrant".

Ahhh that makes much more sense then. That seems to be becoming a theme with early Crusade characters, noticing the Emperor isn't much better than the other tyrants.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
His singular failure is not seeing what Horus would become.

I'd argue his failure was in not eliminating Erebus and Kor Whatshisname on sight, but there you go

That's nice. I don't relaly hate Primaris Marines though, myself.

But I will gleefully mock lore that presents them as "more marine-ier than thou!", where they're basically presented as marines to the power of marines, as if something's Space Marine-esque quality was a quantifiable thing and the Primaris are the x2 variant.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Where is this Thunder Warrior thing covered?

the new Valdore novel

The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

 SisterSydney wrote:
The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

Blame the design process. Models always come first, then rules, then lore. The really cool and crazy stuff that wins wars is never represented by models. It's represented by objective tokens.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
First off re Thunderwarrior Primarchs, those indeed where a thing, and apparently there where 20 seperate Thunder warrior legions each lead by a Primarch. the DIFFERANCE though is Primarch was, for the Thunderwarriors JUST a rank.

As for Primaris and custodes etc, there's no evidance Custodes where ever intended to replace Marines. Custodes came first

Where is this Thunder Warrior thing covered?

the new Valdore novel

Chris Wraight also said it very clearly at the Black LIbrary Weekender, whilst talking about Valdor.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

Yet, it’s served The Imperium well for 10,000 years, and The Emperor, counting Thunder Warriors and whatever Genehanced precursors, even longer.

I suspect there are very, very few armed forces that wouldn’t give an arm and a leg for stronger, faster, smarter and more resilient troops.

And as is the point of this entire thread, there are plenty breadcrumbs to point to Primaris having always been on the agenda to some degree. Certainly, if my theory of Guilliman being intrigued by what the Raven Guard’s Raptors should’ve been is accurate?

Well, he knows the biggest threat to the Imperium, post Heresy (including the Scourging) were the traitor Legions. What better way to counter them than new and improved Astartes?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
The thing that gets me about Primaris Marines is that, in the Imperium’s darkest hour, Humanity’s greatest minds come forth with an undreamed-of scientific breakthrough to save the day, and it’s .... bigger dudes.
Really? That’s it?

Yet, it’s served The Imperium well for 10,000 years, and The Emperor, counting Thunder Warriors and whatever Genehanced precursors, even longer.

I suspect there are very, very few armed forces that wouldn’t give an arm and a leg for stronger, faster, smarter and more resilient troops.

And as is the point of this entire thread, there are plenty breadcrumbs to point to Primaris having always been on the agenda to some degree. Certainly, if my theory of Guilliman being intrigued by what the Raven Guard’s Raptors should’ve been is accurate?

Well, he knows the biggest threat to the Imperium, post Heresy (including the Scourging) were the traitor Legions. What better way to counter them than new and improved Astartes?

Mass produced weaponry capable of penetrating Astartes armour easily that allows for much more effective defences against Chaos Marines?

Honest question there, is who is going to wield it, and where is it coming from in sufficient numbers?

And, why not both? Cawl Pattern Bolt Rifles broadly match the description.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could even plunge down a slightly different rabbit hole.

We know that much of the concept of Astartes is absolute, overwhelming, brute force. They are terror troops of the highest calibre.

As your squad mates start detonating around you, your counter fire barely slows them. Maybe someone got off a lucky shot, and blasted an arm off the foe. Well, he’s still mostly combat effective, and crucially? He’s still coming.

With Traitor Astartes, that works both ways when fielding mixed formations. Just as loyalists tearing through the enemy is superb for morale, seeing them cut down in turn by very often more experienced foes is superbly demoralising.

And that’s where the Primaris come into effect. Yes, they still die. But they’re tougher to put down than a Traitor Astartes. And their weapons are slightly better (tabletop only, oddly haven’t read much Primaris fiction), so they do attrition better than most Traitors.

Since this is an admitted Rabbit Hole theory, I want to run just a little further.

