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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





One of the points I'm getting at is that marine resilience means very little in the open battlefield with so many opposing anti tank weaponry able to be brought to bear. Low target number high opposing fire, makes for very effective target saturation.

Their resilience means a great deal in close quarters bunker fights where stray bullets and stabs will take down less resilient foes, but the probability is in their favour because they are more able to leverage their superiority in one on one (or one on three) combats.

But the tabletop sets marines up in exactly the style of warfare that their strengths don't really shine in.

And so you get this never ending cycle of tension between how marines are supposed to appear in the fluff (where they are positioned in ways that magnify their superiority) and how the tabletop plays out.

They could fundamentally change the game and allow for assymetric warfare where the objectives are different (marines are at an advantage but the enemy starts the game with victory points already as a balance), this would allow marine resilience to shine.

Instead they just keep trying to find ways to make them tougher in their rules, rather than better reflecting how they work.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 jeff white wrote:
All oif this discussion recalls the earlier point, that the game lost something when the "lore" forgot that the empire was failing, that high-tech like plasma was old and unreliable at best, deadly at worst, that tanks and heavy machinery ran on literal prayers for lack of parts and skilled craftsmen able to repair them, that orks enjoyed guns for the smoke and noise as much as actually hitting anything, that yes, equipment matters and guardsmen have less of the good stuff and none of the best stuff, ever - the marine come and get that 5H1#, that Tau individually have no personal initiative and that choas and traitor marines have too much, and so on and so on with the critical flaws in every thing and every one in this universe... until baby Blue Bells comes back from the dead with his truescale restartes and the heretic Cawl with his floating tanks ... all heresy, all obvious chaos trickery, because the universe doesn't run that way... proof: the game is worse for it. All of it. The realism, the gritty grimdark realism, made the game work. The high fantasy shiny heroes in sphaezzz just make the game into a CCG with dice cannons and the abstractions employed to make it work all take away from intuitions that were reinforced in the original resource environment. Yeah, plasma is VERY RARE and deadly, soooo... And Marines have better intel than you do soooo... and better gear. So they tend not to drop down in front of 100 pasma guns. They might drop a few thousand guardsmen instead, or a nice big orbital bombardment to melt all those plasma guns first. Plus smoke, and radiation, and all that good stuff that made marines so badazz... this is all gone. For cards. Gimicks. And restartes on floating tanks. Who shoot bullets that don't need line of sight. For the lulz.


Plasma has never been rare in the game. Ever.

"So they tend not to drop down in front of 100 pasma guns. "

They have been since 5th ed. And before that, really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 01:26:42


 
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Martel732 wrote:

Plasma has never been rare in the game. Ever.

"So they tend not to drop down in front of 100 pasma guns. "

They have been since 5th ed. And before that, really.


Really?

I quote from a non-official source, being a bit lazy to drag out the Rogue Trader and 2ed books...
"Plasma technology is relatively rare in the Imperium as it is incredibly hard to produce and maintain properly in large quantities, and is thus scarce in both Imperial and Chaos forces. However, its power means that these forces use it every chance they get."
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Plasma

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 01:32:21


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Yes, really. IG mech vet spam could field a crazy number of special weapons in 5th.

Plasma became very popular in 3rd really b/c AP 2. Plasma had more nuance in 2nd.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 01:29:14


 
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, really. IG mech vet spam could field a crazy number of special weapons in 5th.

Plasma became very popular in 3rd really b/c AP 2. Plasma had more nuance in 2nd.


Bad game design not reflecting background... struck on the theme of this thread the last couple of pages of posts, now have we?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Yes, really. IG mech vet spam could field a crazy number of special weapons in 5th.

Plasma became very popular in 3rd really b/c AP 2. Plasma had more nuance in 2nd.


And again, from the same page a bit further down:
"According to the fluff, Imperial Plasma weapons are extremely rare and most are at least a few centuries old. This is due to the difficulty in mass-producing Plasma weapons on any Forge World other than Ryza,,,"
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Plasma


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jeff white wrote:
All oif this discussion recalls the earlier point, that the game lost something when the "lore" forgot that the empire was failing, that high-tech like plasma was old and unreliable at best, deadly at worst, that tanks and heavy machinery ran on literal prayers for lack of parts and skilled craftsmen able to repair them, that orks enjoyed guns for the smoke and noise as much as actually hitting anything, that yes, equipment matters and guardsmen have less of the good stuff and none of the best stuff, ever.

