Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2020/02/26 16:33:19
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
Why? If intercessors are more point efficient, I will take them. They are troops all the same, the fluff stating they are war gods means little once they put their foot on the table.
Why what? Apologies I thought the debate here was comparing base line troops to base line troops? not what you would take?
Or is this whole thread a complete waste of everyone's time?
5500
2500
2020/02/26 16:35:33
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Galas wrote: Is mathematically impossible as a Custodes player to eliminate a heavy infantry army of IG in less than two turns. A IG player can have 200 boots on the ground and have many, many points to spare for heavy artillery and other components.
A Custodes List literally doesn't has enough shoots to clear that, even spamming bikes and biker captains. A squad of 3 custodian guards with misericordia will kill at MAXIMUM 18 guardsmen. 6 for shooting and 12 for meele. Thats 150 aprox points killing 72 points assuming shooting from rapidfire range, meele, and literally failing 0 attacks.
And Custodian Guards are troops without deepstrike or transport (A land raider lol) that walk 6" a turn.
I'm sorry but as a Custodes Player to see a Imperial Guard player complaining about fething custodian guards?
Custodes aren't a very good army as a whole, but they are really irritating with their 2+ saves, 2+ rerolls to hit, counter-intercepting shield captains, etc. As Tyranids it's irritating that I can shoot 90 devourer shots and only remove 1 infantry model.
Thats because those models cost as much as 5-10 models of nearly any other troop of the game. Maybe stop shooting weak anti infantry shooting vs elite troops and expect to do anything? Tyranids and their Mortal Wound spam have 0 problems dealing with Custodes.
And even with FW, most of FW custodes units add anti tank to the army, not anti infantry. As I said, is nearly mathematically impossible for a Adeptus Custodes force, even using the full range of FW competitive options, to remove 200 models in less than 3 turns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/26 16:38:21
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2020/02/26 16:39:21
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
5500
2500
2020/02/26 16:41:19
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
They're both core battle-line troops. Scouts are not.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
I do not understand what you are saying.
Intercessors are in the troop category and they, in most scenarios, more point efficient than scouts or tacs. Of course people take intercessors then, hence they are the comparison group for other troops.
Or should I take point inefficient options for the sake of what, wasting our time?
2020/02/26 16:42:57
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Then lets finish with the focus on guardsmen and go over to one of the various other examples of the first post. Like genestealers reaching melee and still loosing etc.
~8700 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
2020/02/26 16:43:10
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
They're both core battle-line troops. Scouts are not.
maybe in fluff.
But the game isn't fluff. The game is points and mechanics. there is literally nothing stopping me having only scouts as my troops inn game etc etc.
Ergo from a mechanics POV you have to compare the basic. Not the fluff.
5500
2500
2020/02/26 16:45:30
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
That's why none of my comparisons on page 1 are "1 to 1" - they're comparing equivalent points. pound for pound. I took a bunch of specialist anti-elite melee units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in melee, and a bunch of shooting-only units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in shooting, including stuff like Dark Reapers, which get absolutely shellacked despite all the claims of "but muh D2 weapons." I haven' t run the numbers but I am 1000% certain you'd get the same results or less running autocannon HWTs vs intercessors as well.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/02/26 16:46:34
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
I do not understand what you are saying.
Intercessors are in the troop category and they, in most scenarios, more point efficient than scouts or tacs. Of course people take intercessors then, hence they are the comparison group for other troops.
Or should I take point inefficient options for the sake of what, wasting our time?
The whole point of this thread yes is asking how marines feel. Not intercessors, marines.
I agree that intercessors are efficient, no debates there so wasted argument on me.
my point is to get a fair comparison on like tor like equivelent. If you are comparing basic troops like guard. You gotta compare basic troops like scouts too.
Intercessors are primaris marine, troops but better. So to fairly compare them, compare them to another troops that is 1-2 levels better than the basic codex troops.
5500
2500
2020/02/26 16:46:38
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Galas wrote: Is mathematically impossible as a Custodes player to eliminate a heavy infantry army of IG in less than two turns. A IG player can have 200 boots on the ground and have many, many points to spare for heavy artillery and other components.
