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Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?



The Chaos leve has 4++ if in melee though
Also are DG even allowed to take one?

Do you know anyone who runs a cc leviathan? Mine does have a single siege drill. But that's because rule of cool beats competitive in my world.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 13:00:07


 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Meh, i do manage to get my Decimator into melee though WARPTIME BE PRAISED.

otoh a decimator only has a 5++ and no more FNP.

feels bad man.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
For FW models, <Legion> can be DG or TS.


ahhh right, forgot that bit.
but i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 13:08:35


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).

The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
Meh, i do manage to get my Decimator into melee though WARPTIME BE PRAISED.

otoh a decimator only has a 5++ and no more FNP.

feels bad man.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
For FW models, <Legion> can be DG or TS.


ahhh right, forgot that bit.
but i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....

Melee contemptors work good. They're one of the few hellforged units that actually get use out of the machine malifica rule. Works good on the fellblade as well, as "steel behemoth" means it can shoot while in cc, and if it gets bracketed it's ws gets better. (Too bad it's 923 fething points though).
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).

The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...


Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).

The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...


Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.


Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).

The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...


Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.


Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.

But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).

The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...


Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.


Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.

But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.


Well sure, but how much cheaper is the fiend than the dread?
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

the_scotsman wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).

The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...


Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.


Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.

But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.


Well sure, but how much cheaper is the fiend than the dread?

Which one? The contemptor is closest in stats and is 10 more, 138 with double butcher cannons vs 128 for the fiend. Leviathan with double butcher cannon array is 303, daredeo 177.
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Not Online!!! wrote:
But i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....

No, you have to pirate them or stop whining :^)
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
But i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....

No, you have to pirate them or stop whining :^)


Beg your pardon, but what do you do if you go to tournaments`?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).

The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...


Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.


Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.

But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.


Well sure, but how much cheaper is the fiend than the dread?

Which one? The contemptor is closest in stats and is 10 more, 138 with double butcher cannons vs 128 for the fiend. Leviathan with double butcher cannon array is 303, daredeo 177.



Ah yes, and here we are at the crux.
The dakkafiend would be vastly more dangerous if he either had better BS or the Discolord wouldn't be the only <warpsmith> with the aura. Which is also why i consider the Discolord failed. Not because he is bad, he isn't , but because his intended design is failed, namely making daemonengines viable. There are more daemonengines that are hybrids or shooting then melee and due to this most don't work. The only daemonengine i actually consider to work is the decimator which is lightly overpriced but atleast decentish enough for a casual game or two. And it has Bs3+

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 14:45:30


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fargo, ND USA

Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?



The Chaos leve has 4++ if in melee though
Also are DG even allowed to take one?

Do you know anyone who runs a cc leviathan? Mine does have a single siege drill. But that's because rule of cool beats competitive in my world.


Yes, actually. I've seen a World Eaters Khorne dual Siege Drill Levi just eat its way through a Blood Angels army.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

The hellwright has similar problems. His aura buffs melee hellforged units, but the majority of the hellforged units are primarily shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?



The Chaos leve has 4++ if in melee though
Also are DG even allowed to take one?

Do you know anyone who runs a cc leviathan? Mine does have a single siege drill. But that's because rule of cool beats competitive in my world.


Yes, actually. I've seen a World Eaters Khorne dual Siege Drill Levi just eat its way through a Blood Angels army.

Well that's one example. They may be more common than I thought, but I haven't seen many.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:06:04


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Sure, but I doubt that me fielding a DG leviathan with miasma protection would be vastly more fun to play against.

The issue isn't really the powerlevel - as you can imagine an UM with Tigurius and two Grav Leviathans isn't exactly competitive.

It's more of the frustration of not being able to do anything about those two dreads, while they just walk about and pick two unit to delete per turn.

You can tar pit them. And if things that are hard to kill bother you then what about Custodes? An army of units that all have at least 3 wounds and a 2+ backed up by at least a 5++ can be pretty frustrating, but you don't call for the army to be eliminated, you just change your strategy when facing them. I personally find games against them interesting, as it forces me to adapt.


You can't tarpit them because nothing lives to reach them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I completely forgot that the chaos variant just has 5++ vs shooting.

I retract my statement above and agree. A leviathan that can actually be hurt by anti-tank weapons is much less of an issue than the loyalist variant.


A 5++ is still obnoxious, as it cheats every weapon that pays for more than -3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Havent seen one of those in a while to be honest. Only imperial.

And yet you constantly call for the banning or nerfing of both. And those imperial ones are just as easy to tar pit.