Why? The marines come and get that 5H1#

Also forgotten is that Tau individually have no personal initiative and that chaos and traitor marines have too much, and so on and so on with the critical flaws in every thing and every one in this universe... until baby Blue Bells comes back from the dead with his truescale restartes and the heretic Cawl with his floating tanks ... all heresy, all obvious chaos trickery, because the universe doesn't run that way...

Proof: the game is worse for it. All of it.

The realism, the gritty grimdark realism, made the game work. The high fantasy shiny heroes in sphaezzz just make the game into a CCG with dice cannons and the abstractions employed to make this work all take away from intuitions that were reinforced in the original resource environment.

In lore and in game, plasma is supposed to be VERY RARE and deadly
... And Marines have better intel than you do
... and better gear.
So they tend not to drop down in front of 100 pasma guns.

They might drop a few thousand guardsmen instead, or a nice big orbital bombardment to melt all those plasma guns first.
Plus smoke, and radiation, and all that good stuff that made marines so badazz... this is all gone.

For what?

For cards. Gimmicks. And restartes on floating tanks. Who shoot bullets that don't need line of sight. For the lulz.


Above I quote my own post now clarified to avoid misunderstandings.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 01:40:49


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




There is nothing in the game at all reflecting that. Never has been. They might as well have never written it. It's just like the fluff in the 7th ed BA codex when BA couldn't buy a win.

I'd be a lot more interested in the background if the game had anything at all to do with it. But...

Every single BA strat thread talks about how DC are glass cannons. No marine unit should ever be a glass cannon. And that's just for starters..

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 01:46:29


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Kroem wrote:
Can you give an example of the type of abstractions in the current rules that you take umbrage at?

Perhaps, for example:

- A model can fire four boltguns and a missile launcher similtaneously, but not a single boltgun and a pistol.
- If a model flees from battle it just vanishes on the spot...
- Vehicles are equally resilient when taking hits from all sides - even those vehicles which are clearly more vulnerable from a particular direction (eg. the Basilisk)
- Models can gain wargear mid-battle by having a command point spent on them. That wargear then evaporates at the end of the phase/turn.
- What even are command points? Why does a certain number of dudes turning up to the fight generate more 'command'? How can Marines, for example, be commanded to have transhuman physiology? And where does it go when they're not being commanded to have it? How come you can spend command points even when you have no commanders?
- How come a Knight can't punch enemies on the first floor of a ruin, but it can punch enemies which stand no taller than its ankles? How is the latter apparently easier to reach than the former?

Don't forget IGOUGO being utterly unrealistic itself.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Martel732 wrote:
There is nothing in the game at all reflecting that. Never has been. They might as well have never written it. It's just like the fluff in the 7th ed BA codex when BA couldn't buy a win.

I'd be a lot more interested in the background if the game had anything at all to do with it. But...

Every single BA strat thread talks about how DC are glass cannons. No marine unit should ever be a glass cannon. And that's just for starters..


Well, 'gets hot' was one way that this was part of the game, and the rest was - early on at least - reinforced with limits how many weapons of a certain type in a unit).

   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Great thread!

I agree with the premise that the game has been relying more and more on gaming gimmicks and simplification and less on realism.

Many good examples include:

1) templates: whenever I see a massive blob for auras I shed a tear.

2) initiative: doubling down on I go you go is not ideal and immersion breaking.

3) fall back and shoot, touching in melee: all gaming gimmicks in my book.

4) tank rear shots: and other vehicle mechanics (do I recall incorrectly or they had shocked crew at some point).

And so on.

I think this is because they are moving away from the initial enthusiasts. At first, people playing table top wanted simulation. That’s what a certain philosophy pf war game comes from, such as chainmail and advanced dnd rules. Now we have people playing settlers of catan.

I would prefer more simulation and less of an abstraction like chess. But every day we are getting further from realism and closer to playing chess with science fiction sculpts.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Yeah, crew shaken and crew stunned used to be a thing. Though I always found it odd that it affected dreadnoughts. Made sense for tanks though. Spalling is a thing.
   