We know The Imperium runs on propaganda. 100% of the time. What better propaganda than Primaris being seen to absolutely spank their corrupted Brethren? Does that not only add to the tales that Chaos enfeebles? How many worlds would such Picts help prevent from even thinking of rebelling? How many citizens barely brushing a Cult might think just a little bit harder?

Guardsmen. The people who make up 90% of the Imperium's military and I imagine it would come from Forge Worlds. That's the point of weapons development - you give it to your existing troops and make it in the same kind of place you make your current weapon.

Would make sense for propaganda, if not fact.

Roman centurions looked better than the "barbarian hordes" on paper. We know how it worked out in practice.

To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUkaTcoM_2Q&list=PLx6N3LVwgba2DoXWGXq-lANYAamQTsWw9&index=50

Yet that is a staggering effort. There’s a Million worlds in the Imperium. At least.

The reason the Imperial Guard use the Lasgun is one of practicality. Few moving parts, so easy to maintain. Relatively universal ammo, so even if the Adeptus Munitorum gets the wrong crates to you, there’s a high chance you’ll have the right ammo. Very simple, very foolproof weapons. Something even the rawest recruit is hard pressed to ruin. And in enough volume, more than enough against the majority of foes.

The more complexity you add to such a weapon, the greater the logistic of supply, maintenance and training.

You also don’t want anything as large as an Imperial Guard regiment gone rogue with your best weapons. At all.

There’s also the structure of the Imperium to consider. The majority of really nice weapons come from Forgeworlds - certainly all those made in the volume demanded by having untold billions under arms at any given moment.

If a new weapon takes three times the resources and effort to make, it needs to be very, very effective indeed. Because you’ve just cut your supply by a third. Can The Imperium afford that? Will enough Forgeworlds (who still remain fairly autonomous as such things go) adopt the new design? Because we’re not talking about sane men here. We’re talking 40k, where superstition is rife, and adhered to literally religiously.

Will all Forgeworlds that do adopt it have the right resource to produce them? Not all can produce Plasma weapons, after all.

Ad Mech mysticism aside, the sheer size of The Imperium, and the necessities of protecting it are a solid reason for technological stagnation.

We also need to consider the life expectancy of a Guardsman. Once they’re dead, where do the weapons go? All being well, recovered by friendlies. But when defeat occurs? Do you really, really want weapons that can cut an Astartes down in the hands of the foe? The Astartes being your last word in a reasonably deployable ‘Nope’ switch? The troops you send in to tear out the cancerous heart of the foe with such utter ruthlessness and efficiency that their command structure utterly collapses? Often with little more than a single squad? A single squad that can now be cut to ribbons because you decided to arm your meat shields with weapons sufficient to drop them?

I say thee nay. I say that’s a very, very daft idea indeed!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Would make sense for propaganda, if not fact.

Roman centurions looked better than the "barbarian hordes" on paper. We know how it worked out in practice.

Roman Centurions weren’t genetically enhanced psycho killers who’s sidearm can cause civilian weapons to explode into flames with a single shot

As for Arch Warhammer? I’m not listening to any of his stuff, for reasons We Do Not Discuss On Dakka. So I’ll never know if that blow hard is correct or not, or even using background references.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Would make sense for propaganda, if not fact.

Roman centurions looked better than the "barbarian hordes" on paper. We know how it worked out in practice.

Roman Centurions weren’t genetically enhanced psycho killers who’s sidearm can cause civilian weapons to explode into flames with a single shot

Yes but in this case the Huns, Visigoths, and Vandals are also genetically enhanced psych killers whose sidearms can cause civilian weapons to explode into flames with a single shot.

And some of them are supremely better terror troops. (The Eighth Legion says hi).

Not sure that’s an accurate analogy?

Primaris are to Legionnaires as perhaps the Praetorian Guard? Better trained and equipped (theoretically) for the very purpose of defending against Legionnaries?

 aphyon wrote:
To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUkaTcoM_2Q&list=PLx6N3LVwgba2DoXWGXq-lANYAamQTsWw9&index=50

Bad source. That guy's logic is pretty iffy most of the time. If Ramliez, Luetin, or Occula Imperia released something to the same effect it might lend some credence.

