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Don't titans do those automatic no save, no inv hits? maybe a primarch has one of those. I could imagine magnus or horus having some zappy thing that does 8th instant wounds plus.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Don't titans do those automatic no save, no inv hits? maybe a primarch has one of those. I could imagine magnus or horus having some zappy thing that does 8th instant wounds plus.
Strength D can do multiple wounds, but no, they don’t have them.
Magnus can have a strength D shooting attack but you can’t shoot in combat.
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Certain Primarchs have a lot of special rules, such as "Can never be wounded on a better then 4+", or "During a challenge, this model's Invulnerable save increases to a 3+", or "If this model charges, it always strikes first regardless of Initiative values". Some of the rules are "During the subsequent round of combat, decrease the WS of the opponent's WS by -1", etc. etc. Magnus was bonkers broken when he first came out because of the psykic powers he could select. That list has been really nerfed, and he is now merely "good" (still top 5). Russ, if he could live to round two or more of combat, would win because of his stat decrements to his opponents (it's been nerfed a bit, but still very powerful). Sanguinius is still top dog- his high initiative, WS 9, and special rules when he charges and the first round of close combat means he can possibly one round just about any other Primarch. And he will always get the charge due to his rules. Not to mention he is the best hit and run character in the game.
So yeah, when we see the Lion's stat line, it's pretty average for the Primarchs except his WS 8 and Initiative 7 (only 2-3 Primarchs have an Initiative of 7, most are 6). His 2+/4++ once per phase rerollable is OP, combined with a Plasma gun that is appearently a Salvo weapon that causes blindness. The Wolf Blade is stupid good because of one rule: Fleshbane. This means The Lion always wounds on a 2+. So at worst, he will need a 4+ to hit, and always wounds on a 2+ with an AP 2 weapon. That just about automatically makes him one of the best melee Primarchs in 30K. If they took away Fleshbane or made the Wolf Blade unwieldly, then he would be in a fair, balanced spot. As previewed by Forge World, he is easily top 3 now. Maybe #2 for close combat master after Sanguinius. And that's a HUGE disconnect from the lore and everything we know about Lion el' Johnson.
Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Certain Primarchs have a lot of special rules, such as "Can never be wounded on a better then 4+", or "During a challenge, this model's Invulnerable save increases to a 3+", or "If this model charges, it always strikes first regardless of Initiative values". Some of the rules are "During the subsequent round of combat, decrease the WS of the opponent's WS by -1", etc. etc. Magnus was bonkers broken when he first came out because of the psykic powers he could select. That list has been really nerfed, and he is now merely "good" (still top 5). Russ, if he could live to round two or more of combat, would win because of his stat decrements to his opponents (it's been nerfed a bit, but still very powerful). Sanguinius is still top dog- his high initiative, WS 9, and special rules when he charges and the first round of close combat means he can possibly one round just about any other Primarch. And he will always get the charge due to his rules. Not to mention he is the best hit and run character in the game.
So yeah, when we see the Lion's stat line, it's pretty average for the Primarchs except his WS 8 and Initiative 7 (only 2-3 Primarchs have an Initiative of 7, most are 6). His 2+/4++ once per phase rerollable is OP, combined with a Plasma gun that is appearently a Salvo weapon that causes blindness. The Wolf Blade is stupid good because of one rule: Fleshbane. This means The Lion always wounds on a 2+. So at worst, he will need a 4+ to hit, and always wounds on a 2+ with an AP 2 weapon. That just about automatically makes him one of the best melee Primarchs in 30K. If they took away Fleshbane or made the Wolf Blade unwieldly, then he would be in a fair, balanced spot. As previewed by Forge World, he is easily top 3 now. Maybe #2 for close combat master after Sanguinius. And that's a HUGE disconnect from the lore and everything we know about Lion el' Johnson.
