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OP - "Hi I'm a returning hobbyist and want to invest my time into the community and want to start enjoying myself again with Warhammer. How is it?"
1st few Posts - "It's really fun, just be aware of certian mechanics that may catch you out. But on the whole welcome and have fun ".
Next posts - "Go away, workshop bad, hobby bad, 40k bad, me want old 40k"
You guys actively push away members of the hobby you claim to love so much.
IMO -
8th ed is the best we've had since 5th. I've been playing since end of 3rd. 8th does have issues such as lethality but that's why the average game now is 2,000 pts. If you;re returning after a hiatus I recommend don't just play 40k, also play some kill team too.
8th ed really encourages home brew narratives from time to time. Which is really fun and amazing. It allows immersion. Most importantly if you want a true opinion of the state of 40k without the relentless downpour of workshop haters, ask a FB group. Dakka is good for paints and rules clarification and lore. But if you're looking for an equal share of opinions, wrong place.
People who complain about the balance a lot are clearly lacking long term experience with 40k. It's a lot better than it has been in past editions, including 5th.
Sim-Life wrote: Its a lot faster and easier to play than it ever has been once your group knows the rules you can knock a game out in about 2 hours. A bunch of people are about to come in and gak all over the game and say that the balance is terrible, there's too many books etc but as with any game its up to you and your group how deep and competitive you go. If you want to just get together with friends and have a laugh and throw some dice you'll have a great time. You don't really NEED all the books and documents BaconCatBug is about to tell you you do.and you can get by with the BRB and a codex.
I would recommend getting the CA2019 missions though. They're the best scenarios GW has ever put out and I've been playing since 2nd.
Faster onlv because game is basically over by turn 2 with armies in tatters. If that doesn't happen it's slower than 40k has ever been because of ridiculous amount of dices rolled(10 flagelants attacking takes nearly 200 dice roll in average to go through...) and rerolls everywhere. Army sizes also go up a ton in modeis.
Sim-Life wrote: Its a lot faster and easier to play than it ever has been once your group knows the rules you can knock a game out in about 2 hours. A bunch of people are about to come in and gak all over the game and say that the balance is terrible, there's too many books etc but as with any game its up to you and your group how deep and competitive you go. If you want to just get together with friends and have a laugh and throw some dice you'll have a great time. You don't really NEED all the books and documents BaconCatBug is about to tell you you do.and you can get by with the BRB and a codex.
I would recommend getting the CA2019 missions though. They're the best scenarios GW has ever put out and I've been playing since 2nd.
Faster onlv because game is basically over by turn 2 with armies in tatters. If that doesn't happen it's slower than 40k has ever been because of ridiculous amount of dices rolled(10 flagelants attacking takes nearly 200 dice roll in average to go through...) and rerolls everywhere. Army sizes also go up a ton in modeis.
Lol not true at all. I haven't finished a game prior to turn 4/5 in a long time.
In my opinion 8th ed is polarizing, either the game is SUPER FUN and nail biting to the end, with clutch plays happening/ rolls. Or one dudes list just dumpsters the other with 0 interactivity.
Luckily, if you have a nice local scene, the game has never been better to play or more welcoming to new comers, so go grab your dice and join the mad house!
Faster onlv because game is basically over by turn 2 with armies in tatters. If that doesn't happen it's slower than 40k has ever been because of ridiculous amount of dices rolled(10 flagelants attacking takes nearly 200 dice roll in average to go through...) and rerolls everywhere. Army sizes also go up a ton in modeis.
Lol not true at all. I haven't finished a game prior to turn 4/5 in a long time.
good for you, because I had been left with 5-6 models at the end of turn 2 too often to count. seen others in situations like that too. And it wasn't just initiative gets stolen situation. Normal games with people going first losing units imporant to missions scoring or being unable to keep up with how much fire power the other side has.
8th ed really encourages home brew narratives from time to time. Which is really fun and amazing. It allows immersion. Most importantly if you want a true opinion of the state of 40k without the relentless downpour of workshop haters, ask a FB group. Dakka is good for paints and rules clarification and lore. But if you're looking for an equal share of opinions, wrong place.
but facenook groups are echo chambers. you ask a narrative group if narrative is a thing, and they will tell you it is, no matter you can go store after store and see only match played games being played. Same with groups made by tournament teams, they also say game is great. But when you tell them what you play, and it doesn't happen to be a good army, their tips to fix stuff is to buy a new army. Which isn't even a bad tip to get, unless you just bought an army because another facebook group told you w40k can be played with what ever you want, as long as people aren't donkey-caves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:01:56
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
If your games are ending too quickly you need to establish better rules in your local scene for pick up games.