A Custodes List literally doesn't has enough shoots to clear that, even spamming bikes and biker captains. A squad of 3 custodian guards with misericordia will kill at MAXIMUM 18 guardsmen. 6 for shooting and 12 for meele. Thats 150 aprox points killing 72 points assuming shooting from rapidfire range, meele, and literally failing 0 attacks.
And Custodian Guards are troops without deepstrike or transport (A land raider lol) that walk 6" a turn.
I'm sorry but as a Custodes Player to see a Imperial Guard player complaining about fething custodian guards?
Custodes aren't a very good army as a whole, but they are really irritating with their 2+ saves, 2+ rerolls to hit, counter-intercepting shield captains, etc. As Tyranids it's irritating that I can shoot 90 devourer shots and only remove 1 infantry model.
Thats because those models cost as much as 5-10 models of nearly any other troop of the game. Maybe stop shooting weak anti infantry shooting vs elite troops and expect to do anything? Tyranids and their Mortal Wound spam have 0 problems dealing with Custodes.
And even with FW, most of FW custodes units add anti tank to the army, not anti infantry. As I said, is nearly mathematically impossible for a Adeptus Custodes force, even using the full range of FW competitive options, to remove 200 models in less than 3 turns.
I don't, I shoot their floaty tanks because devourers wound them just the same, but they fail saves twice as often. It's apparently better to shoot "weak anti-infantry shooting" against tanks.
I understand Tyranids don't have a problem with Custodes, because I've played against Custodes with my Tyranids plenty of time. That doesn't make them not irritating.
I'm not sure why there's an issue about removing 200 models of GEQ in three turns. Why would that even be necessary?
Pyroalchi wrote: Then lets finish with the focus on guardsmen and go over to one of the various other examples of the first post. Like genestealers reaching melee and still loosing etc.
not just "reaching melee". I did this example on a previous page: if you took 2,000 points of intercessors and 2,000 points of harlequins loaded with their best anti-marine melee weapons, deployed them 2" away from the space marines and let them charge, the harlequins would actually lose the ensuing fight.
In an actual game situation, you actually have to close the gap on the unit with the 30" range shooting weapons.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
I do not understand what you are saying.
Intercessors are in the troop category and they, in most scenarios, more point efficient than scouts or tacs. Of course people take intercessors then, hence they are the comparison group for other troops.
Or should I take point inefficient options for the sake of what, wasting our time?
The whole point of this thread yes is asking how marines feel. Not intercessors, marines.
I agree that intercessors are efficient, no debates there so wasted argument on me.
my point is to get a fair comparison on like tor like equivelent. If you are comparing basic troops like guard. You gotta compare basic troops like scouts too.
Intercessors are primaris marine, troops but better. So to fairly compare them, compare them to another troops that is 1-2 levels better than the basic codex troops.
I wasn't, actually. I threw guardsmen in there mostly because they were a bugbear unit earlier in the edition. I was trying to compare Intercessors in melee vs units that only do melee, and intercessors shooting vs units that only do shooting.
Not basic troops vs basic troops. Basic troops vs supposed "Specialist elites" from other factions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/26 16:50:05
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/02/26 16:49:48
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
That's why none of my comparisons on page 1 are "1 to 1" - they're comparing equivalent points. pound for pound. I took a bunch of specialist anti-elite melee units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in melee, and a bunch of shooting-only units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in shooting, including stuff like Dark Reapers, which get absolutely shellacked despite all the claims of "but muh D2 weapons." I haven' t run the numbers but I am 1000% certain you'd get the same results or less running autocannon HWTs vs intercessors as well.
[/spoiler]
I get that but what i'm saying is the methodology is flawed. If you truely want to compare intercessors you have to find a unit that is supposed to be the same in another codex. 1-2 levels above the basic troops but still troops. Rubric marine for instance.
5500
2500
2020/02/26 16:50:37
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
That's why none of my comparisons on page 1 are "1 to 1" - they're comparing equivalent points. pound for pound. I took a bunch of specialist anti-elite melee units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in melee, and a bunch of shooting-only units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in shooting, including stuff like Dark Reapers, which get absolutely shellacked despite all the claims of "but muh D2 weapons." I haven' t run the numbers but I am 1000% certain you'd get the same results or less running autocannon HWTs vs intercessors as well.