I'm sure Horus would beat him 1v1, I haven't done the mathhammer but so far from experience absolutely nothing I've tested against him can beat him now Scoria's been nerfed. Disabling strike is just too powerful
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/07 16:39:11
Someone did the math-hammer for this yesterday, in short with tthe Wold Blade + his save he wins 3/4's of the duels handily and only really loses to Horus and a few others
Taken from Facebook
Spoiler:
So, this was done:
Lion Math Hammer (wolfblade): (Nobody using IWND)
VS Corax (using d3 extra attacks):
Round 1:
Both Strike same time. Corvus hits 4 times, wounds 3. Lion saves 2 due to re roll.
I'm sure Horus would beat him 1v1, I haven't done the mathhammer but so far from experience absolutely nothing I've tested against him can beat him now Scoria's been nerfed. Disabling strike is just too powerful
As a Sons of Horus player, I wish I could agree! Disabling Strike is awesome, but in this case, the only thing it would do is allow Horus to hit The Lion on a 3+ after two rounds of close combat. The WORST to hit roll the Lion ever needs is a 4+ due to The Lion's special rule "Absolute Focus". They both wound on a 2+, so relative strengths is negated. As the Lions takes wounds, he gets more attacks. The advantage here might be to Horus with his 3++ vs. the Lions 4++... but it's rerollable, so effectively gives him a 2++. I really think it would be a close match, and could go either way depending on the dice. My point here, is that there is NOTHING in the fluff AT ALL that says The Lion should be able to challenge Horus one on one and win. Give him a good fight, maybe. But win against the Warmaster? This is when the passing of Alan Bligh is really, really showing how badly FW is screwing up HH. And it all started with Book 7: Inferno.
Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience
I'm sure Horus would beat him 1v1, I haven't done the mathhammer but so far from experience absolutely nothing I've tested against him can beat him now Scoria's been nerfed. Disabling strike is just too powerful
As a Sons of Horus player, I wish I could agree! Disabling Strike is awesome, but in this case, the only thing it would do is allow Horus to hit The Lion on a 3+ after two rounds of close combat. The WORST to hit roll the Lion ever needs is a 4+ due to The Lion's special rule "Absolute Focus". They both wound on a 2+, so relative strengths is negated. As the Lions takes wounds, he gets more attacks. The advantage here might be to Horus with his 3++ vs. the Lions 4++... but it's rerollable, so effectively gives him a 2++. I really think it would be a close match, and could go either way depending on the dice. My point here, is that there is NOTHING in the fluff AT ALL that says The Lion should be able to challenge Horus one on one and win. Give him a good fight, maybe. But win against the Warmaster? This is when the passing of Alan Bligh is really, really showing how badly FW is screwing up HH. And it all started with Book 7: Inferno.
I absolutely agree, I don't have an overwhelming affinity for Horus but from the fluff he should absolutely be the top dog. I believe the mathhammer supports him coming out on top over the Lion the majority of the time but frankly El Johnsons rules are ridiculous and totally out of character. Rules shouldn't be written in a way that actively deny the defining traits of other major characters, at least not in the 30k setting. "always hit on a 4+" seems like a contrived way of making the Lion stand up to his brothers and completely contradicts everything that makes Horus unique and special. Why should this devastating fighting style that utterly defines Horus' personality (and a fantastic rule if i do say so myself) be countered by the Lion of all people, let alone by a cop out like "battle focus". I dislike it for the same reason that I dislike Russ' armour, its too major and has no basis in the setting
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/07 18:08:26
mrFickle wrote: Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus, Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Certain Primarchs have a lot of special rules, such as "Can never be wounded on a better then 4+", or "During a challenge, this model's Invulnerable save increases to a 3+", or "If this model charges, it always strikes first regardless of Initiative values". Some of the rules are "During the subsequent round of combat, decrease the WS of the opponent's WS by -1", etc. etc. Magnus was bonkers broken when he first came out because of the psykic powers he could select. That list has been really nerfed, and he is now merely "good" (still top 5). Russ, if he could live to round two or more of combat, would win because of his stat decrements to his opponents (it's been nerfed a bit, but still very powerful). Sanguinius is still top dog- his high initiative, WS 9, and special rules when he charges and the first round of close combat means he can possibly one round just about any other Primarch. And he will always get the charge due to his rules. Not to mention he is the best hit and run character in the game.