There’s also the allegation in the background that Primaris are even more fearless than their forebears, meaning they, in theory (again, limited BL knowledge, always open to cited education on the matter) hold up better against Terror Tactics?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not sure that’s an accurate analogy?

Primaris are to Legionnaires as perhaps the Praetorian Guard? Better trained and equipped (theoretically) for the very purpose of defending against Legionnaries?

Perhaps. But the traitor legions at this point no longer fight the same. They bring new tactics. Similar to the Huns. The Imperium doesn't just need better troops. It needs to adapt its tactics. That's why Gulliman is more important than primaris. He's dragging the Imperium out of 10000 years of thick headed dogma.

And whilst we’re in this particular rabbit hole, physical resilience and speed of reaction, against a more experienced foe, counts for a lot.

Consider. Space Marines are hard to make, regardless of Loyalist or Traitor, correct?

So in general terms, if I could offer an army troops capable of swift learning, which was also harder to kill, to take on a less physically capable (relatively speaking) but far more experienced and blooded foe, why wouldn’t you accept?

After all. Experience is something anyone can gain in any field. And is ultimately irreplacable in any war machine.

Consider that when the Primaris take the field, they’re slaying Veterans. And given their production is the result of 10,000 years of trial and error, backed with the full industrial might of The Imperium? They’re superb warriors of attrition.

Yes, Chaos forces are less fussy about who goes under the knife. Indeed, if we look at the numbers and state of recruitment pools during the Great Crusade, it seems the Loyalist Chapters are being overly fussy in terms of recruitment...

But how do Chaos store the bits and bobs necessary? If bodies are lost during a raid, do they have opportunity to recover gene seed or not? And can they do it ‘properly’, as Loyalists do? That I honestly don’t know. Perhaps it’s covered in a book I’ve not read, wouldn’t be the first time!

But either way.... Chaos loses its one edge - experience. Many Traitors have been around since The Great Crusade itself. Every single one lost is a serious blow to the war effort.

Primaris? Better able to survived. And thanks to the Rubicon, even seriously wounded First Born can get the upgrade, not only returning them to the fray, but their experience.

It’s a solid concept, Primaris is!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also the allegation in the background that Primaris are even more fearless than their forebears, meaning they, in theory (again, limited BL knowledge, always open to cited education on the matter) hold up better against Terror Tactics?

Not sure about bl but on tabletop they have the same leadership as tacticals. For what that's worth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And whilst we’re in this particular rabbit hole, physical resilience and speed of reaction, against a more experienced foe, counts for a lot.

Consider. Space Marines are hard to make, regardless of Loyalist or Traitor, correct?

So in general terms, if I could offer an army troops capable of swift learning, which was also harder to kill, to take on a less physically capable (relatively speaking) but far more experienced and blooded foe, why wouldn’t you accept?

After all. Experience is something anyone can gain in any field. And is ultimately irreplacable in any war machine.

Consider that when the Primaris take the field, they’re slaying Veterans. And given their production is the result of 10,000 years of trial and error, backed with the full industrial might of The Imperium? They’re superb warriors of attrition.

Yes, Chaos forces are less fussy about who goes under the knife. Indeed, if we look at the numbers and state of recruitment pools during the Great Crusade, it seems the Loyalist Chapters are being overly fussy in terms of recruitment...

But how do Chaos store the bits and bobs necessary? If bodies are lost during a raid, do they have opportunity to recover gene seed or not? And can they do it ‘properly’, as Loyalists do? That I honestly don’t know. Perhaps it’s covered in a book I’ve not read, wouldn’t be the first time!

But either way.... Chaos loses its one edge - experience. Many Traitors have been around since The Great Crusade itself. Every single one lost is a serious blow to the war effort.

Primaris? Better able to survived. And thanks to the Rubicon, even seriously wounded First Born can get the upgrade, not only returning them to the fray, but their experience.

It’s a solid concept, Primaris is!

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

And it's always better to root for the underdog. (Even if they are psychopathic killers. )

aphyon wrote:To the OP

your entire argument already has been debunked by arch

Arch? No thanks. As Gadzilla's said:

Gadzilla666 wrote:If Ramliez, Luetin, or Occula Imperia released something to the same effect it might lend some credence.

