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I'm gonna weigh in as a Chaos Knights Player. It's a perfectly legal army to play. So as far as I'm concerned if you don't want to play me you're being the bad guy. There is so many ways I've lost, even when I should have won. Because the opponent was a good player or I messed up. That being said, I won't play my knights against new players unkess they want to. Because I don't expect new players to understand the interctions or how to beat them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 13:27:32
I told all my opponents that there is a chance of meeting my LoW if they face me unless they ask me not to bring him. New players are an exception from this, as their collections usually lack the means to kill LoW models.
Sometimes I am asked to not bring a LoW for single games for any reason, I respect those wishes. Usually this is because people are running a fluff list, want to try something that most likely can't handle them('zerker army), want to play specific missions which would be unhinged by such a model being present or simply don't want to play a game that's centered around killing a LoW.
When using a LoW, I will not warn or tell my opponent in advance. If you tell someone you are bringing Mortarion, they will tailor their army to kill Mortarion, even if just subconsciously.. If you then don't bring you LoW, they'll be annoyed. If I tell them that I won't be bringing Mortarion and bring him anyways, they'll be more than that. So the only answer people ever get is "Maybe". That way they know to plan for killing him, but also for him not showing up. Obviously, this only works if you don't play him every time The positive side effect is that some of them will finally bring enough anti-tank to handle DG daemon engines instead of getting steamrolled by them all the time.
This way I can ensure that my opponent is having fun, while I'm still having fun playing my LoW from time to time. Win-Win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 13:36:15
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
If you have any LoW models then I expect you to use at least one in any game of any value. LoW are awesome, I use my ork Stompa almost every game. Everyone loves him(?)!
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
"No one minds when I field the worst LoW in the game!"
Personally, I wouldn't want to play against a LoW in any game that's less than 1500 pts. It's a bit difficult to field enough anti-armour at that level, unless you're skewing towards it. Otherwise? S'all good, playa.
Not Online!!! wrote: it's a question about having the tools to atleast be able to deal with each others army.
F.e. i also would never subject a knight pure player to my 200 man renegade guard build for the simple fact that it is more or less a forgone conclusion due to objectives.
Basically to get an interesting list i'd avoid skew lists of anykind and superheavies are skew par excellence.
This. If you're not giving your opponent a heads up in advance, skew lists in general are going to lead to a bad time. Something like a knight can require more anti-tank than a 1,000 or 1,500 point TAC list is likely to bring. Personally, I feel that Lords of War and flyers are especially frustrating forms of skew because they tend to have above-average durability. If I'm getting stat checked by a horde, there's at least some satsifaction in watching the pile of enemy bodies grow.
Some additional random thoughts:
* Lists with something like a knight can be more okay if the rest of your list is pretty subpar.
* Even if an all knight list is prone to losing against more well-rounded lists, the win isn't necessarily a fun experience. "Little stuff versus superheavies" is a very different game from 40k without Lords of War. Not everyone enjoys tossing corpses onto an objective while being unable to efficiently damage the enemy.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
There is no etiquette for using them. Most of them suck, in fact, so you'd be bringing your list down using them. Some people just think they're overpowered with no math to back them up and get scared of anything bigger than a Rhino.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Not Online!!! wrote: it's a question about having the tools to atleast be able to deal with each others army.
F.e. i also would never subject a knight pure player to my 200 man renegade guard build for the simple fact that it is more or less a forgone conclusion due to objectives.
Basically to get an interesting list i'd avoid skew lists of anykind and superheavies are skew par excellence.
This. If you're not giving your opponent a heads up in advance, skew lists in general are going to lead to a bad time. Something like a knight can require more anti-tank than a 1,000 or 1,500 point TAC list is likely to bring. Personally, I feel that Lords of War and flyers are especially frustrating forms of skew because they tend to have above-average durability. If I'm getting stat checked by a horde, there's at least some satsifaction in watching the pile of enemy bodies grow.
Some additional random thoughts:
* Lists with something like a knight can be more okay if the rest of your list is pretty subpar.
* Even if an all knight list is prone to losing against more well-rounded lists, the win isn't necessarily a fun experience. "Little stuff versus superheavies" is a very different game from 40k without Lords of War. Not everyone enjoys tossing corpses onto an objective while being unable to efficiently damage the enemy.
Little stuff usually just wins on resilience, though. My experience with SH units in smaller games is that they're just a serious liability, since they're more destructive than they are survivable but can't really engage a whole lot of targets meaningfully simultaneously. A Shadowsword zaps one thing really dead, and a Knight can only shoot at 1 or 2 targets meaningfully too. Meanwhile, both basically have the defensive properties of a pair of Leman Russes, which present two targets, and can "eat" excess damage when they die [and can be cheaper too]. SH units' firepower advantage doesn't really make them the different in small games if they don't have enough support.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There is no etiquette for using them. Most of them suck, in fact, so you'd be bringing your list down using them. Some people just think they're overpowered with no math to back them up and get scared of anything bigger than a Rhino.
This, basically.