So yeah, when we see the Lion's stat line, it's pretty average for the Primarchs except his WS 8 and Initiative 7 (only 2-3 Primarchs have an Initiative of 7, most are 6). His 2+/4++ once per phase rerollable is OP, combined with a Plasma gun that is appearently a Salvo weapon that causes blindness. The Wolf Blade is stupid good because of one rule: Fleshbane. This means The Lion always wounds on a 2+. So at worst, he will need a 4+ to hit, and always wounds on a 2+ with an AP 2 weapon. That just about automatically makes him one of the best melee Primarchs in 30K. If they took away Fleshbane or made the Wolf Blade unwieldly, then he would be in a fair, balanced spot. As previewed by Forge World, he is easily top 3 now. Maybe #2 for close combat master after Sanguinius. And that's a HUGE disconnect from the lore and everything we know about Lion el' Johnson.
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore. Imo you don't know much about The Lion's lore.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 18:24:08
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/07 18:25:27
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
His entire lore is that he fought chaos tainted beast in the wood from his first age. He fought a duel with Russ to a stalemate before the Heresy : are you telling me that Russ is not one of the greatest duelist too ? And Macaldor described him as some kind of apex predator even amongst his fellow primarchs :
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature -- a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more...something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." — Remembrances of Malcador the Sigillite
In the lore, what is indeed critical to his identity is that everything he did/does is shrouded in mystery as he does not explain himself nor does he search for recognition, unlike his fellow primarch (and unlike Horus specifically). So yes nobody mention that he is a great duelist, unlike his other more flamboyant brothers. Russ is very similar to him in this regard - the role of both Russ and the Lion in the Rangdan genocide enlight this trait they have in common. Plus the lore of 40K is FULL of exemple of "good duelist" getting trashed by less flamboyant but more effective fighters.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 18:39:46
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist?
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
His entire lore is that he fought chaos tainted beast in the wood from his first age. He fought a duel with Russ to a stalemate before the Heresy : are you telling me that Russ is not one of the greatest duelist too ? And Macaldor described him as some kind of apex predator even amongst his fellow primarchs :
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature -- a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more...something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." — Remembrances of Malcador the Sigillite
And Kurze grew up a violent criminal who hunted from the shadows, Angron was attacked by a party of aspect Eldar, killed them all at age 5 and was raised on a gladiator hellscape fighting techno-barbarians, Mortarion battled through plague mists, Vulcan fought great dragon-like monsters. Whats your point? every primarch was raised on a diet of war, that justifies nothing. He fought Russ and couldn't break him, clearly neither were fighting to kill, that is entirely different. The Lion only won with a sucker punch when Russ relented. Angron beats Russ into the dirt barehanded, Magnus is soundly beating Russ before a "blind" flail hits his eye and incapacitates him, Russ isn't the be all and end all. Certainly drawing him in a borderline friendly bout doesn't show much.
Wow Malcador takes note of Lion El'Johnson unsettling his brothers with the way he isolates himself. That is social niceties and nothing more, the Great Khan freaks out Fulgrim, Magnus unsettles many of his brothers and Kurze is disgusted by Lorgar and his sons, this also proves absolutely nothing, Where at any point does this quote reference combat potential? It's completely meaningless. Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion. Magnus and Lorgar note that only Sanguinius amonst the loyalists has a hope of defeating Angron in a duel, Corax describes Angron as one of the most fierce Primarch's, Horus is defined as the most powerful primarch in many instances. Where does anyone talk about the Lion like this? Never.
As a note, the Primarchs would often duel and spar against one another in the palace on Terra when they were reunited (before the discovery of Alpharius), many of them had a fairly good understanding of the others capabilities. In addition, these are masters of war, combat experts. They would be capable of analyzing one anothers fighting styles and capabilities very quickly. The Lion may have kept himself to himself but he was hardly one for keeping his light under a bushel
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/07 18:45:35
How is the Lion being one of the best primarch a "disconnect from the lore" ? That's absolutly false, in the lore he is presented as one of the best primarch, a rival to Horus and putting many of his brothers to shame. Even in comparaison to Horus, the Lion does not appear weaker in any way in the lore.