Yes. I don't like the model design. I don't like FW dreads in general. I don't think marine dreads should magically have BS 2+ because FW says so. Or have magic guns from 10K years ago that are way better than all other guns. And then not pay for the privilege. I think FW should be sent to legends. Seems appropriate.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:18:23


 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Lol martel, all of these dreads are uncompetitve beyond the loyalist IH variant with the wonderfull new and improved GW RULES PROVIDED BY THE ALLMIGHTY PA


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:

Yes, actually. I've seen a World Eaters Khorne dual Siege Drill Levi just eat its way through a Blood Angels army.


Excactly HOW?, considering the speed of a WE Levi is basically silch?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:18:18


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?

We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).


If you're going to have rules discussions you damned well better do your "hobby homework". Otherwise you're just making useless noise.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"Lol martel, all of these dreads are uncompetitve beyond the loyalist IH variant with the wonderfull new and improved GW RULES PROVIDED BY THE ALLMIGHTY PA"

I don't care if they are competitive or not. The BS 2+ is jarring and makes no sense. Plus marines don't need 15 dreadnought variants. FW is a logical group of units to put in legends. Fewer units to try to balance is good.

I'd say all leviathans are pretty competitive. They certainly are for BA and BA have zero shooting buffs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:22:35


 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Martel732 wrote:


You can't tarpit them because nothing lives to reach them.

This seems to mostly be a problem for you, along with dealing with guardsmen btw.

A 5++ is still obnoxious, as it cheats every weapon that pays for more than -3.

So should all 5++ invuls be removed? How many weapons pay for -4? Isn't the entire point of an invul to counteract such weapons? Do you find terminators problematic as well?


Yes. I don't like the model design. I don't like FW dreads in general. I don't think marine dreads should magically have BS 2+ because FW says so. Or have magic guns from 10K years ago that are way better than all other guns. And then not pay for the privilege.

No one is going to remove models from the game merely because you don't like their design. They have superior bs and ws because only the most venerated veterans are interred in them, and older weapons and technology being superior has always been a theme of 40k.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Yeah, I know. But I can dream.

"So should all 5++ invuls be removed?"

At this point, I'd prefer invulns removed from the game, yes.

"This seems to mostly be a problem for you, "

If you say so. I'd like to see how you plan to tarpit them in practice. Doesn't sound like your opponents are screening them properly to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:31:24


 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

Those "hordes" you're always complaining about work just fine for tar pitting. Isn't that your problem with them?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Gadzilla666 wrote:
Those "hordes" you're always complaining about work just fine for tar pitting. Isn't that your problem with them?


Sigh.... no.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:34:37


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

What I don't understand is how no more people is playing triple Lord of Skulls lists, with how cheap they are and the ammount of sinnergy they have access too...

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





3 Gauss Pylon, 3 Heat Cannon Sentry Pylons (2 with a Teleprotation Matrix), a Cryptek with Cloak.
1995 points!

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Wait, waiwaiwaiwait, I swear to heck it was martel arguing that the 2+ 5++ statline of basic terminators was fundamentally broken in 8th because they basically never get to use the 5++?

Why the 5++ is good on the 2+/5++ levi dread?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It wasn't me. I don't talk much about terminators. I just think invulns make weaponry very difficult to cost appropriately in 8th ed. The 5++ is not as useful on terminators because all you really need is a -1 AP to kill them quickly. The same would be true for leviathan dread if -1 AP could wound them consistently. The 5++ on terminators primarily serves to make weapons like melta even more useless than they already are.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 16:49:11


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:


You can't tarpit them because nothing lives to reach them.

This seems to mostly be a problem for you, along with dealing with guardsmen btw.

A 5++ is still obnoxious, as it cheats every weapon that pays for more than -3.

So should all 5++ invuls be removed? How many weapons pay for -4? Isn't the entire point of an invul to counteract such weapons? Do you find terminators problematic as well?


Yes. I don't like the model design. I don't like FW dreads in general. I don't think marine dreads should magically have BS 2+ because FW says so. Or have magic guns from 10K years ago that are way better than all other guns. And then not pay for the privilege.

No one is going to remove models from the game merely because you don't like their design. They have superior bs and ws because only the most venerated veterans are interred in them, and older weapons and technology being superior has always been a theme of 40k.

Boy if he doesn't like BS2+, wait until he hears about gun Ven Dreads!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Don't care for those, either. But whatever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 17:16:05


 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Martel732 wrote:
Don't care for those, either. But whatever.


Do you like anything? Besides grumbling?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I certainly don't like the insane number of dreads that marines get and some having 3+ BS and some having 2+ BS because magic reasons.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Martel732 wrote:
I certainly don't like the insane number of dreads that marines get and some having 3+ BS and some having 2+ BS because magic reasons.


So how do you feel about characters (generic or named) having different BS? Some have 3+, some 2+. Presumably this is to represent some of them being more/less skilled than others.
Is this "magic reasons"?
If not, then why would differently skilled warriors interred in Dreads be "magic reasons"?

As for why there's so many variants of dreads? Simple. GW has found that those sell.
   
 
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