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 doctortom wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
It's irrelevant whether a resurrected unit is set up or returned. What matters is if that resurrected unit is set up as reinforcements, because omni scrambler only works against reinforcements. Otherwise omni scrambler would not allow a unit to disembark, because a disembarking unit is set up as well.

Actually it's not irrelevant. The reinforcements section says "Units that are set up in this manner". "return to play" is not a phrase used in relation to reinforcements.

Ok, it's relevant if a unit is set up, or if it's set up as reinforcements, because omni scrambler only works against units set up as reinforcements.

And Celestine is NOT set up, she “returns to play”.

 alextroy wrote:
And Celestine is NOT set up, she “returns to play”.

Could you please quote the rule in its entirety?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And Celestine is NOT set up, she “returns to play”.

Could you please quote the rule in its entirety?

I could provide you with the German wording, but it translates to "returns to play". I don't have an English codex.

nekooni wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And Celestine is NOT set up, she “returns to play”.

Could you please quote the rule in its entirety?

I could provide you with the German wording, but it translates to "returns to play". I don't have an English codex.

It has been known before where rules read different depending on language.

I do know in CA19 and earlier Celstines rules said "Set Up" not "Return to play".

However I don;t play Sisters so I do not have the most recent codex so I can't quote.

The actual rule for Celestine from the codex:

 deviantduck wrote:
Miraculous Intervention: The first time this model is destroyed, roll one D6 at the end of the phase. On a 2+ return this model to play with all its wounds remaining, placing it as close as possible to its previous position and more than 1" away from any enemy.

 p5freak wrote:
It's irrelevant whether a resurrected unit is set up or returned. What matters is if that resurrected unit is set up as reinforcements, because omni scrambler only works against reinforcements. Otherwise omni scrambler would not allow a unit to disembark, because a disembarking unit is set up as well.

Correct.


I wouldn't think you can disembark within 12" of an Omni Scrambler. That seems pretty obvious.

But unlike most reinforcement set-ups, regular disembark allows a unit to move afterwards, so it's rarely an issue (unless you explode a transport near Infiltrators).

 alextroy wrote:
The actual rule for Celestine from the codex:

 deviantduck wrote:
Miraculous Intervention: The first time this model is destroyed, roll one D6 at the end of the phase. On a 2+ return this model to play with all its wounds remaining, placing it as close as possible to its previous position and more than 1" away from any enemy.

Thanks.

Given that wording, I'd suggest that this interaction wouldn't be impacted by Omni-Scramblers.

Mostly because no rule (singular) or ability (singular) caused the unit to be removed AND set up
The rule that removed the unit is not the same unit that returns the unit, so it can never trigger from a "resurrect" style ability

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

Celestine is a unit to herself. - Check

Sure, but that is irrelevant.

The model of celestine is removed from the table. - Check.

While she is removed from the table, she does not have a rule that removes her from the table. Subtle but important difference.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

the first time celestine is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a d6. On a 2+, SET HER UP again at the end of the phase

she is being set up from off the table.

Irrelevant.

The Unit of Celestine comes back at end of phase and is set up. - check

Irrelevant.

From RAW she counts as reinforcements.

as I have shown, this is false because she does not have a rule that "causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up" Her rule does not remove her from play.

Remember I have stated twice already I would not play it this way as the intent is clear. But RAW she would fall to the restriction of the infiltrators, as would any other whole units/characters that fall to similar abilities.

Only exception is things like crons[sic] where the whole unit isn't gone as the UNIT is penalized not indipendant[sic] models.

You should not play like that because the way you have claimed is not correct, as I have proven.

Can you disembark from transports near (within 12" of) an Omni-Scrambler?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you disembark from transports near (within 12" of) an Omni-Scrambler?

RAW, units disembarking from a transport are reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid turn, thats the definition of reinforcements, according to the core rules. But if they are reinforcements, they wouldnt be able to disembark T1 in matched play, because units not deployed on the battlefield cannot arrive T1, according to tactical reserves.

Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases.

Tactical reserves
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

I do wish you’d stop posting really bad hot takes.

Yep, it's an you supported position.

 p5freak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you disembark from transports near (within 12" of) an Omni-Scrambler?

