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As outline here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785881.page

Special points:
-Doctrines change , no matter you want it or not
-Dreadnought stratagem is now -1 damage, no cumulative
-IronHands intercessors can't tank wounds for vehicles
-No more infiltrating Centurions

Marines just got FAQ nerfed. I thought I'd make this post in 40k General Discussion to discuss the implications for Space Marines and the game as a whole. If this is too much like a duplicate thread of the one in N&R feel free to lock it.

Well, looks like Dread castles will be a thing of the past, but I'd like to see how the next couple tourneys play out before passing judgement on whether or not the nerfs were enough (or too much).

Well the doctrines got also kicked, so we will probs see Soup again.

Otoh, the IH castle atleast got a kick in the shin.

Wow. Thanks iron hands. Guess my ultramarines will sit on the shelf for another 2 years

The Doctrine change is how I would have changed it myself. You get a round in Devastator. The option to have a couple rounds in Tactical but must progress to Assault at some point and stay there. Pretty much how I used it with the exception that I would sometimes decide to stay in Tactical round 4, though; I usually had to think about it.

I don't think this is a enough to break up the space marine castle just yet, but I am glad Bolter Discipline hasn't been re-worked just yet so all these changes can be digested to see where the game is at now.

I dunno, Devastator Doctrine got kicked in the shin, sure, but you can still be in Tactical on turn 2 and 3, meaning Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Ultramarines didn't get hit as bad, while White Scars and Black Templars barely if at all care. It's a good nerf targetting IF and IH.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Wow. Thanks iron hands. Guess my ultramarines will sit on the shelf for another 2 years

UM still have at least two methods of getting units into Tactical Doctrine (warlord trait, and a UM specific stratagem).

As a UM player, I'm not really fussed. I didn't really like Doctrines anyways, so I'm unaffected by this.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I dunno, Devastator Doctrine got kicked in the shin, sure, but you can still be in Tactical on turn 2 and 3, meaning Salamanders, Raven Guard, and Ultramarines didn't get hit as bad, while White Scars and Black Templars barely if at all care. It's a good nerf targetting IF and IH.

tbf that is 2 / 3 of the problem chapters right there.

And ravenguard got covered with the centurion denial, thank god for that btw.

Still, i feel like gw gaked the bed quite massively with the whole SM schtick.

Wow. Totally unexpected timing on this. I guess they didn't want to run Adepticon as is.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Wow. Totally unexpected timing on this. I guess they didn't want to run Adepticon as is.

TBF the recent tournaments were getting a bit , monotone, in colour and rules didn't they

Not the best advertisement

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Wow. Thanks iron hands. Guess my ultramarines will sit on the shelf for another 2 years

UM still have at least two methods of getting units into Tactical Doctrine (warlord trait, and a UM specific stratagem).

As a UM player, I'm not really fussed. I didn't really like Doctrines anyways, so I'm unaffected by this.

I'm not broken up over the doctrines my marines never live past turn 2 but I needed the dreadnought support. I needed that to keep mine from getting trashed turn 1

The rule changes seem good at a first read. Mainly hitting the outlier Chapters.

For my own Marine detachment nothing changes.

Excellent changes overall.

UM keep what makes them "unique" : their flexiblity. They keep their tools to manipulate doctrines.

The outliers (IF and IH) are the most heavily impacted Chapters affected by this FAQ which is a good thing since they were clearly overperforming.

RG are only nerfed regarding Centurions.

BA, WS, BT and Salamanders don't care about these changes for the most part.

DA might be in a worse position but I haven't see them in games since Ritual of the Damned was released thus I don't know if they are really that much impacted.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Wow. Thanks iron hands. Guess my ultramarines will sit on the shelf for another 2 years

UM still have at least two methods of getting units into Tactical Doctrine (warlord trait, and a UM specific stratagem).

As a UM player, I'm not really fussed. I didn't really like Doctrines anyways, so I'm unaffected by this.