Made in nz
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot



New Zealand

One of the most unrealistic things; that both sides are, generally, even in power. If you are the weaker force you screwed up; if the enemy is the weaker force they screwed up; if both sides are on equal footing then both sides screwed up.

Against Space Marines you cannot be everywhere. Disperse to cover a wider area and your command and control is picked off. If you mass; well enjoy the orbital bombardment. Heads I win tales you lose.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Tygre wrote:
One of the most unrealistic things; that both sides are, generally, even in power. If you are the weaker force you screwed up; if the enemy is the weaker force they screwed up; if both sides are on equal footing then both sides screwed up.

Against Space Marines you cannot be everywhere. Disperse to cover a wider area and your command and control is picked off. If you mass; well enjoy the orbital bombardment. Heads I win tales you lose.


That's just buying the SM propaganda. If they were so good, why was the human empire in decadence and close to defeat for so many years?

Truth is, it is hard to create rules for some of their "lore" because it reads like WWII proganda. Instead of trying to mimic that, assume that is simply an exaggeration and focus on the "real" events behind it to model it for the table top.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Martel732 wrote:
Every single BA strat thread talks about how DC are glass cannons. No marine unit should ever be a glass cannon. And that's just for starters..


'Glass cannon' means strong but vulnerable. Since a T4/3+ profile is better than the basic infantry of most factions, we're really talking about tough but vulnerable for their cost.

So, for their cost, what should they be:
-Strong but vulnerable?
-Strong but slow?
-Just equally average at all things?
-Or stronger than average for their cost but not vulnerable and not slow, therefore overpowered?

There's a trade-off here. DC take the base Marine statline and amp up the offensive power for a cost, leaving you with less durability for the total price. That's how you get a glass cannon. Going beyond BA and DC, 'no marine unit should ever be a glass cannon' is incredibly limiting. If nothing can be vulnerable for its cost, then that eliminates an axis of counterbalance that could be used for high-firepower or high-mobility units.

The problem is players approaching the game from a fluff mindset, where Marines are depicted as superior to everybody else and curb-stomp battles with ease, but in tabletop game design their capabilities have to be just average for the price in order to be fair (and, I would argue, they're already well above-average). If you want to be above the average for the cost in some areas, you become below-average for the cost in other areas.

A single Death Company Marine is not a 'glass cannon' on a one-for-one basis compared to Guard, Eldar, Ork, Tyranid, Tau, or Necron infantry. It's still tougher than all of them. A DC Marine only becomes a glass cannon when you take the necessary balancing mechanism of points into account. And that's one of the problems with trying to line up fluff and gameplay; because the fluff is written to make Marines seem like all-conquering badasses and the gameplay is written to give everyone a fair shot.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"then that eliminates an axis of counterbalance that could be used for high-firepower or high-mobility units."

This axis should be reserved for armies like GSC and Eldar. That's my main point.

Just for comparison, DC were much tougher for their cost back in 3rd and 4th. I understand the balancing factor of points, but thematically it's just painful to watch.

"The problem is players approaching the game from a fluff mindset, where Marines are depicted as superior to everybody else and curb-stomp battles with ease, but in tabletop game design their capabilities have to be just average for the price in order to be fair (and, I would argue, they're already well above-average). If you want to be above the average for the cost in some areas, you become below-average for the cost in other areas."

And this is why the fluff basically ends up meaning nothing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/20 15:05:31


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 jeff white wrote:
All oif this discussion recalls the earlier point, that the game lost something when the "lore" forgot that the empire was failing, that high-tech like plasma was old and unreliable at best, deadly at worst, that tanks and heavy machinery ran on literal prayers for lack of parts and skilled craftsmen able to repair them, that orks enjoyed guns for the smoke and noise as much as actually hitting anything, that yes, equipment matters and guardsmen have less of the good stuff and none of the best stuff, ever.

Why? The marines come and get that 5H1#

Also forgotten is that Tau individually have no personal initiative and that chaos and traitor marines have too much, and so on and so on with the critical flaws in every thing and every one in this universe... until baby Blue Bells comes back from the dead with his truescale restartes and the heretic Cawl with his floating tanks ... all heresy, all obvious chaos trickery, because the universe doesn't run that way...

Proof: the game is worse for it. All of it.