[/spoiler]
I get that but what i'm saying is the methodology is flawed. If you truely want to compare intercessors you have to find a unit that is supposed to be the same in another codex. 1-2 levels above the basic troops but still troops. Rubric marine for instance.
Something like Chaos Marines, Dark Reapers, Necron Immortals, like that?
Spoiler alert, they beat all those units too. I think I had all those in the OP.
EDIT: didn't run the numbers on rubric marines. 5 man rubric with the sorc casting mini-smite does 11% more damage in shooting to Intercessors than intercessors do to them, but costs 4% more points and has to make up a range gap.
So, Rubrics seem pretty equivalent to intercessors if the person playing the intercessors opts to play without chapter tactics or doctrines or a chapter master or a lieutenant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/26 16:58:32
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/02/26 16:52:43
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
I agree that intercessors are efficient, no debates there so wasted argument on me.
my point is to get a fair comparison on like tor like equivelent. If you are comparing basic troops like guard. You gotta compare basic troops like scouts too.
Intercessors are primaris marine, troops but better. So to fairly compare them, compare them to another troops that is 1-2 levels better than the basic codex troops.
Sorry, I don't understand you at all. Am I forced to take scouts or tacticals? A troop is a troop, regardless of what the fluff says.
If they wanted primaris to be elite, they could have put them in the elite category.
As for moving on to other troops, I am happy to do that. I do feel that OP already gave a lot of examples highlighting the point efficiency of intercessors when pitched against many melee specialists from other factions.
Aside from giving a long list of the point efficiency of different marine troops against other units, what else is there to say?
Is there anyone who does not think that intercessors are too point efficient? Is there anyone left who things that IH dakka isn't too point efficient?
PS - All comparisons were done in terms of point efficiency, obviously not simply miniature to miniature.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/26 16:53:39
2020/02/26 16:53:35
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
When I'm thinking about playing against Marines in 8th, I'm thinking about working around Aggressors, Leviathans and Repulsors, not Intercessors.
I am aware at this point we are theory crafting, but I just wanted to point something out.
If the enemy troops are more point efficient than yours, this means that they already won one battle.
If all the unit types in one army are more point efficient overall than yours, it means you lose the war.
Primaris marine troops are possibly the most point efficient troops across armies at many of the relevant roles (perhaps not at carpeting the board). In particular, they trade very well both with the vast majority of enemy troops, and even with some specialists from other factions (many examples of melee given earlier in the thread).
More point efficient troops means that they can deploy a lesser investment and out trade enemy troops (and sometimes even specialists).
Telling us that heavy detachments kill primaris intercessors is meaningless. Marines also have answers against heavy detachments, and for sure you won't kill those marine heavies with lasgun guards. This effectively means that your non troop types are on double duty, i.e. killing enemy troops and killing enemy specialists. This means that specialist guard (and other armies) troops have to be more point efficient than marine specialists in order to recuperate the advantage lost by the less point efficient troops.
Currently, marine Iron Hands firepower through heavy support is more point efficient than guard heavy support (the whole levies with bubbles and so on), and sure as heck marine troops are more point efficient than IG troops. This means that IH outtrade IG in all departments and that is why they have a freaking 75% win rate against astra militarum.
This is my old returning take on the current meta anyway.
The IH things is debateably an ITC thing not just rules thing. Also the key thing that bugs me about this whole arguement is you can;t compare Intercessors to guard line. They aren't the same troops. Intercessors are not the base marine troops. They are primaris marine troops. Bigger better stronger than normal marines.
If you want to compare base line marine troops to base line guard troops. Compare scouts.
That's a weird statement. Intercessors are definitely more of a baseline troop than a Scout. Tacticals and Intercessors are (now) what Marine organization is built around.
Yeah but you wanna compare the basic to the basic yes? intercessors are not the basic, not yet.
You still have mini marines and scouts.
Gotta compare equivalents, not the values that skew results.
To be clear I have no issues with the comments made about intercessors and how maybe they're a bit too efficient. But to compare them to guard troops just because they're both troops isn't a real comparison.