Are opponents looking for the same thing? Are they equally competitive? If you find yourself paired against narrative players, or tournament focused players whist your hobby focus is different you can indeed end up with mismatched play experiences. This applies to every single game, not just 40k.
This is a social game. Socialise
Don't just complain - it's in your power to fix this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:09:27
You guys actively push away members of the hobby you claim to love so much.
No, GW is doing that with their awful rules.
We do not work for GW. We are not paid to be their marketing team (with the possible exception of Ishagu ). Hence, we are not required to scam new players into investing large sums of money into a horribly-designed game.
People here have praised the core rules but for the life of me I can't see why. This is a game that the designers have had 8 editions to refine, yet it reads like the beta rules for the 1st edition of a game where the creators had zero prior experience designing wargames and none of them spoke a common language.
Seriously, if any other game tried to market rules of this quality at even half the prices GW charge, they'd be laughed out of the market. Yet it seems so many 40k players see it as their duty to support GW, no matter how awful their rules or how overpriced their products.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I don't socilise. but even people that do have the same problems. We have maybe 5 people that go to big tournaments, more or less everyone plays in the store events.
we have terrain, and it is 8th ed terrain. We run house rules for forests blocking line of sight, and buildings blocking LoS too even if they have windows and doors on the first floor. most people armies aren't tournament ones, or werent tournament ones, the guy who played a marine army build out of 3 dark empires and some primaris dreadnoughts over night turned in to hardcore tournament player. That is not to say the armies are very different from the tournament ones. We don't use FW, so there are no leviathans messing people up. people have 2-3 flyers instead of 5-6 etc
ah and we have zero narrative players.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:19:12
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
You guys actively push away members of the hobby you claim to love so much.
No, GW is doing that with their awful rules.
We do not work for GW. We are not paid to be their marketing team (with the possible exception of Ishagu ). Hence, we are not required to scam new players into investing large sums of money into a horribly-designed game.
People here have praised the core rules but for the life of me I can't see why. This is a game that the designers have had 8 editions to refine, yet it reads like the beta rules for the 1st edition of a game where the creators had zero prior experience designing wargames and none of them spoke a common language.
Seriously, if any other game tried to market rules of this quality at even half the prices GW charge, they'd be laughed out of the market. Yet it seems so many 40k players see it as their duty to support GW, no matter how awful their rules or how overpriced their products.
You have a lot of opinions, and I disagree with all of them.
You are very jaded. Why? From the way you speak you clearly aren't enjoying the hobby. That's perfectly fine, put it down, take some time off and come back in the future or not at all. Or are you feeding a complaint fetish?
GW are making better rules and a very, very fun game. Their incredible financial performance is the reward for their efforts. You certainly won't be missed if you quit, and with your outlook you can't be making a positive contribution to the community. If I felt as negatively as you do I would't stick around.
Also, enough with taking this off topic. TC is asking how the game feels to play. The answer is it's fun and easy to pick up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:23:28
The cover rules are gak. The line of sight rules are gak. It's too easy to wound and damage things, making big beasties kinda useless. The morale rules are gak. The psychic rules are handcuffed thanks to FAQs and CA changes. Army composition is basically meaningless because you can bring as much of anything as you want as the FOC has no meaning anymore (other than to provide command points, which are for a whole other layer of rules that are also gak). There are no vehicle rules. The Codices remain the worst aspect of the game as GW cannot make units useful to save themselves, leaving us with books full of things that never get taken. You'd think after 25+ years and 8 editions they'd be better at this, but apparently their staff/writer turnover rate is just high enough that the current generation never learns from the previous one.
So overall I'd say 8th is a blast to play.
Wait? What?
