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So as most of you know the Raven guard and their successors get +1 to hit and wound characters in tactical doctrine. I have been using a chapter master with box espiritum for rerolls and have had great success. I’d like to maximize my mortal wound output since the master allows reroll hits not just failed hits. My though is if my 3 squads of eliminators use guided aim in tactical to proc mortals in addition on 4+ does that make up for the sgt not shooting in the long run? Has anyone tried this?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/16 13:38:24
Some Math against shoting vs a Space Marines Captain equivalent (no -1 to hit, T4, 3+/4++):
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine (3shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 1.041 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim (2shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 0.694 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine + RR to hit (3shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 1.215 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim + RR to hit (2shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 0.810 Unsaved wounds
So statistically both do the same amount of MW but firing the 3 guys does more standar wounds under the RG doctrine
5 scouts 5 shots =1.1 MW and 0.74 unsaved wounds
5 scouts with RR to hit= 1.48 MW and 0.98 unsaved wounds
65 points of scouts really out damages 72 points of eliminators in that scenario.
Quantity has it's own quality.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Some Math against shoting vs a Space Marines Captain equivalent (no -1 to hit, T4, 3+/4++):
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine (3shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 1.041 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim (2shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 0.694 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine + RR to hit (3shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 1.215 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim + RR to hit (2shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 0.810 Unsaved wounds
So statistically both do the same amount of MW but firing the 3 guys does more standar wounds under the RG doctrine
5 scouts 5 shots =1.1 MW and 0.74 unsaved wounds
5 scouts with RR to hit= 1.48 MW and 0.98 unsaved wounds
65 points of scouts really out damages 72 points of eliminators in that scenario.
Quantity has it's own quality.
They don't out-damage Eliminators, the quoted math is incorrect.
RG eliminators; 3 shots hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's in the tactical doctrine, causing mortal wounds on 5's. 2.92 wounds after saves.
[edit, added correct scouts damage]
RG scouts; 5 shots hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's in the tactical doctrine, causing mortal wounds on 5's. 2.31 wounds after saves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/21 12:44:22
Some Math against shoting vs a Space Marines Captain equivalent (no -1 to hit, T4, 3+/4++):
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine (3shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 1.041 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim (2shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 0.694 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine + RR to hit (3shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 1.215 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim + RR to hit (2shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 0.810 Unsaved wounds
So statistically both do the same amount of MW but firing the 3 guys does more standar wounds under the RG doctrine
5 scouts 5 shots =1.1 MW and 0.74 unsaved wounds
5 scouts with RR to hit= 1.48 MW and 0.98 unsaved wounds
65 points of scouts really out damages 72 points of eliminators in that scenario.
Quantity has it's own quality.
They don't out-damage Eliminators, the quoted math is incorrect.
RG eliminators; 3 shots hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's in the tactical doctrine, causing mortal wounds on 5's. 2.92 wounds after saves.
[edit, added correct scouts damage]
RG scouts; 5 shots hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's in the tactical doctrine, causing mortal wounds on 5's. 2.31 wounds after saves.
Let's simply the math even more.
The hits are the same they both likely hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s.
The mortal wounds are the same 1/3 of all hits.
The scouts therefore do 5 mortals for every 3 caused by the eliminators
Agaisnt a T4 target with a 3+ save scout hits average 2/3* 1/3= 2/9th of a wound*5= 1&1/9 unsaved per 5 hits
Mortis rounds 5/6*1/2=5/12 unsaved per hit×2 for de damage=10/12×3 eliminators=30/12= 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Mortis total is 3.5 per 3 hits v scouts 2 & 7/9.
A storm shield would knock the mortis down to 30/18 +1 mortal for a total of 2&2/3 just under the scouts.
Mortis does more standard wounds while scouts put out a lot more mortals.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Some Math against shoting vs a Space Marines Captain equivalent (no -1 to hit, T4, 3+/4++):
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine (3shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 1.041 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim (2shots): 0.694 Mortal wounds & 0.694 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine + RR to hit (3shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 1.215 Unsaved wounds
>RG Eliminators under Special Doctrine & Guided aim + RR to hit (2shots): 0.810 Mortal wounds & 0.810 Unsaved wounds
So statistically both do the same amount of MW but firing the 3 guys does more standar wounds under the RG doctrine
5 scouts 5 shots =1.1 MW and 0.74 unsaved wounds
5 scouts with RR to hit= 1.48 MW and 0.98 unsaved wounds
65 points of scouts really out damages 72 points of eliminators in that scenario.
Quantity has it's own quality.
They don't out-damage Eliminators, the quoted math is incorrect.
RG eliminators; 3 shots hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's in the tactical doctrine, causing mortal wounds on 5's. 2.92 wounds after saves.
[edit, added correct scouts damage]
RG scouts; 5 shots hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's in the tactical doctrine, causing mortal wounds on 5's. 2.31 wounds after saves.
Let's simply the math even more.
The hits are the same they both likely hit on a 2+ rerolling 1s.
The mortal wounds are the same 1/3 of all hits.
The scouts therefore do 5 mortals for every 3 caused by the eliminators
Agaisnt a T4 target with a 3+ save scout hits average 2/3* 1/3= 2/9th of a wound*5= 1&1/9 unsaved per 5 hits
Mortis rounds 5/6*1/2=5/12 unsaved per hit×2 for de damage=10/12×3 eliminators=30/12= 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Mortis total is 3.5 per 3 hits v scouts 2 & 7/9.
A storm shield would knock the mortis down to 30/18 +1 mortal for a total of 2&2/3 just under the scouts.
Mortis does more standard wounds while scouts put out a lot more mortals.
A lot more mortal wounds is hyperbole, a scout squad of 5 does .56 more mortal wounds and .65 with re-roll 1's than 3 eliminators. Scouts are better against 3+ (or 2+ dark eldar?) invulnerable saves. Eliminators are better against a wider range of targets due to better AP and D3 damage.
Using costs of 65 for scouts vs 72 for eliminators is a bit inaccurate too because if comparing similar durability (camo cloaks), scouts become more expensive for the squad and per wound.
Scouts are used in top lists more often because they're cheap battalion filler that also function as a screen.
To the answer of the OP question. Due to hitting on 2's and wounding on 2's with the special Raven Guard doctrine, they don't benefit more from guided aim than they do from getting an extra shot, even with mortal wounds on 4+. It's better to shoot with all 3.