That's like comparing a black knight ravenwing to a genestealer cult normal biker because they're both fast attack.
That's why none of my comparisons on page 1 are "1 to 1" - they're comparing equivalent points. pound for pound. I took a bunch of specialist anti-elite melee units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in melee, and a bunch of shooting-only units and ran them against equal points of intercessors in shooting, including stuff like Dark Reapers, which get absolutely shellacked despite all the claims of "but muh D2 weapons." I haven' t run the numbers but I am 1000% certain you'd get the same results or less running autocannon HWTs vs intercessors as well.
[/spoiler]
I get that but what i'm saying is the methodology is flawed. If you truely want to compare intercessors you have to find a unit that is supposed to be the same in another codex. 1-2 levels above the basic troops but still troops. Rubric marine for instance.
Something like Chaos Marines, Dark Reapers, Necron Immortals, like that?
Spoiler alert, they beat all those units too. I think I had all those in the OP.
Okay it's clear you don't want feedback to help improve your theory and gather more accurate data (which I agree with btw just helping you compile the most accurate data you cna). Instead you wanna just whine about marines and intercessors. I get it now.
5500
2500
2020/02/26 17:03:42
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
You asked for something that I already delivered for several different factions. Which of these units would you figure would be a fair "Elevated troop vs elevated troop" comparison?
Because I can tell you, Tyranid Genestealers are a hair more efficient in melee, Scions a hair more efficient in shooting, but almost everything else the marines beat in their general "chosen mode of fighting" point for point.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/02/26 17:10:42
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
the_scotsman wrote: You asked for something that I already delivered for several different factions. Which of these units would you figure would be a fair "Elevated troop vs elevated troop" comparison?
Because I can tell you, Tyranid Genestealers are a hair more efficient in melee, Scions a hair more efficient in shooting, but almost everything else the marines beat in their general "chosen mode of fighting" point for point.
Personally, I would love to see a full comparison between intercessors and scions fighting a bunch of different things.
For example, fighting Genestealers, fighting MEQ, fighting GEQ, fighting light vehicles, heavy vehicles.
Then tanking damage from different weapon types.
All that in point per format.
2020/02/26 17:14:31
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Okay it's clear you don't want feedback to help improve your theory and gather more accurate data (which I agree with btw just helping you compile the most accurate data you cna). Instead you wanna just whine about marines and intercessors. I get it now.
If it means that much to you, why don't you do it yourself and post it?
Grey40k wrote:Wel, that's the thing being discussed here. The fact that marine troops are right now too point efficient for generalist troops.
The question then becomes which way does one go about doing that - making them more expensive in points, or weaker in power?
The fluff idea that a marine is 10 normal troops 100 (or whatever this has been inflated to throughout the years) is completely impractical in the tabletop. Why? Because to achieve this and not obliterate the possibility of the other armies being played (no, hundreds of guardsmen are not feasible), then what ends up happening is that the marine needs to be more point efficient. Once that happens, balance disappears.
Well, not unless every other army's elite forces are made equally as efficient.
Marines being point efficient is fine. Everyone else being point inefficient isn't.
Basically, I propose making specialist units more powerful, or making Marines more expensive, instead of making Marines weaker or everyone else cheaper.
I'd rather see Marines stay as an elite army than see Tacticals and Intercessors treated like a horde.
Easy, weaker in power. The solution: no Super Doctrines is a start.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/02/26 18:04:56
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Bottom line: marines feel too elite on their turn and not elite enough on the opponent's turn. That's my take on it overall without getting into too many weeds.
2020/02/26 18:11:23
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Martel732 wrote: Bottom line: marines feel too elite on their turn and not elite enough on the opponent's turn. That's my take on it overall without getting into too many weeds.
GW: Good point, good point. Oh, I know, we'll just not let the opponent have a turn, that'll sort out the Marines feeling elite enough. We'll make sure to nerf them though so they don't feel too elite... hmm... I think we'll take away ATSKNF, then give them +2 LD instead. That's a nerf right?
2020/02/26 18:15:34
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Martel732 wrote: Bottom line: marines feel too elite on their turn and not elite enough on the opponent's turn. That's my take on it overall without getting into too many weeds.