Yeah you heard me. I haven't had this much fun with 40k in years. The game is stupid and needs a complete re-write, but I don't feel like I'm playing something so utterly boring as 4th Ed, hopeless as 5th Ed, rushed as 6th Ed or utterly horrific as 7th Ed (formations... my God the formations...). Last edition of 40k I liked was 3rd, and whilst it was a top-heavy mess filled with so many rulebooks and FAQs that it became too unwieldy to play I still had fun with it. 8th Ed is basically that, but with a simplified rule set which makes things quicker to play. I'm having fun building lists again, I'm having fun putting together new (and long abandoned) miniatures. I'm trying new things. I'm painting my fething terrain, which is a miracle unto itself.
The one thing that 8th really has going for it is mission variety. I love the missions that 8th Ed has, from core book to CAs to the Open War cards I just got. They're great. So much variety and diversity.
If feels good to be playing again.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: If it didn't have Citadel models and 40k lore, I probably wouldn't be playing.
This is very true. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who plays 40k for the rules (except maybe Stelek... but that's going back a bit now). It's always everything else surrounding the rules.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:30:14
You guys actively push away members of the hobby you claim to love so much.
No, GW is doing that with their awful rules.
We do not work for GW. We are not paid to be their marketing team (with the possible exception of Ishagu ). Hence, we are not required to scam new players into investing large sums of money into a horribly-designed game.
People here have praised the core rules but for the life of me I can't see why. This is a game that the designers have had 8 editions to refine, yet it reads like the beta rules for the 1st edition of a game where the creators had zero prior experience designing wargames and none of them spoke a common language.
Seriously, if any other game tried to market rules of this quality at even half the prices GW charge, they'd be laughed out of the market. Yet it seems so many 40k players see it as their duty to support GW, no matter how awful their rules or how overpriced their products.
You have a lot of opinions, and I disagree with all of them.
You are very jaded. Why? From the way you speak you clearly aren't enjoying the hobby. That's perfectly fine, put it down, take some time off and come back in the future or not at all. Or are you feeding a complaint fetish?
GW are making better rules and a very, very fun game. Their incredible financial performance is the reward for their efforts. You certainly won't be missed if you quit, and with your outlook you can't be making a positive contribution to the community. If I felt as negatively as you do I would't stick around.
Better rules?!
Scuseme but the recent powerspike went over your head lad?
Also , yes he has a point ishagu, you defend gw Way too much in multiple threads and often in a manner that out it bluntly is trollish atl the very least.
At op, it mostly depends to what scenes you have access and what you want out of the game align.
If you want casual or fluffy experiences and the local scene is diehard tournament you will have a Bad experience.
Vice versa the same. Maybee you get lucky though and get a local scene in which most Players play any Kind of.the Hobby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:28:57
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Ishagu wrote: The recent power spike is NOTHING compared to what has happened in prior editions. It's all about perspective.
Is the game perfectly balanced? No
Is it fun and easy to play? Yes
That is irrelevant in regards to your first point, gw has Set the bar so low with 7th that that is nearly allways true but meaningless.
As for easy to play, i am no Fan of ultra raw bcb , but at this Stage there are undeniable too much rulessources arround period.
And that makes it not really easy to get propperly in the game.
Atleast in my opinion.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
You can buy a starter set like "Know no Fear" and play this game out of the box. The rules additions, expansions, etc are all optional for people who chose to pursue them.
Your hobby focus might be different from others. You care about balance ahead of other things, others might not care. Learn to see the hobby from more than just your narrow outlook.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:37:58
You can buy the a starter set and play this game out of the box. The rules additions, expansions, etc are all optional for people who chose to pursue them.
Your hobby focus might be different from others. You care about balance ahead of other things, others might not care. Learn to see the hobby from more than just your narrow outlook.
Hahahahahahahahahaha narrow Perspective really?
Mate i play nearly all modes of 40k.
I nearly entirely cover most Bases of the"Hobby" .
The only one twisting Here is you, whilest yes you can buy a Starter Set and play the game, comparatively to normal armies that is nearly an entirely diffrent game.
Further i have an answer to op, one which is entirely standing on it's own if you actually bothered to read.
If you don't have the local scene to Support your prefered Style of game then it is a lost cause more or less.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 10:46:56
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
You are very jaded. Why? From the way you speak you clearly aren't enjoying the hobby. That's perfectly fine, put it down, take some time off and come back in the future or not at all. Or are you feeding a complaint fetish?