I'm not broken up over the doctrines my marines never live past turn 2 but I needed the dreadnought support. I needed that to keep mine from getting trashed turn 1

With respect, that seems more like a list issue or play style issue. Address what is getitng stomped and change it up or adapt strategy.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Wow. Thanks iron hands. Guess my ultramarines will sit on the shelf for another 2 years

Ultramarines are forced to move from tactical on turn 4 right? If you haven't won game by then you have lost it already and it won't matter.

Dark Angels aren't that affected. Even if their super doctrine was in Devastator, it was also the only one that affected all weapon tipes.

Also, the extra range was only usefull in turn 1, with a couple of units in turn 2 at maximun. It sucks for things like Talonmasters but those units will still be useful. Dark Angel armies now will use much more rapid fire and assault weapons, to benefit from the extra range in turn 1, and then change to Tactical for the extra AP.

I think the only thing they did wrong with this was deleting the doctrine change stratagem. A simple change in cost could'a fixed that.

So they basically just made Ultramarines and Raven Guard the strongest as they get the most benefit with two turns. Good job, GW. You did the same thing you tried to avoid: favor certain armies again.

Just fething delete Super Doctrines. Why is it so hard for them to admit they're a fething awful idea and they need to be let go of?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the only thing they did wrong with this was deleting the doctrine change stratagem. A simple change in cost could'a fixed that.

Especially when you're allowed to be in the Tactical one for two turns for no apparent reason than just favoritism.

Ultramarines are now comparatively better because they can re-set the doctrine cycle.
Still, these are MASSIVE nerfs to the faction.

@Slayer-Fan

lol what are you talking about? Even the Ultramarines are strictly worse than prior to these changes, and they had a win rate below 50% as they were before.

UM aren't overperforming.

Selfcontrol wrote:
UM aren't overperforming.

Correct, they have a win rate just below 50%.

If people complain about them it's pretty stupid.

WIll it make playing against marines feel fair for us Xeno players? Good god no, they still have about 4 times the rules and abilities my army will ever have!

But it will make it not as one sided. Doubt my Daemons are going to be any better and my Tyranids still aren't tough enough to survive mass Stalker/ Bolter fire but it's a start.

This is a serious blow for IH, especially for the flyer and land speeder lists.

Just looked at the wording. From turn 4 every marine army is assault doctrine, with no way to change it.

Wow, big nerfs.

 Ishagu wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
UM aren't overperforming.

Correct, they have a win rate just below 50%.

If people complain about them it's pretty stupid.

And um players can't complain about being the worst chapter anymore.

 Ishagu wrote:
Just looked at the wording. From turn 4 every marine army is assault doctrine, with no way to change it.

Wow, big nerfs.

The only army i own that lasts into turn 4 intact ( read 200 losses about from 300 ) is a horde of R&H couppled with noctilith crowns. I seriosuly doub that this is a real nerf for SM.

 Ishagu wrote:
Just looked at the wording. From turn 4 every marine army is assault doctrine, with no way to change it.

Wow, big nerfs.

"After the game has been largely decided, your Space Marines have to be in assault doctrine."

Spooky indeed.

It is a much bigger nerf than you imagine.

Games that make it to the last turns, have groups of units here and there holding points, and a couple of killers trying to remove as many as possible before the end of the game. Movement is key in those turns, and removing the "Move and shoot" of IH from those turns hurts a lot.

 Ishagu wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
UM aren't overperforming.

Correct, they have a win rate just below 50%.

If people complain about them it's pretty stupid.

You can make an argument that the Marine players that cared about winning all fielded IH's so all the Ultramarines were players who don't care about winning, driving down their win %.

Anyway glad GW is willing to step outside of the faq cycle to adress Marines, not sure if it will be enough but its a good step in the right direction.

Guess GW will sell a lot of Aggressor Boxes as Ravenguard retool their Centurion lists lol.

UM can get back into Tactical with two units, one via a Warlord Trait, and another UM specific stratagem - and realistically by Turn 4, you'll know what 2 units you want to use this ability on.