I do like my shadowsword since it adds meaningful capability to my army and is cool, but I wouldn't take it at small games. It's high offensive single-target output compared to it's cost means that I can on-the-spot remove-from-existence any non-character unit that my enemy has staked their hopes on, reliably, efficiently, and without question. It's comparative fragility isn't as much of a problem when I also have lots of Leman Russes and Guardsmen that provide a general level of resilience to my force as a whole and can pick up the slack once it dies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/04 03:17:18
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There is no etiquette for using them. Most of them suck, in fact, so you'd be bringing your list down using them. Some people just think they're overpowered with no math to back them up and get scared of anything bigger than a Rhino.
This, basically.
I do like my shadowsword since it adds meaningful capability to my army and is cool, but I wouldn't take it at small games. It's high offensive single-target output compared to it's cost means that I can on-the-spot remove-from-existence any non-character unit that my enemy has staked their hopes on, reliably, efficiently, and without question. It's comparative fragility isn't as much of a problem when I also have lots of Leman Russes and Guardsmen that provide a general level of resilience to my force as a whole and can pick up the slack once it dies.
Yeah, I love my fellblade but it's points cost makes it basically useless in games below 2500. People tend to freak out when I put it on the table, then they realize it eats up half my armies points .
Of course if they brought their own LOW that freak out is a little more warranted......
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There is no etiquette for using them. Most of them suck, in fact, so you'd be bringing your list down using them. Some people just think they're overpowered with no math to back them up and get scared of anything bigger than a Rhino.
This, basically.
I do like my shadowsword since it adds meaningful capability to my army and is cool, but I wouldn't take it at small games. It's high offensive single-target output compared to it's cost means that I can on-the-spot remove-from-existence any non-character unit that my enemy has staked their hopes on, reliably, efficiently, and without question. It's comparative fragility isn't as much of a problem when I also have lots of Leman Russes and Guardsmen that provide a general level of resilience to my force as a whole and can pick up the slack once it dies.
Yeah, I love my fellblade but it's points cost makes it basically useless in games below 2500. People tend to freak out when I put it on the table, then they realize it eats up half my armies points .
Of course if they brought their own LOW that freak out is a little more warranted......
Fellblades are cool.
I don't think they're really LoW killers, though. They average less wounds downrange versus Titanics than the half-it's cost Shadowsword, but can spit that damage across a bunch of targets, so it seems to me that it should generally be seeking to bully lesser tanks than punch up it's weight. Those 6 damage shells are pretty nice for knocking down regular-sized tanks.
My friend has this poor Spartan Assault Tank. He brings it to every game, but it hasn't fired a shot against me since he's never won the turn and I cook it on first go. It doesn't really do well even against other people though. 8 Lascannons is a lot of lascannons, but 20 T8 wounds for 500 points isn't hard to eliminate even without a the giant destroyer laser.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/04 04:10:32
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There is no etiquette for using them. Most of them suck, in fact, so you'd be bringing your list down using them. Some people just think they're overpowered with no math to back them up and get scared of anything bigger than a Rhino.
This, basically.
I do like my shadowsword since it adds meaningful capability to my army and is cool, but I wouldn't take it at small games. It's high offensive single-target output compared to it's cost means that I can on-the-spot remove-from-existence any non-character unit that my enemy has staked their hopes on, reliably, efficiently, and without question. It's comparative fragility isn't as much of a problem when I also have lots of Leman Russes and Guardsmen that provide a general level of resilience to my force as a whole and can pick up the slack once it dies.
Yeah, I love my fellblade but it's points cost makes it basically useless in games below 2500. People tend to freak out when I put it on the table, then they realize it eats up half my armies points .
Of course if they brought their own LOW that freak out is a little more warranted......
Fellblades are cool.
I don't think they're really LoW killers, though. They average less wounds downrange versus Titanics than the half-it's cost Shadowsword, but can spit that damage across a bunch of targets, so it seems to me that it should generally be seeking to bully lesser tanks than punch up it's weight. Those 6 damage shells are pretty nice for knocking down regular-sized tanks.
My friend has this poor Spartan Assault Tank. He brings it to every game, but it hasn't fired a shot against me since he's never won the turn and I cook it on first go. It doesn't really do well even against other people though. 8 Lascannons is a lot of lascannons, but 20 T8 wounds for 500 points isn't hard to eliminate even without a the giant destroyer laser.
Eh, it does fine with a chaos lord for rerolls of 1s to hit plus two dark apostles for +1 to hit and -1 to be hit respectively. But yeah, in the current meta it's been mostly the Executioner of Executioners lately.
Smirrors wrote: Not all Lords of war are equal. I think most people should be able to tell whether a LoW will make the game fun and interesting, or cagey and boring.
If you are bring LoW I think its just as fair as letting someone know and if they want to, they can tailor their army a little towards it.
If you enjoy the power of high damage and toughness, why not share some of that joy with your opponent.
I love it when people think the only LOW is a pre-nerf castellan or a shadowsword exclusively facing vehicles. Even if they don't tailor their lists it can still be a fun game. The dirty secret of most LOW is that they really aren't all that tough or have that much firepower for their points (Paladins, Errants, and Preceptors especially come to mind).