By the same token, why are you here on the forums, desperately trying to convince others (and, I suspect, yourself) how much fun your're having, instead of playing the game you claim to enjoy so much?
As for why I linger, because I still have an investment in the game and I would actually like to see it improve, rather than wallowing forever in terrible design decisions.
GW are making better rules and a very, very fun game.
That is your opinion, and one I have to disagree with. If anything, I'd say a great many design decisions in 8th are the opposite of fun.
Ishagu wrote: Their incredible financial performance is the reward for their efforts.
And you wonder why I think you're being paid under the table to spout this drivel and lure in new players.
Ishagu wrote: You certainly won't be missed if you quit, and with your outlook you can't be making a positive contribution to the community. If I felt as negatively as you do I would't stick around.
Feel free to contact the administrators and ask them to ban me for wrongthink.
Also, enough with taking this off topic. TC is asking how the game feels to play. The answer is it's fun and easy to pick up.
Indeed, yes. Game is doubleplus good, comrade!
And remember, Games Workshop is watching you.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Some people are saying it’s awesome and fun (with or without problems). This is valid.
Some people are saying it’s terrible and not fun (usually due to problems). This is also valid.
It would not be helpful to the fella asking if the game is fun for everyone to paste a smile on their face and say it’s amazing—since clearly not everyone agrees with this opinion,
It would also be invalid to be 100% down on the game if we all agree there are niche cases where it can be enjoyable for everyone (and discussion can be had as to how representative of the whole game those niches are).
Personally, I’m loving 8th. I think the improvements in 8th allowed us to uncover other deeper problems in the game which pre-dated 8th, and which we’d never have been able to address if we hadn’t peeled back that first layer. Irrespective, I’m having the most fun with the hobby since I started in 6th.
But I appreciate I cultivate a particular set of play groups that let me engage in casual fluffy games, competitive/tournament games, and huge Apocalypse games as I choose... so I’m a bit spoiled in being able to focus on the aspects of the hobby that I enjoy the most at any given moment.
My feeling when playing current 40k is that it does not fit the scale
Some rules are made that you can play faster but others slow the game down
also the game uses more models than the rules are written for and still needs its fair share of house rules
From a pure gameplay feeling, for me 1000 point 8th is similar to 1750 points 5th
but I liked the faction rules up until mid 5th more than the current ones, while Index feels better than late 5th.
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
good for you, because I had been left with 5-6 models at the end of turn 2 too often to count. seen others in situations like that too. And it wasn't just initiative gets stolen situation. Normal games with people going first losing units imporant to missions scoring or being unable to keep up with how much fire power the other side has.
Karol mate, that's not a new thing. If you've only played in 8th edition you've not experienced the 'joys' of the Necron Decurion, the Eldar wind rider / wraith host, and many more besides. Honestly, it's got better.
My friend and I have been playing since the start of 6th edition. We were pretty well balanced at first - we split the Dark Vengeance box, he had the Dark Angels and I had the CSMs. Then he moved to Blood Angels and we were still good. Then he bought Eldar - the wind riders and wraith host. Our first game with his new army, I was down to 5-6 models at the end of turn *1*, and completely wiped out on turn 2. Even he was shocked.
Oh, he had Grey Knights at one point too. I think we only had one game with them, but he absolutely whipped me with them. Nemesis dreadknights teleported the length of the battlefield, killed my Daemon Prince with a single hit from its psycannon thing - Force weapons dealt Instant Death back then - and killed my Bloodthirster the next turn.
I'd be interested to see some detailed reviews and pictures of your games. As lots of people keep telling you, your environment sounds *harsh* and you're unfortunately playing what's probably the weakest army at the moment in that harsh environment. Outside of that, I really don't think 8th edition is so bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 12:28:11
The core rules are actually quite good barring a few things (true LOS as a big example). It's all the bloat and unbalanced crap thrown on top of it that makes it seemingly get worse and worse as each new book comes out.
The cover rules are gak.
The line of sight rules are gak.
It's too easy to wound and damage things, making big beasties kinda useless.
The morale rules are gak.
The psychic rules are handcuffed thanks to FAQs and CA changes.
Army composition is basically meaningless because you can bring as much of anything as you want as the FOC has no meaning anymore (other than to provide command points, which are for a whole other layer of rules that are also gak).
There are no vehicle rules.