When is he ever presented as a high level duelist? Horus, Angron, Fulgrim, Sanguinius etc all have multiple mentions/feats which place them as the finest warriors. The Lion has next to none, save his own sense of self worth. As a commander, sure, he was believed by many to be a viable candidate for warmaster and smarted when it was given to Horus hence why we believe he should be more of a force multiplier. His rules place him as one of the strongest Primarchs in a 1v1 which has very little basis in fluff, he beat Fulgrim, he beats Sanguinius, his rules counter Horus' unique and highly fluffy disabling strike. Why? There is no justification for this in lore, its blatant power creep
His entire lore is that he fought chaos tainted beast in the wood from his first age. He fought a duel with Russ to a stalemate before the Heresy : are you telling me that Russ is not one of the greatest duelist too ? And Macaldor described him as some kind of apex predator even amongst his fellow primarchs :
"Of all the Primarchs, save perhaps Mortarion, Lion El'Jonson stands apart. Partially this is due to his taciturn nature -- a brooding silence hangs over him at all times. Yet there is something more...something buried beneath his noble exterior. Perhaps this is a result of his upbringing, growing to maturity alone in the monster-ridden forests of Caliban. Even at a council of war, the Lion moves like an apex predator. He is always watching, always planning, always hunting. He unnerves even his brothers." — Remembrances of Malcador the Sigillite
And Kurze grew up a violent criminal who hunted from the shadows, Angron was attacked by a party of aspect Eldar, killed them all at age 5 and was raised on a gladiator hellscape fighting techno-barbarians, Mortarion battled through plague mists, Vulcan fought great dragon-like monsters. Whats your point? every primarch was raised on a diet of war, that justifies nothing. He fought Russ and couldn't break him, clearly neither were fighting to kill, that is entirely different. The Lion only won with a sucker punch when Russ relented. Angron beats Russ into the dirt [b]barehanded[b], Magnus is soundly beating Russ before a "blind" flail hits his eye and incapacitates him, Russ isn't the be all and end all. Certainly drawing him in a borderline friendly bout doesn't show much.
Wow Malcador takes note of Lion El'Johnson unsettling his brothers with the way he isolates himself. That is social niceties and nothing more, the Great Khan freaks out Fulgrim, Magnus unsettles many of his brothers and Kurze is disgusted by Lorgar and his sons, this also proves absolutely nothing, Where at any point does this quote reference combat potential? It's completely meaningless. Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion. Magnus and Lorgar note that only Sanguinius amonst the loyalists has a hope of defeating Angron in a duel, Corax describes Angron as one of the most fierce Primarch's, Horus is defined as the most powerful primarch in many instances. Where does anyone talk about the Lion like this? Never.
You brushed aside the word apex predator like it has no meaning at all : the Lion is basically an autist, unable to interract with his brother normally is what you get from that line ? ... The Lion only met Horus once and the scene is written to clearly indicate that the Lion is not inferior to Horus in any way as some of Horus' own men feel the need to take a knee before the Lion even moreso than they do when they face Horus. You're just picking the lore that you wish because you're a Horus fanboy.
Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion.
Which source ? No primarch actually knows the Lion. You're talking about Russ ?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 18:46:40
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall. You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/07 18:51:26
You have such a basic understanding of the Lore. Angron is the "most fierce", maybe the strongest primarch next to Vulkan, but he is also described as being too enraged to actually fight efficiently in a duel.
Russ, for exemple, consider him to be an easy primarch to deal with, and despite what you seems to argue, Russ completly plays with him as a lesson during the Ghenna massacre.
Yeah nah, Lion shouldn't be outclassing nearly so many Primarchs, and many of the older ones NEED to be brought up to scale with the newer ones (Angron, Fulgrim, Kurze and Mortarion especially).
