Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This came into my head recently. Does every Chapter have a flaw, possibly as a result of their gene seed.

We know the usual.

Blood Angels and Red thirst.
Space Wolves and the whole...wolf thing.
Thousand Sons and the whole turning into spawns issue.

My question is do all chapters have a flaw just maybe not as exaggerated?

For example the Dark Angels secrecy, is that a flaw because their gene seed is essentially a tactical/intelligence one. So they have an innate desire to keep secrets as they fele themselves superior or more intelligent?

Or Ultra marines with their whole leadership follow me thing. Their flaw is that their innate desire to be in charge and lead (which admittedly the worlds they conquer live well) causes the opposition to just simply rebel stronger. They aren't capable of just accepting certain society's wanna just be on their own. As such may take what others may deem innocent lives?

I could be talking complete nonsense but just a thought.

As far as I know the only ones with inherent issues are the Wolves and Thousand Sons. Everyone else has things happen to them like Sanguinius dying or living with too much radiation (which is really dumb but there you go).
If you aren't one of those two then it'll be a cultural issue like if a Marine Chapter takes the Codex as gospel and follows it exactly then that's because they're idiots trained by idiots rather than a genetic flaw.

I think all of original Legions had their quirks - Iron Hands replacing their flesh with metal and Alpha Legion all looking alike are two more.

The vast majority of Chapters don't have a geneseed flaw. Any flaws they have (such as the DA and UM) is because of their indoctrination and mentality, not a genetic flaw.

As for the DA and UM, I don't think OP's hit it. The DA "flaw" isn't about their tactical superiority and trying to hide that. It's a self-defeating flaw instead: they're ashamed about their actions in the Heresy, which they're arguably beating themselves up with too much - many White Scars turned traitor, and you don't see them undergoing mass-repentance. However, the real tragedy is that the steps they've taken to hide the evidence of the Fallen has arguably been worst than the actual Fallen themselves. In a real world example, they've smashed a window accidentally, but then burnt down the house to hide that they broke the window.

For the Ultramarines, they don't have a desire to lead. They've simply been taught that strong leadership and government-building is very important, and that forms their combat doctrine. Same as Imperial Fists don't feel an innate desire to build walls, but their combat doctrine encourages it. Furthermore, UM worlds don't really rebel. Their worlds are far more stable than nearly any other, there isn't really much of a "we want to be self-ruled!" pushback, because the UM are arguably one of the most benevolent rulers, as SM Chapters go. The UM flaw isn't a geneseed one - it's a doctrine one, more than likely coupled with pride. They grew too reliant on the Codex, and it hit them badly with the Tyrannic Wars. They were also pretty prideful, not arrogant pride, but self-assertive pride instead. Their flaw isn't really all that bad, but it very much exists.

Not all Chapters need, or have, a geneseed defect.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The vast majority of Chapters don't have a geneseed flaw. Any flaws they have (such as the DA and UM) is because of their indoctrination and mentality, not a genetic flaw.

As for the DA and UM, I don't think OP's hit it.

I understand the lore as it currently is. Just offering an alternative.

Is it possible that what we think might not be the case.

It's fun to challenge one's own knowledge and thoughts.

It's more does the gene seed create an instinct. Some scars turned traitor yet only DA felt the need for the action's taken. Is it possible that their gene seed caused their instinct to act differently?

As stated previously. Iron Hands, does their gene seed cause an unhealthy obsession with augmentations instinctively? That could be classed as a flaw if so.

Nature vs nuture. How much of how chapters react is litanies etc. And how much is their gene seed causing them to instinctively act in a certain way?

Iron Hands liked augmetics because Ferrus had metal hands and he was their Primarch and he died before starting to deal with the issue.

DA reacted differently to Scars because they were in very different scenarios. The Scars went traitor in the middle of nowhere with just their Primarch acting as authority and they were subsequently made into suicide fighters who all died before the Heresy even ended.
The DA had a Legion size amount of Traitors take over their homeworld, Luther become Horus 2.0 and the immediate aftermath was the destruction of Caliban, the Lion vanishing and the Traitors escaping. To make that worse it was during the Scouring when the general atmosphere was extremely anti traitor and there had already been one near civil war over the Codex Astartes being made.

In the context of the time the DA reaction is much more sensible than it seems and after they covered it up they were rather locked in to a single course.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
It's more does the gene seed create an instinct. Some scars turned traitor yet only DA felt the need for the action's taken. Is it possible that their gene seed caused their instinct to act differently?

I don't believe it does, at least, with the Chapters whose geneseed doesn't have an active flaw (BA/SW, for example).

As stated previously. Iron Hands, does their gene seed cause an unhealthy obsession with augmentations instinctively? That could be classed as a flaw if so.

I don't believe that was brought on by their geneseed though - they didn't seem to have that obsession with machinery in their pre-Ferrus days as the Storm Walkers. In fact, it was Ferrus who initially taught them to be so harsh and afraid of weakness, then later realising how he'd pushed his sons to a dangerous extreme.
Similarly, Chapters like the Black Templars and Excoriators, both Imperial Fist geneseed bearers, don't really possess any preference for siege warfare.
The Mortificators, an Ultramarine successor, don't really behave much like Ultramarines either.