The Codices remain the worst aspect of the game as GW cannot make units useful to save themselves, leaving us with books full of things that never get taken. You'd think after 25+ years and 8 editions they'd be better at this, but apparently their staff/writer turnover rate is just high enough that the current generation never learns from the previous one.
So overall I'd say 8th is a blast to play.
Wait? What?
Yeah you heard me. I haven't had this much fun with 40k in years. The game is stupid and needs a complete re-write, but I don't feel like I'm playing something so utterly boring as 4th Ed, hopeless as 5th Ed, rushed as 6th Ed or utterly horrific as 7th Ed (formations... my God the formations...). Last edition of 40k I liked was 3rd, and whilst it was a top-heavy mess filled with so many rulebooks and FAQs that it became too unwieldy to play I still had fun with it. 8th Ed is basically that, but with a simplified rule set which makes things quicker to play. I'm having fun building lists again, I'm having fun putting together new (and long abandoned) miniatures. I'm trying new things. I'm painting my fething terrain, which is a miracle unto itself.
The one thing that 8th really has going for it is mission variety. I love the missions that 8th Ed has, from core book to CAs to the Open War cards I just got. They're great. So much variety and diversity.
If feels good to be playing again.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: If it didn't have Citadel models and 40k lore, I probably wouldn't be playing.
This is very true. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who plays 40k for the rules (except maybe Stelek... but that's going back a bit now). It's always everything else surrounding the rules.
This is basically the only post that matters in this thread, OP.
I don't know how being as mediocre as it is, 8th is as fun to play. But it is. Is like League of Legends. A game I love to hate.
Also, I have to point out how curious is that many posters that aren't that active in the forums this days always come to this kind of posts and tell new players how horrible is everything. But the fact is, 8th is the most played and most popular edition of 40k ever. Thats a fact. A fact that I pulled out of my ass but I don't think anybody can negate it with a straight face. And I know being popular =/= being good but at the same time when a ton of people is having fun with their toys and you haven't had a easier time finding people to have fun with your toys... that matters.
If you don't like it, thats fine. Theres a ton of stuff I don't like, and others do. But at the same time, nobody is less of a person for enjoying things one doesn't. At the end of the day OP only you will know if you like how the game plays.
Spoiler:
And I have to say, I believe the change to the FOC is one of the best things in the edition. Just like the change from fantasy army composition to AoS. Being able to play an army of trolls, minotaurs, and armored company, an army full of heroes, elites, etc... has just openned so much army variety. I know many people prefer a more organized way, but I prefer FREEDOM of choice for everybody. I will never have a problem with and enemy putting 5 Bloothirsters on the table if thats what he likes. Its just adds variety of opponents, instead of being the same 2 heroes, 3 troops, 2 heavies, 2 fasts attack choices every damm game
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 12:53:02
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Wayniac wrote: The core rules are actually quite good barring a few things (true LOS as a big example). It's all the bloat and unbalanced crap thrown on top of it that makes it seemingly get worse and worse as each new book comes out.
Except that the bloat is entirely down to the shallowness of the core rules.
The designers wrote themselves into a corner from day 1 by creating a system with no depth and basically no core mechanics to build around, so the only thing expansions and army books can possibly add is bloat.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
fraser1191 wrote: The game is fun if both players play for fun. But if 1 is playing it to win then there's an imbalance for sure
a good game should not require friends to make it fun : (
My thoughts on the game are that is really quite shallow and bloated without much good though to design. Only sort of vague attempt at the narrative it’s trying to represent.
Really I do think you can have some fun, but it’s not the game that is getting you there. And I think better rules as a whole would do the game so much good. I also think the game as a whole promotes a lot of hostility and toxicity and pushes everyone into smaller groups.
Other GW games I think are a much better use of player time if you only have access to GW.
Wayniac wrote: The core rules are actually quite good barring a few things (true LOS as a big example). It's all the bloat and unbalanced crap thrown on top of it that makes it seemingly get worse and worse as each new book comes out.
Except that the bloat is entirely down to the shallowness of the core rules.
The designers wrote themselves into a corner from day 1 by creating a system with no depth and basically no core mechanics to build around, so the only thing expansions and army books can possibly add is bloat.
You sound like you're very new to the 40k hobby. This is nothing new.