, I'd be more receptive to anything from anyone else, but I don't believe they've made that kind of theory.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:There’s also the allegation in the background that Primaris are even more fearless than their forebears, meaning they, in theory (again, limited BL knowledge, always open to cited education on the matter) hold up better against Terror Tactics?

More indoctrinated (the Martian ones, at least), and apparently more resistant to corruption (not sure if that's just Cawl spouting propaganda or if that's genuine though), but I wouldn't say they're more fearless, IMO.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Maybe you should state specifically that before going into a rebuke about something unmentioned. It’s the same sort of super growth that Astartes aspirants have had done to become the original marines. If you can accept full-on height boosting and development of the Astartes barrel chest or fused rib cage just from, what, 19 organs transplanted over a period of time, I can’t imagine you not being able to accept 3 (or two for growth, while the coil just adds to durability) organs being transplanted to add some more muscle mass and regenerate damaged/destroyed tissue all while hooked up to powerful medical devices just like aspirants are. Keep in mind, a youth becoming a space marine is just a human boy, with the body of one, and Marine becoming a Primaris is a space marine with the body of a space marine, the peak health state that doesn’t tire or become sick, etc. Its more plausible that a superhuman could be made more superhuman than a teenager (or full adult, as I believe the Great Khan had at least a couple of successes with) could be.

After the new growth, it’s normal space marine rules.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Maybe you should state specifically that before going into a rebuke about something unmentioned. It’s the same sort of super growth that Astartes aspirants have had done to become the original marines. If you can accept full-on height boosting and development of the Astartes barrel chest or fused rib cage just from, what, 19 organs transplanted over a period of time, I can’t imagine you not being able to accept 3 (or two for growth, while the coil just adds to durability) organs being transplanted to add some more muscle mass and regenerate damaged/destroyed tissue all while hooked up to powerful medical devices just like aspirants are. Keep in mind, a youth becoming a space marine is just a human boy, with the body of one, and Marine becoming a Primaris is a space marine with the body of a space marine, the peak health state that doesn’t tire or become sick, etc. Its more plausible that a superhuman could be made more superhuman than a teenager (or full adult, as I believe the Great Khan had at least a couple of successes with) could be.

After the new growth, it’s normal space marine rules.

An aspirant grows into a space marine over a period of years, the organs affect their growth and development. The creation of a primaris from an aspirant is the same only with additional organs causing increased development. Changing the development of a growing organism is more plausible than causing spontaneous changes in one that is already fully developed.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Head canon: Cawl is actually an agent of The Master from Doctor Who. The primaris process and organs he uses are actually creating space marine / Timelord metacrisis hybrids. The death / healing kickstart we see is actually a Timelord Regeneration.

nareik wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agreed. But the whole "crossing the Rubicon " heals marines from wounds that wouldn't even allow for internment in a dreadnought concept is plot convenience at its finest.

That’s more of a misinterpretation due to lack of information on your part. Dreadnoughts are for keeping barely alive marines alive. Every marine that is crossing Rubricon literally dies. That’s a part of the process. They die and then the new organs jumpstart the corpse into supergrowth. They decided to have a marine character, to which they named Lazarus
die. The Apothecary just decided that he could work with half the hard work already started.

No "misinterpretation" or "lack of information". I just find the idea of "super growth" ridiculous.

The idea of implanting young adults, right as they're hitting puberty, with organs that cause them to develop into super humans is plausible. The idea of someone regrowing destroyed organs and limbs isn't. Do primaris retain these regenerative abilities? If so why would they need bionics? Or internment in a redemptor? It's merely a plot device to explain the upgrading of existing characters to primaris.

Head canon: Cawl is actually an agent of The Master from Doctor Who. The primaris process and organs he uses are actually creating space marine / Timelord metacrisis hybrids. The death / healing kickstart we see is actually a Timelord Regeneration.

Somehow that's better than both Dr Who and GW's recent writing.

Hey, last night's episode was really good!