RAW, units disembarking from a transport are reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid turn, thats the definition of reinforcements, according to the core rules. But if they are reinforcements, they wouldnt be able to disembark T1 in matched play, because units not deployed on the battlefield cannot arrive T1, according to tactical reserves.

Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases.

Tactical reserves
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

I disagree with units coming out of transports counting as reinforcements because it says "teleporters, grav chutes, or other, more esoteric means" in the definition, and transports are none of those things (they are not teleporters, not grav chutes, and are not more esoteric).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I disagree with units coming out of transports counting as reinforcements because it says "teleporters, grav chutes, or other, more esoteric means" in the definition, and transports are none of those things (they are not teleporters, not grav chutes, and are not more esoteric).

It say SOMETIMES teleporters and esoteric means (and sometimes not by esoteric means).

They are still set up mid-turn. Thus they are reinforcements.

JohnnyHell wrote:I do wish you’d stop posting really bad hot takes.

GW wrote those pathetic rules, complain to them. They make new rules without thinking updating old ones.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I disagree with units coming out of transports counting as reinforcements because it says "teleporters, grav chutes, or other, more esoteric means" in the definition, and transports are none of those things (they are not teleporters, not grav chutes, and are not more esoteric).

I suggest you reread the reinforcements rule. It says sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes, or other, more esoteric means. Sometimes is not always.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


I disagree with units coming out of transports counting as reinforcements because it says "teleporters, grav chutes, or other, more esoteric means" in the definition, and transports are none of those things (they are not teleporters, not grav chutes, and are not more esoteric).

It say SOMETIMES teleporters and esoteric means (and sometimes not by esoteric means).

They are still set up mid-turn. Thus they are reinforcements.

This is the quote, right?:
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."

Does a unit embarked in a transport have an ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn?

I thought units in transports couldn't use abilities?

And even if disembarking units, hypothetically, weren‘t reinforcements, by being set up mid-game they are treated as if they were reinforcements in relation to rules like Omni-Scramblers as per the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


This is the quote, right?:
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."

Does a unit embarked in a transport have an ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn?

I thought units in transports couldn't use abilities?

If you define abilities narrowly like this, units deepstriking with, say, stratagems such as Eldar, aren’t reinforcements either as those aren’t on the abilities section of the Datasheet. So they could come in turn 1 too? And ignore Omni-Scramblers, Auspex Scan, etc..?

Sunny Side Up wrote:
And even if disembarking units, hypothetically, weren‘t reinforcements, by being set up mid-game they are treated as if they were reinforcements in relation to rules like Omni-Scramblers as per the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


This is the quote, right?:
"Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."

Does a unit embarked in a transport have an ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn?

I thought units in transports couldn't use abilities?

If you define abilities narrowly like this, units deepstriking with, say, stratagems such as Eldar, aren’t reinforcements either as those aren’t on the abilities section of the Datasheet. So they could come in turn 1 too? And ignore Omni-Scramblers, Auspex Scan, etc..

I mean if the option is to "not allow units to disembark" or "allow some units to deep strike Turn 1" then I'd probably quit playing this game and find one with more reasonable rules and players pick the latter.

If you are interpreting the Reinforcements rule so broadly that it includes units disembarking from transports, than methinks making it a bit too narrow instead is only fair.

 p5freak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you disembark from transports near (within 12" of) an Omni-Scrambler?

RAW, units disembarking from a transport are reinforcements. They are set up on the battlefield mid turn, thats the definition of reinforcements, according to the core rules. But if they are reinforcements, they wouldnt be able to disembark T1 in matched play, because units not deployed on the battlefield cannot arrive T1, according to tactical reserves.

Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases.

Tactical reserves
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

If they're reinforcements when disembarking, then Auspex Scan would work on them. GW has made clear in a FAQ that you can't use it, say, on a unit disembarking from a drop pod, which means the disembarking part is not treating them as being reinforcements.

Does anyone actually play disembarked units as reinforcements? Cuz I'd be perfectly happy to have transports that are immune to be destroyed on the first turn.

 flandarz wrote:
Does anyone actually play disembarked units as reinforcements? Cuz I'd be perfectly happy to have transports that are immune to be destroyed on the first turn.