Expansions add more rules, it's up to you if you want to use them or not. You don't like lots of rules? Find like-minded people and stick to using core rules+codex only for all games.
fraser1191 wrote: The game is fun if both players play for fun. But if 1 is playing it to win then there's an imbalance for sure
a good game should not require friends to make it fun : (
My thoughts on the game are that is really quite shallow and bloated without much good though to design. Only sort of vague attempt at the narrative it’s trying to represent.
Really I do think you can have some fun, but it’s not the game that is getting you there. And I think better rules as a whole would do the game so much good. I also think the game as a whole promotes a lot of hostility and toxicity and pushes everyone into smaller groups.
Other GW games I think are a much better use of player time if you only have access to GW.
Actually any game has this same issue. Two players don't have equal skill, they don't have the same aptitude for tactics or list building. If your fun comes from playing balanced games only, this is something you have to arrange. You'll typically see very close games between two good players with good lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 12:58:10
Wayniac wrote: The core rules are actually quite good barring a few things (true LOS as a big example). It's all the bloat and unbalanced crap thrown on top of it that makes it seemingly get worse and worse as each new book comes out.
Except that the bloat is entirely down to the shallowness of the core rules.
The designers wrote themselves into a corner from day 1 by creating a system with no depth and basically no core mechanics to build around, so the only thing expansions and army books can possibly add is bloat.
TBH have you tought that maybe... thats just a different way of writting a game? I mean. Is obviously not perfect. Is obviously not even pretty good. Mediocre is the best way of describing it. But theres nothing wrong in the theory of making a simple game at his core and then adding expansions and content that make it depper, but many people here is saying like theres a problem with that.
Stratagems are fun, new rules for your armies are fun, and even if I don't like when they release a codex to release a book 4 months after with new rules, stratagems, etc... they always add new and fun things to try. For example with Psychic Awakening, the Tau Book, has a ton of rules for a PROPER Farsight's Enclaves army, and just reading those rules, warlord traits, stratagems, etc... gave me a ton of ideas for lists to try on the table.
And I mean... when hasn't that been the paradigm of 40K? For all the nostalgia out there, both Fantasy and 40k, even with their rulebooks of 300 pages with 4 pages to explain how the Fear and Terror rules work, or 20 for squirmishers, were at their core, without any kind of expansion, army books, etc... extremely simple games with not that much tactical deept. At least in fantasy you had a bunch of stat blocks that could move, rotate and charge. You could flank. The rest of the game was rolling dice to see what statblock won the fight. Ah and you had magic to do a bit of damage.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 13:02:33
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Wayniac wrote: The core rules are actually quite good barring a few things (true LOS as a big example). It's all the bloat and unbalanced crap thrown on top of it that makes it seemingly get worse and worse as each new book comes out.
Sorry but I have to disagree with you, the core rules are absolutely full of counter-intuitive nonsense.
- You can only draw LoS to a single model, but you can kill the whole squad.
- A unit in woods gets a save bonus, a unit completely on the other side of those woods gets no bonus.
- You can charge a unit you can't see.
- If you charge a unit you can't see, they can fire overwatch with a Mortar but not a Flamer.
- Overwatch is determined from where you started the charge, so at 7.999" a Flamer is highly dangerous to charge and at 8.01" it does nothing.
- Indirect fire weapons suffer no inherent accuracy penalty.
- Multi-shot anti-infantry weapons are mostly better at killing tanks than low-shot anti-tank guns are.
- Two tanks can exchange cannon fire when the only LoS between them is being drawn between their radio antennas.
- Freely walking out of melee absolutely hoses melee focused armies, but there are still armies that literally cannot be built to be good at anything else.
It's kind of a train wreck.
Having said that I think part of the divergence of opinions that you see here is due to the fact that no two playgroups are actually playing the same version of 40k. Any group that doesn't do something to mitigate the lethality of the edition dissolves because the game being decided by the first turn isn't fun, how effective that something isdetermines how much fun you're going to have.
Edit: Also, I totally agree with Galas and HBMC. There is such a thing as enjoying hating something, and I really enjoy hating 40k. I loved Warmachine enough to hate it's flaws. 40k is so flawed it loops back around to being funny.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 13:27:19
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5500
2500 
). Hence, we are not required to scam new players into investing large sums of money into a horribly-designed game.
