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Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







What's the consensus on the inclusion of superheavies? Both in general and in pick-up games at an LGS. At what point levels is it more acceptable to field one (or more)? Are there any that are particularly unfair? I'm especially interested in Knight Titans.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

My impression is that modern 40K is more forgiving on taking lords of war in general games than it was in the past. In the past (esp when superheavies were FW only type models) it was often with opponents permission as a general social expectation in most areas since beating them required specific countermeasures which, if you didn't have, meant the lord of war was going to win the game without much difficulty.


Today I think the playing field is more level. As a result it might well come down to individual club and person level as to if they are default include or not.

Also if you play games with objectives and not just for kills; then taking them at lower points can even leave you with a disadvantage because you've a lot of points tied up in a single model on a single spot of the table.

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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





thing is Lords of war these days aren't really a big deal. some people still hold old views, but in 8th edition really the differance is almost arbitray.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Nervous Accuser






Now that anything can wound anything, I don't think they're much of an issue, especially if you play with multiple objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/02 22:10:23


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 DarkHound wrote:
What's the consensus on the inclusion of superheavies? Both in general and in pick-up games at an LGS. At what point levels is it more acceptable to field one (or more)? Are there any that are particularly unfair? I'm especially interested in Knight Titans.


Id say it depends entirely on what your opponent is bringing and what sort of game you are agreeing to I think. Might be worth asking if LOW are good to go so they can bring their own etc.

The last thing I'd want is to drop on a knight on someone's fluffy list that doesn't have an answer and curb stomp them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/02 22:47:57


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Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

I personally won't bring one to game below 2000 points. They can be a bit much in smaller games.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 DarkHound wrote:
What's the consensus on the inclusion of superheavies? Both in general and in pick-up games at an LGS. At what point levels is it more acceptable to field one (or more)? Are there any that are particularly unfair? I'm especially interested in Knight Titans.
Entire armies of superheavies are now seen as kosher, GW did this when they made Knights an army unto themselves.

That said, in general, in and of themselves they don't tend to present to many balance issues. There's been a couple that have been able to be abused at various points, but have received targeted nerfs that reduced their overpowering capabilities without impacting the ability of people to bring such units. I've run Baneblade companies with 4 SH's in 2k games and have never done better than 50/50 with them.

Now, the larger issues of the game attempting to encompasse such a scale is a different matter, 40k can't decide what scale it wants to play at, creating a myriad of issues and problems related to that, but honestly bringing a grip of superheavies isn't the most busted thing the game has to offer, not by far.

For a tournament, you won't have any issues bringing as many Lords of War as you can fit in. For more casual games, check out your local meta and get a feel for stuff. For pickup games, it's gonna be super variable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 00:12:19


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





I've heard of folks brining LOWs to 500 point games. Seems like a dick move to me, also a boring game.

Like, I could bring a Gauss Pylon to a 500 game, I doubt it would do well, but it'd look impressive!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 00:38:32


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Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

At 1500 points, for a pickup game, I’d like to know ahead of time if I’ll be facing more than 1 Super Heavy. At 1850, if I’m facing more than 2 Super Heavies, I’d like to know ahead of time.

I don’t personally enjoy playing against Lots of superheavies. One or two as a centrepiece is cool, but I don’t like facing an army of them, so I prefer a warning so I can tailor a list that will be fun to play, and play against. I find my opponent and I have more fun that way.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 greatbigtree wrote:
At 1500 points, for a pickup game, I’d like to know ahead of time if I’ll be facing more than 1 Super Heavy. At 1850, if I’m facing more than 2 Super Heavies, I’d like to know ahead of time.

I don’t personally enjoy playing against Lots of superheavies. One or two as a centrepiece is cool, but I don’t like facing an army of them, so I prefer a warning so I can tailor a list that will be fun to play, and play against. I find my opponent and I have more fun that way.

This is how the game should be played at a casual level. Talk to your opponent and work out something, be it lists or custom missions, that work for your armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 01:23:50


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

For a small scale pick-up game, yeah a bit cheesy. For a tournament though, I'd say anything goes.

That being said, in the early days of 8th edition I just got back into the game after a 2-year hiatus. My second game ever of 8th edition was a tournament. I got serious crap (and not the friendly kidding kind) because I brought two Baneblades and a Shadowsword. Which was odd, considering I saw at least 2 knight-lists, a couple magnus/mortarion/lord of skulls combos, and a Tau FW supersuit list that was apparently okay to use.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Using knights outside of tournaments is pretty degenerate, but that's more of a balancing issue than a pick up and play contract.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eipi10 wrote:
Now that anything can wound anything, I don't think they're much of an issue, especially if you play with multiple objectives.


