Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
Meh, i do manage to get my Decimator into melee though WARPTIME BE PRAISED.
otoh a decimator only has a 5++ and no more FNP.
feels bad man.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: For FW models, <Legion> can be DG or TS.
ahhh right, forgot that bit.
but i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 13:08:35
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Not Online!!! wrote: Meh, i do manage to get my Decimator into melee though WARPTIME BE PRAISED.
otoh a decimator only has a 5++ and no more FNP.
feels bad man.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: For FW models, <Legion> can be DG or TS.
ahhh right, forgot that bit.
but i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....
Melee contemptors work good. They're one of the few hellforged units that actually get use out of the machine malifica rule. Works good on the fellblade as well, as "steel behemoth" means it can shoot while in cc, and if it gets bracketed it's ws gets better. (Too bad it's 923 fething points though).
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...
Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...
Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.
Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...
Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.
Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.
But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...
Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.
Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.
But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.
Well sure, but how much cheaper is the fiend than the dread?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...
Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.
Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.
But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.
Well sure, but how much cheaper is the fiend than the dread?
Which one? The contemptor is closest in stats and is 10 more, 138 with double butcher cannons vs 128 for the fiend. Leviathan with double butcher cannon array is 303, daredeo 177.
Not Online!!! wrote: But i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....
Not Online!!! wrote: But i may be forgiven (petty please i even pay absolvement) with how many rulesbooks i have to carry around for my renegades and allied CSM....
No, you have to pirate them or stop whining :^)
Beg your pardon, but what do you do if you go to tournaments`?
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
The thing is, I actually played against one recently and we might have played it wrong. Then again, rokkits are only AP-2, so...
Yeah, luckily the chaos stratagems appeared to be designed with a little more...let's say prudence...than some of the loyalist ones. For example, the helbrute shoot twice stratagem can't just be thrown on a leviathan or dereredrerddrerdrerdrererdreo.
Tbf you get a similiar effect with a dakkafiend. Infact hades AC are virtually the Same as butchers without the morale mechanics but 20% cheaper.
But with worse shooting. Bs4 for the daemonengine vs bs2 for the fw dreads.
Well sure, but how much cheaper is the fiend than the dread?
Which one? The contemptor is closest in stats and is 10 more, 138 with double butcher cannons vs 128 for the fiend. Leviathan with double butcher cannon array is 303, daredeo 177.
Ah yes, and here we are at the crux.
The dakkafiend would be vastly more dangerous if he either had better BS or the Discolord wouldn't be the only <warpsmith> with the aura. Which is also why i consider the Discolord failed. Not because he is bad, he isn't , but because his intended design is failed, namely making daemonengines viable. There are more daemonengines that are hybrids or shooting then melee and due to this most don't work. The only daemonengine i actually consider to work is the decimator which is lightly overpriced but atleast decentish enough for a casual game or two. And it has Bs3+
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 14:45:30
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
The Chaos leve has 4++ if in melee though Also are DG even allowed to take one?
Do you know anyone who runs a cc leviathan? Mine does have a single siege drill. But that's because rule of cool beats competitive in my world.
Yes, actually. I've seen a World Eaters Khorne dual Siege Drill Levi just eat its way through a Blood Angels army.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
Jidmah wrote: Sure, but I doubt that me fielding a DG leviathan with miasma protection would be vastly more fun to play against.
The issue isn't really the powerlevel - as you can imagine an UM with Tigurius and two Grav Leviathans isn't exactly competitive.
It's more of the frustration of not being able to do anything about those two dreads, while they just walk about and pick two unit to delete per turn.
You can tar pit them. And if things that are hard to kill bother you then what about Custodes? An army of units that all have at least 3 wounds and a 2+ backed up by at least a 5++ can be pretty frustrating, but you don't call for the army to be eliminated, you just change your strategy when facing them. I personally find games against them interesting, as it forces me to adapt.
You can't tarpit them because nothing lives to reach them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Ah, I completely forgot that the chaos variant just has 5++ vs shooting.
I retract my statement above and agree. A leviathan that can actually be hurt by anti-tank weapons is much less of an issue than the loyalist variant.
A 5++ is still obnoxious, as it cheats every weapon that pays for more than -3.
Martel732 wrote: Havent seen one of those in a while to be honest. Only imperial.