The realism, the gritty grimdark realism, made the game work. The high fantasy shiny heroes in sphaezzz just make the game into a CCG with dice cannons and the abstractions employed to make this work all take away from intuitions that were reinforced in the original resource environment.

In lore and in game, plasma is supposed to be VERY RARE and deadly
... And Marines have better intel than you do
... and better gear.
So they tend not to drop down in front of 100 pasma guns.

They might drop a few thousand guardsmen instead, or a nice big orbital bombardment to melt all those plasma guns first.
Plus smoke, and radiation, and all that good stuff that made marines so badazz... this is all gone.

For what?

For cards. Gimmicks. And restartes on floating tanks. Who shoot bullets that don't need line of sight. For the lulz.


Just want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.

The other thing I'd add is that I think the lore has started leaning far too hard on characters. Or, more accurately, the same tiny pool of special characters. It makes the universe feel small and also subverts the whole grimdark theme when you basically have the sci-fi equivalent of knights in shining armour running round, solving every problem.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

Martel732 wrote:
Just for comparison, DC were much tougher for their cost back in 3rd and 4th. I understand the balancing factor of points, but thematically it's just painful to watch.

That probably has more to do with the scale of the game then anything. We now have demon primarchs and other super heavies in normal 40k. Those things didn't exist when I first started collecting in 4th. Marines feel elite in kilteam for instance (unless you are playing against custodes). Death company would be scary in killteam, much like Khorne Berzerkers are.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Marines do not feel elite at all compared to bullgryns, grotesques, and Wulfen, all of whom have the coveted invuln save vs all the super heavies and demon primarchs.
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

I think marines in lore and marines in the game are two completly separated concepts. How the game is played out and how battles are illustrated in the artwork with massed line battles it would make more sense if marines and guardsmen existed in a 20 to 1 ratio or something like that. Marines are elite and functions as a rapid insertion force while guardsmen fight in trenches or in costly human wave offensives. That would make some sense within the game at least.

The lore is completely disconnected from the game and even to itself. There are just too few of these elite warriors to matter in a galaxy of warfare. They would barely impact a war against a faction like the orks or tyranids. 1000x1000 marines yea right...

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Gitdakka wrote:
I think marines in lore and marines in the game are two completly separated concepts. How the game is played out and how battles are illustrated in the artwork with massed line battles it would make more sense if marines and guardsmen existed in a 20 to 1 ratio or something like that. Marines are elite and functions as a rapid insertion force while guardsmen fight in trenches or in costly human wave offensives. That would make some sense within the game at least.

The lore is completely disconnected from the game and even to itself. There are just too few of these elite warriors to matter in a galaxy of warfare. They would barely impact a war against a faction like the orks or tyranids. 1000x1000 marines yea right...


But crushing C and C... /snark
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

Martel732 wrote:
Marines do not feel elite at all compared to bullgryns, grotesques, and Wulfen, all of whom have the coveted invuln save vs all the super heavies and demon primarchs.

Bullgryns and grotesques are monstrous infantry and the marine equivlants wouldn't death company but terminators, gravis or centurions. Also wulfen are technically marines.

In addition the two demon primarchs that do exist dish out lots of mortal wounds which go straight through invul saves.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Blood Hawk wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Marines do not feel elite at all compared to bullgryns, grotesques, and Wulfen, all of whom have the coveted invuln save vs all the super heavies and demon primarchs.

Bullgryns and grotesques are monstrous infantry and the marine equivlants wouldn't death company but terminators, gravis or centurions. Also wulfen are technically marines.

In addition the two demon primarchs that do exist dish out lots of mortal wounds which go straight through invul saves.


Bullgryns and grotesques are still much tougher than the marine equivalents you named. Wulfen are marines, but not marines. I wouldn't count on those mortals to get through a grotesque pack myself. You can explain it away however you want, but the gulf between these units is too large.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 16:19:43


 
   
Made in us
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Grey40k wrote:
Tygre wrote:
One of the most unrealistic things; that both sides are, generally, even in power. If you are the weaker force you screwed up; if the enemy is the weaker force they screwed up; if both sides are on equal footing then both sides screwed up.

Against Space Marines you cannot be everywhere. Disperse to cover a wider area and your command and control is picked off. If you mass; well enjoy the orbital bombardment. Heads I win tales you lose.


That's just buying the SM propaganda. If they were so good, why was the human empire in decadence and close to defeat for so many years?