Smirrors wrote: Not all Lords of war are equal. I think most people should be able to tell whether a LoW will make the game fun and interesting, or cagey and boring.
If you are bring LoW I think its just as fair as letting someone know and if they want to, they can tailor their army a little towards it.
If you enjoy the power of high damage and toughness, why not share some of that joy with your opponent.
I love it when people think the only LOW is a pre-nerf castellan or a shadowsword exclusively facing vehicles. Even if they don't tailor their lists it can still be a fun game. The dirty secret of most LOW is that they really aren't all that tough or have that much firepower for their points (Paladins, Errants, and Preceptors especially come to mind).
Also the suggestion that LOWs are special and we should allow people to tailor their list to oppose it is silly. The problem, if it is a problem, is skew lists, not lords of war. a bane blade isn't going to make a mediocre Imperial guard list suddenly unbeatable. A Imperial Knight army might be a problem for a list without a lot of heavy weapons, but that same could be said about an Imperial Guard armor list (without the baneblade ) or a Custodes list etc.
as Eipi noted, most lords of war aren't really all THAT great
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
I’m still stuck in the mindset that special characters, forge world and lords of war should only be fielded with your opponents permission. I know that’s not how it is any more, but it’s my default reaction and I’d like to see it be the norm again.
That being said, in a competitive game, anything goes within the house rules set by the TO. For casual games I tend to discuss the outline of the game briefly with my opponent before the game - how many points, are the armies super competitive/optimised or not, what factions will we bring for the battle. At this time I’d expect my opponent to mention if they are planning on bringing lords of war.
I wouldn’t turn down a game with lords of war or anything, but I’d appreciate the heads up beforehand. For casual games I play my guys WYSIWYG, and I model them based on what I think looks good. Knowing what faction my opponent is, or if they’re bringing LoW would likely have me take another look at my army list and maybe change the load out of a couple of units.
Nobody likes a super one-sided game in my experience.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/08 08:48:41
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones. They were also really popular because they were aggressively over-capable for their cost before the SM2.0 codex, getting a bunch of buffs didn't bring them into line.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/08 09:45:13
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
well I remember when boards were being flooded with castellans. and it did matter that all of them were armed with same relic and all were ravellans. the fact that other castellans existed in theory matters little.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones.
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones. They were also really popular because they were aggressively over-capable for their cost before the SM2.0 codex, getting a bunch of buffs didn't bring them into line.
Everybody had it?
*Checks csm codex. Checks Vigilus Ablaze. Checks Faith and Fury.*
Hellforged Leviathan is in Imperial Armour: Forces of Chaos.
On topic, the old mindset of all this stuff needs your opponents permission is flawed. It came from a time when things were aggressively strong(see CSM 3.5) and only a select few people had LoW(they weren't called LoW back then if I remember correctly). Now, just about everyone has access to a LoW or even owns one. There's no reason to deny a game because of your opponents list choice.
It's also questionable to claim that one knight requires permissions, while six nauts don't
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
chimeara wrote: Hellforged Leviathan is in Imperial Armour: Forces of Chaos.
On topic, the old mindset of all this stuff needs your opponents permission is flawed. It came from a time when things were aggressively strong(see CSM 3.5) and only a select few people had LoW(they weren't called LoW back then if I remember correctly). Now, just about everyone has access to a LoW or even owns one. There's no reason to deny a game because of your opponents list choice.
Strategems are in Imperial Armour: Forces of Chaos? Damn, that page must have fallen out of mine.
Back on topic, people can refuse a game for any reason they want, though in the current meta I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with a LOW. They're hardly the rarity they used to be.
On topic, the old mindset of all this stuff needs your opponents permission is flawed. It came from a time when things were aggressively strong(see CSM 3.5) and only a select few people had LoW(they weren't called LoW back then if I remember correctly). Now, just about everyone has access to a LoW or even owns one. There's no reason to deny a game because of your opponents list choice.
*cries in no LoW (without souping)* I agree, but I also agree with the sensible points guidelines others have said. Avoid non mini-knights @<1000 points, 1 @1001-1500 and whatever you like at higher games. This is more about creating interesting games though...
Lammia wrote: *cries in no LoW (without souping)* I agree, but I also agree with the sensible points guidelines others have said. Avoid non mini-knights @<1000 points, 1 @1001-1500 and whatever you like at higher games. This is more about creating interesting games though...
This doesn't have to do anything with LoWs though. I can fit three gorkanauts into 1000 points, which will be just as little fun to face as a knight or two.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Skew has always been a thing, especially at lower points. It happens in IRL battles too, when it does play for some objective that isn't a win and find fun in that.
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones.
Why were Death Guard Leviathans a problem?
If that were the case everyone would've been doing it. It's only Iron Hands, period.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones.
Why were Death Guard Leviathans a problem?
If that were the case everyone would've been doing it. It's only Iron Hands, period.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Karol wrote: But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.
The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.
On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.
Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones.
Why were Death Guard Leviathans a problem?
If that were the case everyone would've been doing it. It's only Iron Hands, period.
) or a Custodes list etc.