This contrasts to BA and SW successors, ones with confirmed geneseed 'defects', and how that's universal amongst their successors and brethren.

Basically, compare them to how their were before they met their Primarch. If they have the same flaws*, then it's a genetic one. If they don't, it's an indoctrinated one.

*The Black Rage is the exception, being a psychic curse tied to the geneseed, not an actual effect of the geneseed itself. Things like the Canis Helix/Wulfen and the Red Thirst, on the other hand, were present in the Legions before their Primarchs arrived.

Nature vs nuture. How much of how chapters react is litanies etc. And how much is their gene seed causing them to instinctively act in a certain way?

I believe a great deal of it is nurture. Someone with ostensibly Ultramarine geneseed could be inducted into the Imperial Fists no trouble, and if they weren't prejudiced against/made aware of their untoward heritage, they'd probably be none the wiser.

That's not to say that certain geneseeds aren't different. Imperial Fists do lack a Betcher's Gland, Ultramarine geneseed apparently allows Ultramarines to recover faster from injuries, Raven Guard geneseed causes Sable Brand - but the geneseed doesn't dictate their combat doctrine and personality. Things like the Imperial Fists liking sieges, the Ultramarines being strong politicians and rule-followers, Dark Angels being secretive and insular - that's not geneseed, IMO, that's their indoctrination.

There are also some chapters that have geneseed flaws that just don't matter. Like the Salamanders: their geneseed makes their skin black. I think one chapter (Imperial Fists?) has a defect that prevents their "poison-spit gland" from working... When was the last time a marine used their cobra powers anyway?

 Tiennos wrote:
There are also some chapters that have geneseed flaws that just don't matter. Like the Salamanders: their geneseed makes their skin black. I think one chapter (Imperial Fists?) has a defect that prevents their "poison-spit gland" from working... When was the last time a marine used their cobra powers anyway?

Their hibernation thing is broken as well I think but that's because they aren't really Imperial Fists.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The vast majority of Chapters don't have a geneseed flaw. Any flaws they have (such as the DA and UM) is because of their indoctrination and mentality, not a genetic flaw.

As for the DA and UM, I don't think OP's hit it. The DA "flaw" isn't about their tactical superiority and trying to hide that. It's a self-defeating flaw instead: they're ashamed about their actions in the Heresy, which they're arguably beating themselves up with too much - many White Scars turned traitor, and you don't see them undergoing mass-repentance. However, the real tragedy is that the steps they've taken to hide the evidence of the Fallen has arguably been worst than the actual Fallen themselves. In a real world example, they've smashed a window accidentally, but then burnt down the house to hide that they broke the window.

For the Ultramarines, they don't have a desire to lead. They've simply been taught that strong leadership and government-building is very important, and that forms their combat doctrine. Same as Imperial Fists don't feel an innate desire to build walls, but their combat doctrine encourages it. Furthermore, UM worlds don't really rebel. Their worlds are far more stable than nearly any other, there isn't really much of a "we want to be self-ruled!" pushback, because the UM are arguably one of the most benevolent rulers, as SM Chapters go. The UM flaw isn't a geneseed one - it's a doctrine one, more than likely coupled with pride. They grew too reliant on the Codex, and it hit them badly with the Tyrannic Wars. They were also pretty prideful, not arrogant pride, but self-assertive pride instead. Their flaw isn't really all that bad, but it very much exists.

Not all Chapters need, or have, a geneseed defect.

The Blood Angel's Red Thirst is inherent too.
The IF's desire to build walls would be hilarious if it was a genetic flaw though

"DONALD DORN'S GOING TO BUILD A WALL AND MAKE CHAOS PAY FOR IT!"

DA gene seed is the purist, according to the codex. Internally there were arguments about not allowing more successor halters to be created from the DA gene seed. As it’s tk enpurist it’s the best to use but there are concerns about the fact that all unforgiven chapters are more loyal the DA leadership than the imperial leaders.

The BA were created before sanguinus was found so it must be an inherent flaw.

I just think in some instances the science wasn’t perfect or these things are side effects of each primarch a particular dna construct. Did the emperor mean to give sanguinus wings or is that a “flaw” aswel.

Did we ever find out what the flaw was with the emperors children? That was killing them but clearly didn’t affect fulgrim

I thought the UM one was the most stable, hence why it was so widespread?

I *think* they did find a cure with the EC, and it's why they were so obsessed with purity and perfection afterwards - though I'm not completely sure if they did.

Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Salamanders and Space Wolves have active, mutant flaws, the rest have missing and faulty organs or high rejection rates with the Dark Angels being the purest, that said the Dark Angels have their secrets and aren’t keen to make successor chapters so people think the Ultramarines are the purest.

Salamanders turn black with red eyes due to their planet’s radiation and their gene seed’s overreaction in melonin production.