GW: Good point, good point. Oh, I know, we'll just not let the opponent have a turn, that'll sort out the Marines feeling elite enough. We'll make sure to nerf them though so they don't feel too elite... hmm... I think we'll take away ATSKNF, then give them +2 LD instead. That's a nerf right?
GW turned this up to 11 and broke off the knob for the GK.
2020/02/26 18:36:42
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Martel732 wrote: Bottom line: marines feel too elite on their turn and not elite enough on the opponent's turn. That's my take on it overall without getting into too many weeds.
100% agreed. I'd like to see marines have a defence against AP-1. I played the new sisters using that as their chapter tactic and it made a huge difference, actually.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2027/03/21 21:32:28
Subject: Re:Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
As far as I can see from the example in the first post, three of the melee units kicked the Intercessors to bits (Daemonettes, Boyz, and Bloodletters) and three got kicked to bits (Howling Banshees, Harlequins, and Striking Scorpions). Of the latter three, Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees have been synonymous with "pathetic melee units" for the last four editions. What is this supposed to prove, exactly?
5 Warp Talons vs. 5 Intercessors (95 points vs. 85 points, so Intercessors are a little cheaper):
Spoiler:
Warp Talons charge:
21 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+ with rerolls, AP-2. 21*(2/3)*(3/4)*(2/3)=7
That's 3.5 dead Intercessors, or 59.5 points lost.
The Sergeant and his remaining buddy punch back.
5 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP0. 5*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)=0.555...
That's slightly more than half a dead Warp Talons, or around 9.5 points lost. That's a pretty convincing victory for the Warp Talons.
Intercessors charge:
Assuming that the Intercessors are running Bolt Rifles:
10 shots, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP-1. 10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)=1.666...
That's 1.666... dead Warp Talons, followed up by:
16 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP0. 16*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)=1.777...
That's 1.777 dead Warp Talons, added to the previous we get a total of 3.444... dead Warp Talons or slightly more than 58.555... dead points of Warp Talons.
If we assume that 2 Warp Talons survive, they strike back with 7 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+ with rerolls, AP.2. 7*(2/3)*(3/4)*(2/3)=2.333.
That's one and a third dead Primaris Marine, or 19.833... points. A convincing victory for the Intercessors, albeit not by the same margin as the Warp Talons beat them above.
The Warp Talons kick the crap out of Primaris Marines if they get the charge, whereas they get the crap kicked out of them if they get shot and charged.
3 Shining Spears (90 points) vs. 6 Intercessors (85 points, so very slight edge to Intercessors)
Spoiler:
Shining Spears charge Assuming outside of 6" range for the Laser Lance shooting attack:
12 Shuriken Catapult Shots, S4 AP0 with AP-3 on 6s to wound. I'll split after the hits to make the 6s to wound more obvious. BS3+. 12*(2/3)*(1/2)=4 wounds. 5/6 of these wounds are AP0: 4*(5/6)*(2/3)=2.222 wounds. 1/6 of the wounds are AP-3: 4*(1/6)*(5/6)=0.555... Adding the two together, we get 2.777... wounds or slightly less than 1½ dead Intercessors.
Intercessors Overwatch (assuming Bolt Rifles):
8 shots, S4, AP-1, BS6+: 8*(1/6)*(1/2)*(1/2)=0.333...
That's one sixth of a dead Shining Spear.
Shining Spears attack, 6 attacks WS3+ S6 AP-4 D2. 6*(2/3)*(2/3)=2.666... Assuming that the .666 wounds finishes off the wounded Intercessor, we're now at just the Sergeant remaining, with 4 dead Intercessors netting the Shining Spears 68 points killed.
In total, we're up to 0.666... wounds to the Shining Spears. That's 0.333... of a killed model, or 10 points. A convincing win for the Shining Spears.
Intercessors charge:
Assuming that the Intercessors are running Bolt Rifles:
10 shots, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP-1. 10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)=1.666...
That's 0.833... dead Shining Spears.