The Lion is definitely in the top ten, but top 5? I don't think so. Literally EVERY Primarch could have been fighting chaos tainted beasts in the woods - Ferrus kills a Necron construct with his bare hands, either Fulgrim or Lorgar does similar with an Avatar. The duel between Russ and Lion isn't a proper "to the death", it's an honour duel - and Lion only wins it because Russ gives up. And I'm not a Russ fan, but that wasn't a Lion victory.
Your Malcador quote is good, but it's more just telling us that the other Primarchs see Lion as the weird kid who's always just a little too twitchy. He's definitely formidable, but is he Horus tier good? Absolutely not. Sanguinius? Definitely not. Angron? Don't think so - much as I've said that Angron didn't curbstomp Guilliman at Nuceria, that was because Angron wasn't even armed properly. Even the Khan and Fulgrim I'd be rating higher.
The Lion's strength is his tactical acumen and single-minded determination at the cost of everything else. He sees everything as a threat, and is completely oblivious to tact or doubt, just dealing with things in the most tactically minded way as possible (note that this is different from Guilliman's strategic mastery, who has better statecraft, better civic logistical management, and more diplomacy; and Perturabo's excellent grasp of technology, siegecraft, and combat logistics).
You brushed aside the word apex predator like it has no meaning at all : the Lion is basically an autist, unable to interract with his brother normally is what you get from that line ? ... The Lion only met Horus once and the scene is written to clearly indicate that the Lion is not inferior to Horus in any way as some of Horus' own men feel the need to take a knee before the Lion even moreso than they do when they face Horus.
You're just picking the lore that you wish because you're a Horus fanboy.
And Russ is described as an Apex Predator uncountable times yet he gets laid out by an unarmed Angron, mauled by Horus and knocked out by the Lion. What is the source of this by the way?
Most Astartes feel a sense of awe when they see another Primarch, they are conditioned to their own. Primarchs are glorious, demi-godlike figures. There are multiple occassions of Astartes being overawed by other legions primarchs. I don't understand how that in any way endorses the Lion as Horus' equal. Clearly the Emperor didn't believe it, neither did the majority of other primarchs including sanguinius
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WhiteDog wrote: You have such a basic understanding of the Lore. Angron is the "most fierce", maybe the strongest primarch next to Vulkan, but he is also described as being too enraged to actually fight efficiently in a duel.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
Russ, for exemple, consider him to be an easy primarch to deal with, and despite what you seems to argue, Russ completly plays with him as a lesson during the Ghenna massacre.
I dont consider Russ an easy Primarch, he is one of the best, top 10 but not the absolute premium tier. Yes Russ is a vastly superior tactician to Angron and that is evidenced. We are talking about duels ignoring your sidelines into other theaters of war when you can't find any evidence to support your claims. Russ is curbstomped in the duel, which is what we are discussing. Would be nice if you could remain on topic for a change
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 19:01:26
You guys misjudge the power tier of primarchs because you think the history is the truth. Horus can be described as the most perfect of his brothers, hence why he got the title of Warmaster. He can also be described as the primarch with the most intimate relationship with the Emperor, or the one that knew the most how to protect his own legion and play with his brothers to put himself in the best position. The lore is deep, it has arguments for many things. I too believe that Kurze is one of the best duelist for many reasons, one of those being that he can see the future ... All in all yes there are many arguments to defend the idea that the Lion is indeed an absolute beast of a fighter.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
And Lorgar and Magnus obviously never failed in anything and are always right in the lore. Russ vs Angron is not a duel : there's one primarch trying to make another primarch learn something, and he completly outplays him in the process ! Russ vs the Lion was a real duel, not a friendly argument, until Russ understood that it was a stupid fight.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 19:08:09
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall.