Blood Angels get the Red Thirst and a desire for blood or the Black Rage, a psychic reverberation of their Primarch witnessing his own death, sometimes both.

Space Wolves are mixed bag. Their gene seed itself has a fairly safe acceptance to its host and grants keener senses than even other Space Marines, as the Aspirant matures their eyes turn golden, their skin leathery and their canines more prominent, however, at any time they can be struck down by the curse of the Wulfen and what era they’re from and when in the Astartes career this happens determines how much of a death sentence this is - turning Wulfen doesn’t kill the astartes, other Space Wolves or suicidal attacks usually do that.

Thousand Sons got the Flesh Change.

Imperial Fist and Raven Guard Betcher Glands often don’t work so they can’t spit acid or eat whatever the hell they want.

War Hounds had high and deadly rejection rate so they were often recruited from death sentences - rapists, murderers, heretics ect.

White Scars have a high rejection rate but once it takes it is stable but they also tend to be suicidal gene seed flaw or cultural impacts is undetermined.

Night Lords got hyper night vision.

Iron Hands suffer a reverberation of their Primarch’s fear of weakness and replace perceived weaknesses with cybernetics.

Russ claims or jokes that the Word Bearers problem is an actual gene seed flaw rather than just a cultural impact when he says they are born to bow. Could be an actual reverberation flaw similar to the Blood Angels and Iron Hands.

Are the Black Dragons a GW official chapter, or a fan thing?

Ridiculous spiky growths from elbows and forehead ahoy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Night Lords got hyper night vision.

That isn't a flaw in their geneseed, all Nostromans have natural night vision, because Nostromo is a night world. The geneseed just makes it better, same as it makes all space marines vision better. If the Night Lords have a flaw it's that they enjoy the smell of fear. But generally their geneseed is considered highly stable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
Are the Black Dragons a GW official chapter, or a fan thing?

Ridiculous spiky growths from elbows and forehead ahoy.

Official gw. There's a pretty good bl novel about them. I forget the name.

Edit: The Death of Antagonis.

Yeah, as the name suggests the known Chapters of the Cursed Founding have... issues, which seem to stem from their geneseed.

 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, as the name suggests the known Chapters of the Cursed Founding have... issues, which seem to stem from their geneseed.

There is some speculation that the cursed founding chapters were experiments of Cawl's while working on primaris. The Black Dragons flaw that causes the bone growths also causes some to grow very large. That could point towards that speculation.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I thought the UM one was the most stable, hence why it was so widespread?

I *think* they did find a cure with the EC, and it's why they were so obsessed with purity and perfection afterwards - though I'm not completely sure if they did.

UM are just super reliable and do what they are told hence their proliferation. I think the UM gene seed had a mutation that gives you a brown nose.

I have read all the books, could anyone read ALL the books, but as far as I know the problem with the EC was not diagnosed and Fabius used supernatural ahem..chaos...ahem methods of fixing the gene seed. Fabius was already on his path to being chaos but not chaos before the rest of the chapter started to turn to chaos and was a key factor in making the choices that led down that road.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Night Lords got hyper night vision.

That isn't a flaw in their geneseed, all Nostromans have natural night vision, because Nostromo is a night world. The geneseed just makes it better, same as it makes all space marines vision better. If the Night Lords have a flaw it's that they enjoy the smell of fear. But generally their geneseed is considered highly stable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
Are the Black Dragons a GW official chapter, or a fan thing?

Ridiculous spiky growths from elbows and forehead ahoy.

Official gw. There's a pretty good bl novel about them. I forget the name.

Edit: The Death of Antagonis.

Over reactive senses are a deviance from the standard and by the Imperium’s zealous, over the top measurement systems that makes it a flaw.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Night Lords got hyper night vision.

That isn't a flaw in their geneseed, all Nostromans have natural night vision, because Nostromo is a night world. The geneseed just makes it better, same as it makes all space marines vision better. If the Night Lords have a flaw it's that they enjoy the smell of fear. But generally their geneseed is considered highly stable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
Are the Black Dragons a GW official chapter, or a fan thing?

Ridiculous spiky growths from elbows and forehead ahoy.

Official gw. There's a pretty good bl novel about them. I forget the name.

Edit: The Death of Antagonis.

Over reactive senses are a deviance from the standard and by the Imperium’s zealous, over the top measurement systems that makes it a flaw.

Yes, but the "flaw" isn't from the geneseed, it's inherent in the subjects themselves.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, I don't think that the Night Lords give a flying feth about the Imperium's standards anyway.

If the knowledge used by the emperor to create the primarchs was given to him by the chaos gods then were the flaws the result of intentionally flawed information. That would be my guess

BL writers seem to enjoy coming up with new quirks for Chapters.

White Scars go into a blood frenzy.

Every Primarch now has a "super power".

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
BL writers seem to enjoy coming up with new quirks for Chapters.

White Scars go into a blood frenzy.

Every Primarch now has a "super power".

What are these super powers, please?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/770413.page