And yet you constantly call for the banning or nerfing of both. And those imperial ones are just as easy to tar pit.
Yes. I don't like the model design. I don't like FW dreads in general. I don't think marine dreads should magically have BS 2+ because FW says so. Or have magic guns from 10K years ago that are way better than all other guns. And then not pay for the privilege. I think FW should be sent to legends. Seems appropriate.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:18:23
Lol martel, all of these dreads are uncompetitve beyond the loyalist IH variant with the wonderfull new and improved GW RULES PROVIDED BY THE ALLMIGHTY PA
Yes, actually. I've seen a World Eaters Khorne dual Siege Drill Levi just eat its way through a Blood Angels army.
Excactly HOW?, considering the speed of a WE Levi is basically silch?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:18:18
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, yes, you were right, I was not. Friends?
We're cool. Guess you should do your "hobby homework " as some posters think everyone should. (Because apparently everyone has as much free time as them).
If you're going to have rules discussions you damned well better do your "hobby homework". Otherwise you're just making useless noise.
"Lol martel, all of these dreads are uncompetitve beyond the loyalist IH variant with the wonderfull new and improved GW RULES PROVIDED BY THE ALLMIGHTY PA"
I don't care if they are competitive or not. The BS 2+ is jarring and makes no sense. Plus marines don't need 15 dreadnought variants. FW is a logical group of units to put in legends. Fewer units to try to balance is good.
I'd say all leviathans are pretty competitive. They certainly are for BA and BA have zero shooting buffs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:22:35
You can't tarpit them because nothing lives to reach them.
This seems to mostly be a problem for you, along with dealing with guardsmen btw.
A 5++ is still obnoxious, as it cheats every weapon that pays for more than -3.
So should all 5++ invuls be removed? How many weapons pay for -4? Isn't the entire point of an invul to counteract such weapons? Do you find terminators problematic as well?
Yes. I don't like the model design. I don't like FW dreads in general. I don't think marine dreads should magically have BS 2+ because FW says so. Or have magic guns from 10K years ago that are way better than all other guns. And then not pay for the privilege.
No one is going to remove models from the game merely because you don't like their design. They have superior bs and ws because only the most venerated veterans are interred in them, and older weapons and technology being superior has always been a theme of 40k.
What I don't understand is how no more people is playing triple Lord of Skulls lists, with how cheap they are and the ammount of sinnergy they have access too...
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Wait, waiwaiwaiwait, I swear to heck it was martel arguing that the 2+ 5++ statline of basic terminators was fundamentally broken in 8th because they basically never get to use the 5++?
Why the 5++ is good on the 2+/5++ levi dread?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
It wasn't me. I don't talk much about terminators. I just think invulns make weaponry very difficult to cost appropriately in 8th ed. The 5++ is not as useful on terminators because all you really need is a -1 AP to kill them quickly. The same would be true for leviathan dread if -1 AP could wound them consistently. The 5++ on terminators primarily serves to make weapons like melta even more useless than they already are.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 16:49:11
You can't tarpit them because nothing lives to reach them.
This seems to mostly be a problem for you, along with dealing with guardsmen btw.
A 5++ is still obnoxious, as it cheats every weapon that pays for more than -3.
So should all 5++ invuls be removed? How many weapons pay for -4? Isn't the entire point of an invul to counteract such weapons? Do you find terminators problematic as well?
Yes. I don't like the model design. I don't like FW dreads in general. I don't think marine dreads should magically have BS 2+ because FW says so. Or have magic guns from 10K years ago that are way better than all other guns. And then not pay for the privilege.
No one is going to remove models from the game merely because you don't like their design. They have superior bs and ws because only the most venerated veterans are interred in them, and older weapons and technology being superior has always been a theme of 40k.
Boy if he doesn't like BS2+, wait until he hears about gun Ven Dreads!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Martel732 wrote: I certainly don't like the insane number of dreads that marines get and some having 3+ BS and some having 2+ BS because magic reasons.
So how do you feel about characters (generic or named) having different BS? Some have 3+, some 2+. Presumably this is to represent some of them being more/less skilled than others.
Is this "magic reasons"?
If not, then why would differently skilled warriors interred in Dreads be "magic reasons"?
As for why there's so many variants of dreads? Simple. GW has found that those sell.
60PL 
12PL 