Let me cry as my army of 3 ork boyz squads fails to wound their one knight. fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 04:09:53


 
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Let me cry as my army of 3 ork boyz squads fails to wound their one knight. fun.

Do the nobz in boyz units not carry powerklaws these days?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 04:21:34


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Let me cry as my army of 3 ork boyz squads fails to wound their one knight. fun.


Do the nobz in boyz units not carry powerklaws these days?


Hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's with 3 attacks.
1.5 hits, 1 wound, 4++ save means 0.5 wounds go through, average of 2 damage per hit, meaning 1 damage in assault per nob
Tell me more about how good powerklaws are lmao
   
Made in dk
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Don't bring Titanic units in 1000 pts or below, don't bring more than one unless you're playing 1750+ pts. Ask your opponent before or after the game if they can have fun against Knights with their current list, maybe they do, maybe they don't. Knight-spam can be a frustrating list, just like any other skew list can be, 200 Gretchin and Smite spam requires some inquiring as well. If your opponent is bringing a competitive list you don't need to hold back IMO. Some lists will destroy your Knights, they're good but they're not top of the meta anymore.

Different Knights have different strengths, in the Knight Codex they're all about equally pts-effective some are more generalist some are more specialized. Many of the FW ones were weak before the FW Knight update, I'm not sure how they do now. If you don't take WL traits and Relics on Knights they're vastly less effective if you just want something stompy but you don't want to necessarily stomp your opponent maybe you can come to a middle ground where your opponent lets you use one or more Knights as long as you agree not to give them a WL traits or Relics.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's with 3 attacks.
1.5 hits, 1 wound, 4++ save means 0.5 wounds go through, average of 2 damage per hit, meaning 1 damage in assault per nob
Tell me more about how good powerklaws are lmao

Off the charge, and assuming 20 total orks make it into CC you get:

Nob w/ Klaw: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, 0.5 unsaved wounds, 1 average damage
Boyz: 57 attacks, 38 hits, 6.33 wounds, 3.17 unsaved wounds, 3 average damage

That's also only ~220 points (assuming a 30 model boyz unit) versus a model that's 400+ points so...

Also, why are you running nothing but boyz? Get some MANZ or Tankbustas in your list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/03 04:51:45


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's with 3 attacks.
1.5 hits, 1 wound, 4++ save means 0.5 wounds go through, average of 2 damage per hit, meaning 1 damage in assault per nob
Tell me more about how good powerklaws are lmao

Off the charge, and assuming 20 total orks make it into CC you get:

Nob w/ Klaw: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound, 0.5 unsaved wounds, 1 average damage
Boyz: 57 attacks, 38 hits, 6.33 wounds, 3.17 unsaved wounds, 3 average damage

That's also only ~220 points (assuming a 30 model boyz unit) versus a model that's 400+ points so...


220 points for 4 damage bois yeee haw goteeeem
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 Eonfuzz wrote:
220 points for 4 damage bois yeee haw goteeeem

If you only run boyz you're not going to have much anti-tank. More at 11.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 04:53:46


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
220 points for 4 damage bois yeee haw goteeeem

If you only run boyz you're not going to have much anti-tank. More at 11.


Hold up, aren't we talking about pick up and play games? Are you saying that Ork players can't run Orks?
I was using it as an example of why Knights are degenerate in casual games lmao.

   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hold up, aren't we talking about pick up and play games? Are you saying that Ork players can't run Orks?
I was using it as an example of why Knights are degenerate in casual games lmao.

You'd be equally screwed against a list that runs Leman Russ's, Land Raiders, a Stompa or two, more than 1 Flyer... Using a bad list to try to prove a point is terrible.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hold up, aren't we talking about pick up and play games? Are you saying that Ork players can't run Orks?
I was using it as an example of why Knights are degenerate in casual games lmao.

You'd be equally screwed against a list that runs Leman Russ's, Land Raiders, a Stompa or two, more than 1 Flyer... Using a bad list to try to prove a point is terrible.


Running lists that are *just* leman russes or *just* stompas is also degenerate in casual games.
Change my mind.
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Knights don’t have an invulnerable in close combat without a relic.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
Knights don’t have an invulnerable in close combat without a relic.


And if you're gamer enough to run a Knight in a casual sub 1000 list you're gamer enough to throw that invul relic on your knight.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Running lists that are *just* leman russes or *just* stompas is also degenerate in casual games.
Change my mind.

Build a proppa list and you'll be able ta krump anyfing what annoys da boss!