I do, and how did you come to that conclusion? What it means is if you destroy a transport in your Alpha Strike, the unit inside dies because it cannot legally dembark.

That's adding to the rules. The rules state that 1) when a transport is destroyed, all embarked units must disembark and 2) any disembarking model must be set up within 3" of the transport and more than 1" away from enemy models; any model that cannot do so is destroyed.

No where does it say that the unit/model is destroyed for any other reason than the above (or if you roll a 6). Those are the only legal requirements to a disembark. Neither do the reinforcements rules state anything about destroying a unit that cannot be played to the field, though if it's past Round 3 then they can no longer be deployed.

The only logical way that both the "reinforcements cannot be deployed on turn 1" and "the unit must be deployed if the transport is destroyed" rules can be played is that a transport cannot be destroyed during Round 1. Otherwise, you either have to homerule a "the unit is destroyed" clause, or you run into an unresolvable rules situation.

 flandarz wrote:
Does anyone actually play disembarked units as reinforcements?

No one should, because disembarked units are not reinforcements since the unit that is disembarking does not " have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn" There is nothing in any unit's abilities that allow them to disembark from a transport.

Those rules are in the base rules, and as such not an ability of any specific unit.

Also the reinforcement rules say "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" Which is not the case for disembarking units.

Further proof that disembarking does not count for reinforcements.

 p5freak wrote:

JohnnyHell wrote:I do wish you’d stop posting really bad hot takes.

GW wrote those pathetic rules, complain to them. They make new rules without thinking updating old ones.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I disagree with units coming out of transports counting as reinforcements because it says "teleporters, grav chutes, or other, more esoteric means" in the definition, and transports are none of those things (they are not teleporters, not grav chutes, and are not more esoteric).

I suggest you reread the reinforcements rule. It says sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes, or other, more esoteric means. Sometimes is not always.

So we can't disembark units T1? And units that disembark cannot move after disembarking within 3 inches of their transport, because then they'd have to move which they're not allowed after arriving from reserves, right?

I think BCB's assault weapon hot take has better legs than this.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Does anyone actually play disembarked units as reinforcements? Cuz I'd be perfectly happy to have transports that are immune to be destroyed on the first turn.

I do, and how did you come to that conclusion? What it means is if you destroy a transport in your Alpha Strike, the unit inside dies because it cannot legally dembark.

Flandarz, outside of apparently BaconCatBug and p5freak no, no-one does. That reply is just contrarian for the sake of it.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
From RAW she counts as reinforcements.

You've asserted this, but I don't think you've proven it.

Aren't "Reinforcements" a specific part of the rules?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
From RAW she counts as reinforcements.

You've asserted this, but I don't think you've proven it.

Aren't "Reinforcements" a specific part of the rules?

If only...

GW please publish a glossary!

 Stux wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
From RAW she counts as reinforcements.

You've asserted this, but I don't think you've proven it.

Aren't "Reinforcements" a specific part of the rules?

If only...

GW please publish a glossary!

Yep, This is why i was saying i wouldn;t play it that way with opponents. But to be "counted as" reinforcements you simply need to be off the table and then set up mid turn. That's it, that's why things like da jump or gate of infinity make the units "count as" reinforcements. They don;t fall into other restrictions like the turn 2 thing. But they can trigger other abilities turn 1 because of it such as the necron sniper thing.

This is why i was saying with Celestine because in CA19 and earlier her rules did say "set up". But i don;t play sisters so if the current codex states "return to play" then yeah she isn't being set up.

This is where BCB and P5 are coming from. Because units in transports do unfortunately RAW classify for the vague reinforcements rule. They are not yet on the table and arrive mid turn by being "set up".

So this is one of those things if you see your opponent has infiltrators maybe discuss before hand if you have any revive abilities that are "set up" or transports. It's up to the both of you if you wanna play strictly to RAW like BCB. Nothing wrong with that same as nothing wrong with going, "that's stupid, RAI is clear they don't fall to that". If you don't think your gunna have a fun game with your opponent then it's simple don;t play them.

If you're in a tourni maybe ask this to the TO before the game starts so you have clarification and oyu can play around it and not be caught out.