Spears Overwatch:
12 Shuriken Catapult Shots, S4 AP0 with AP-3 on 6s to wound. I'll split after the hits to make the 6s to wound more obvious. BS6+. 12*(1/6)*(1/2)=1 wound. 5/6 of this wound is AP0: 1*(5/6)*(2/3)=0.555...wounds. 1/6 of the wound is AP-3: 1*(1/6)*(5/6)=0.138... Adding the two together, we get 0.694... wounds or slightly less than ½ dead Intercessors.
Discounting Laser Lances for Overwatch since 6" is pretty damn short.
Intercessors attack. 16 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP0. 16*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)=1.777... Added to the earlier, that's 2.61 wounds total, or 39.15 points slain.
The remaining two Shining Spears hit back:
4 attacks WS3+ S3 AP-4 D2. 4*(1/3)*(2/3)=0.888... That's 0.888 of an Intercessor, for a total of one dead Intercessor or 17 points slain. A win for hte Intercessors, but not the blowouts we've seen so far.
5 Khorne Berzekers with Icon and Chainaxe/Chainsword vs. 5 Intercessors (90 points vs. 85 points, so slight edge to Intercessors).
Berzerkers attack, assuming no interrupt stratagem:
31 Chainaxe Attacks, S6 AP-1 WS3+: 31*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)=5.1666... wounds.
10 Chainsword Attacks, S5 AP0 WS3+: 10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(2/3)*=1.111... wounds.
That's 6.277... wounds or more than 3 dead Intercessors, 51 points killed.
The Sergeant and his remaining buddy punch back.
5 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP0. 5*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)=0.555... Added to the previous, that's 0.971... dead Berzerkers, or 17.478 points killed. A victory for the Khorne Berzerkers for sure.
Intercessors charge:
Assuming that the Intercessors are running Bolt Rifles:
10 shots, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP-1. 10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)=1.666...
That's 1.666... dead Berzerkers, followed up by:
16 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, AP0. 16*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/3)=1.777...
That's 1.777 dead Berzerkers, added to the previous we get a total of 3.444... dead Berzerkers or 61.992... dead points of Berzerkers.
The Berzerker Champion and his buddy punch back:
10 Chainaxe Attacks, S6 AP-1 WS3+: 10*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2)=1.666... wounds
4 Chainsword Attacks, S5 AP0 WS3+: 4*(2/3)*(1/2)*(2/3)*=0.444... wounds.
In total 2.111... wounds or 17.944... points killed in return. A victory for the Intercessors.
7 actual, non-.poop Genestealers vs. 5 Intercessors (84 points vs. 85 points, most miniscule advantage possible for Genestealers)
Genestealers attack:
21 attacks at WS3+ S4 AP-1 with 6s to wound being AP-4. I'll split the wounds up for ease of reading. 21*(2/3)*(1/2)=7. Of these 5/6 are AP-1 and 1/6 are AP-4. (7*(5/6)*(1/2))+(7*(1/6))=4.083... or just slightly more than 2 dead Intercessors (34 points).
Three remaining Intercessors fight back:
7 attacks, WS3+, S4 AP0: 7*(2/3)*(1/2)*(2/3)=1.555... or 1.555... dead Genestealers, which is 18 points slain.
Even the maligned Genestealers actually win combat by killing almost twice their points in Intercessors if they get the charge, assuming we're using 12 PPM Genestealers and not 15 PPM.
If the Intercessors get the charge, they win. I'm not going to bother.
I could keep going with a bunch of other melee units that aren't awful, but the conclusion is that in general dedicated melee units that aren't awful against everything kill Intercessors on the charge, but die if the Intercessors get to shoot and charge them first. Intercessors have no bonus to movement or charges though.
What's the point of this particular thought exercise again? Proving that Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions are poop? Didn't everyone already know that?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2020/02/26 19:34:20
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
It ain't just Marines that feel weak on your opponent's turn. This whole game is geared towards being the "killiest". Everyone is scooping models off the table by the bucket.
2020/02/26 19:45:43
Subject: Just how "Elite" are marines supposed to feel?
Slayer-Fan123 785780 10726750 wrote:
Easy, weaker in power. The solution: no Super Doctrines is a start.
So armies that have doctrins as their fix to a bad codex, revert to being bad again? no thank you.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
5500
2500 
~8700 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200 