Also, why are you telling people not to play with the models they paid for are you TFG?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 05:14:47


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

 Eonfuzz wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Knights don’t have an invulnerable in close combat without a relic.


And if you're gamer enough to run a Knight in a casual sub 1000 list you're gamer enough to throw that invul relic on your knight.
...

Do you even know Knights at all?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Running lists that are *just* leman russes or *just* stompas is also degenerate in casual games.
Change my mind.

Build a proppa list and you'll be able ta krump anyfing what annoys da boss!


Hey now, I know what *I'm* doing, I keep saying *casual* games, not matched play, not narrative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Knights don’t have an invulnerable in close combat without a relic.


And if you're gamer enough to run a Knight in a casual sub 1000 list you're gamer enough to throw that invul relic on your knight.
...

Do you even know Knights at all?


Why would the gamer not choose an invul relic to stop 30% of the damage output of the only things that can hurt it.
And honestly, I don't really know Knights. Dont interest me in the slightest

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 05:14:27


 
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Hey now, I know what *I'm* doing, I keep saying *casual* games, not matched play, not narrative.

In your example, by bringing such a weak list you're kind of being TFG by complaining when people sit down across from you with the models they purchased. Even in a casual setting, you should still build a list that covers the basics.

Why would the gamer not choose an invul relic to stop 30% of the damage output of the only things that can hurt it.

Why would the ork gamer not bring a unit of MANZ or tank bustas to have actually antitank?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 05:18:01


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Okay-casual does not mean you intentionally build bad lists. And if you do, because you want to try something silly, like, say, a Stompa Mob, you talk to your opponent about it and ask them to tone their list down or use a fun scenario that lets you have a good fight.

I see no reason why, in a casual game, you shouldn't bring any anti-tank.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay-casual does not mean you intentionally build bad lists. And if you do, because you want to try something silly, like, say, a Stompa Mob, you talk to your opponent about it and ask them to tone their list down or use a fun scenario that lets you have a good fight.

I see no reason why, in a casual game, you shouldn't bring any anti-tank.


Right, which is why I'm saying it's degenerate in casual games.
In an ideal world you have a chat with the opponent, talk about goals and what you enjoy and play a game.

But with casual play you can't make any assumptions about lists. The example I was making above is the ideal "Ork Horde" of a massive green tide. Versus that one guy that brings in knights.
We, on the forums for the game, know that just green tide is bad against mechanized lists, but that casual ork player versus the knight gamer doesn't know that.

Thus, the onus is on the knight player to not be a degenerate, or talk to the ork player beforehand.

Edit: It's a bit like the fluffbunny who reads how great space marines are and builds a tactical only list and plays against a knight spammer. Who's in the wrong?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/03 05:22:32


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Eonfuzz wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay-casual does not mean you intentionally build bad lists. And if you do, because you want to try something silly, like, say, a Stompa Mob, you talk to your opponent about it and ask them to tone their list down or use a fun scenario that lets you have a good fight.

I see no reason why, in a casual game, you shouldn't bring any anti-tank.


Right, which is why I'm saying it's degenerate in casual games.
In an ideal world you have a chat with the opponent, talk about goals and what you enjoy and play a game.

But with casual play you can't make any assumptions about lists. The example I was making above is the ideal "Ork Horde" of a massive green tide. Versus that one guy that brings in knights.
We, on the forums for the game, know that just green tide is bad against mechanized lists, but that casual ork player versus the knight gamer doesn't know that.

Thus, the onus is on the knight player to not be a degenerate, or talk to the ork player beforehand.

Edit: It's a bit like the fluffbunny who reads how great space marines are and builds a tactical only list and plays against a knight spammer. Who's in the wrong?
I'm sorry, but if you fail to beat a 4-Knight list with an Ork Horde, you're a terrible general or playing a pure kill points mission. You should be winning on objectives SO HARD, even without doing a lick of damage.

Not to mention, Orks have tools to counter Knights! Tankbustas. Meganobz, probably Evil Sunz and Tellyported in. Regular Nobz, same deal. SAG and SSAG.

If a player REPEATEDLY brings Knights when you lack the tools to counter them (say, you're new to the hobby and don't have a good collection yet) then yeah, they're a jerk and a dingus. But if you just say "Hey, want to play a 2k game?" and they say yes, you should generally be bringing a TAC list that can handle most things.

While one can argue that Knights are too good, that's not an inherent LoW problem. It'd be the same if I brought a horde of Intercessors-they're too powerful right now, so you'd likely be losing, but that's a BALANCE ISSUE, not a LoW issue.

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