You mean, "How has humanity survived the continued onslaught of xenos and chaos scum?" Space Marines!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




In spite of marines, perhaps.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Insectum7 wrote:
Grey40k wrote:
Tygre wrote:
One of the most unrealistic things; that both sides are, generally, even in power. If you are the weaker force you screwed up; if the enemy is the weaker force they screwed up; if both sides are on equal footing then both sides screwed up.

Against Space Marines you cannot be everywhere. Disperse to cover a wider area and your command and control is picked off. If you mass; well enjoy the orbital bombardment. Heads I win tales you lose.


That's just buying the SM propaganda. If they were so good, why was the human empire in decadence and close to defeat for so many years?


You mean, "How has humanity survived the continued onslaught of xenos and chaos scum?" Space Marines!


Why aren't armies in the real world all special forces?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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In their minds they probably are lol.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:


You mean, "How has humanity survived the continued onslaught of xenos and chaos scum?" Space Marines!


Jokes aside, I do think it is impossible to balance the odds depicted in the books and rest of the fluff. Better to treat that as war propaganda and use a tonned down version for the game.

But returning to the topic in the OP:

I think the current state of rules is the result of a very conscious effort to move away from simulation elements towards a chess-like more streamlined gameplay.

I guess that they think that videogames will always beat them at realism, so why not embrace the chess path.

I very much prefer simulation to chess but I guess I am not the dominant type of player.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Gitdakka wrote:The lore is completely disconnected from the game and even to itself. There are just too few of these elite warriors to matter in a galaxy of warfare. They would barely impact a war against a faction like the orks or tyranids. 1000x1000 marines yea right...

Martel732 wrote:But crushing C and C... /snark


There are only a few hundred US Navy SEALs. The Chinese military has over 2 million active personnel.

I guess SEALs don't matter for anything and might as well not exist. They've never been employed for special missions where their unique skills and training are valuable. They've never been instrumental in ending conflicts, or contributed in any meaningful way to conventional warfare.

Everybody knows that the only thing that ever matters in warfare is how many bodies you bring. If SEALs can't go toe-to-toe with the entire military of China then that means they're worthless.

(Sarcasm off: The problem with Marines isn't their numbers. The problem is authors trying to use them as grunt infantry instead of special forces. Surgical strike to take out a Norn Queen, yes. Fighting the entire Tyranid horde on the surface of a planet, no. Taking out the leadership and key logistical infrastructure of a rebellious planet, yes. Boltering the entire renegade military on an open plain, no. Marines having trouble on the tabletop when they're going up against superheavy tanks and massed anti-tank weapons is a natural extension of this problem.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 17:01:10


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




They matter, but not as much as bolter porn makes marines matter.

Sounds like marines should be a kill team force, not a 40K army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/20 17:03:40


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Martel732 wrote:
They matter, but not as much as bolter porn makes marines matter.

Sounds like marines should be a kill team force, not a 40K army.


Epic made Marines work. The problem isn't scale, it's a lack of modeling of the elements that make Marines work in the fluff. There's no ambush scenario in 40K when you just line up on opposite sides of the board. There's no modeling of Marines' lightning-fast operational tempo, nor their coordination. There are rarely 'sudden death' style objectives where a force of Marines can get in, do what they need to do, and get out without engaging the bulk of the enemy forces.

Marines in Epic feel like proper special forces. They're fast, reliable, and can concentrate a ton of power into a small area (this is a hugely important factor- ranges in Epic are a lot shorter, so there's a lot less 'I shoot my entire army at this unit'). What Marines in Epic don't have is unlimited staying power if the enemy can concentrate artillery and superheavies (let alone Titans) against them.

The board is the same size as 40K, but the weapon ranges are far shorter, and units are able to move a lot more relative to their range. An army that can reliably activate (like Marines) can run circles around less-reliable armies, activating to get in, smash a key unit or objective, and get out before the response arrives. Maneuver actually matters. Morale matters too- so if Marines get in and inflict a decent amount of attrition on their targets, it dramatically reduces the amount of return fire they have to contend with.

The utter lack of these mechanics in 40K turns Marines into just bigger Guardsmen. And they die against superheavies and artillery like Guardsmen all the same.

   
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So if you can think of that, why can't GW?
   
 
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