You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
I am actually not at all, Horus doesn't even rank in my top 3 favorite Primarch's, but I have read a number of novels with Horus and his SoH as titular protagonists/antagonists and have an understanding of their way of war/ethos to battle. To my understanding Horus is simply the best in a single combat situation, he understands all of his brothers strengths and weaknesses, combine that with the SoH's instinct to mercilessly exploit their opponents in any way possible, combine that with the fact that he has the best gear (courtesy of Big E's favoritism) and I think he is the strongest primarch. Would he win in a Legion vs Legion scenario against others? probably not. In an empty room Horus vs any other Primarch I think its him who is walking away though, besides maybe Magnus
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 19:07:47
WhiteDog wrote:You brushed aside the word apex predator like it has no meaning at all
Malcador's quote says he "moves" like one, not that he is.
It's basically saying that Lion is an incredibly guarded, reserved individual, who constantly radiates predatory energy. That doesn't mean he's necessarily a good fighter. Now, obviously he is, but his movements being described as "apex predator" don't mean much on that.
The Lion only met Horus once and the scene is written to clearly indicate that the Lion is not inferior to Horus in any way as some of Horus' own men feel the need to take a knee before the Lion even moreso than they do when they face Horus.
Eh, I hate to say it, but that's not uncommon amongst a whole range of Primarchs. The same occurs for Sanguinius and Dorn, I believe. It's just the effect that all Primarchs have on people.
You're just picking the lore that you wish because you're a Horus fanboy.
I'm not a Horus fanboy, but even I know when he's the superior Primarch.
Multiple sources (from Primarch's themselves) actively endorse Angron, Sanguinius and Horus as being far beyond the Lion.
Which source ? No primarch actually knows the Lion. You're talking about Russ ?
Can't speak for their source, but Scars indicates that the only two Primarchs who everyone outright admits are wildcards are the Khan and Mortarion. Everyone else pretty much admits that they know everyone's fighting style, and widely agree that Sanguinius and Horus are the best two, but that they don't know Khan and Morty.
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall.
The truly best take.
Trying to compare who was the "best" Primarch is a complete mess given how many cases of certain Primarchs beating others we have, as well as the impressions of characters in-universe. For example, we have Thiel in Unremembered Empire (I think) who makes the claim that Guilliman is in the top 6 strongest Primarchs easily, which even as an Ultramarine fan, I disagree with.
You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
Eh, he was both, just like how Sanguinius was both a duellist without peer, and super duper popular.
At the very least, Lion should not be mathhammer beating Sangy.
WhiteDog wrote:Angron is the "most fierce", maybe the strongest primarch next to Vulkan, but he is also described as being too enraged to actually fight efficiently in a duel.
Unarmed, he beats both Russ and Guilliman.
Russ, for exemple, consider him to be an easy primarch to deal with, and despite what you seems to argue, Russ completly plays with him as a lesson during the Ghenna massacre.
Not really. Russ teaches him a lesson by losing, that doesn't mean he was a better fighter than Angron.
And Russ basically won in a duel against Horus...
A battle largely defined by the Spear of Russ - without that weapon, Russ wouldn't have done nearly so well. And then you have the fight against Magnus, where only a blind flail takes out Magnus' eye, and Magnus still punches out one of Russ' hearts. And that's meant as no disrespect to Russ, I just think that it's not so easy to categorise who the best Primarchs were, beyond Sanguinius and Horus.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
And Lorgar and Magnus obviously never failed in anything and are always right in the lore. Russ vs Angron is not a duel : there's one primarch trying to make another primarch learn something, and he completly outplays him in the process ! Russ vs the Lion was a real duel, not a friendly argument, until Russ understood that it was a stupid fight.
Sorry, what?? Have you even read the passage? Russ attempts to persuade Angron down, he asks him why he mutilated his sons, presents his case. Angron gives him his reply and Russ literally launches himself at Angron in rage. Russ attacks Angron, not the other way around. Russ goes in with the intention of teaching Angron a lesson and things escalate far beyond that.
Isn't he throttled in the first duel with Kurze? Also Kurze is hardly a high level primarch either, is Corax remembered as a fantastic duellist because he beats Lorgar, or Dorn a peak duellist for killing Alpharius/Omegon? This also means very little
Russ apparently is, and he stated that he didn't think he could best Curze. I put it down to the Primarchs having varying styles, and no one being better overall.
You on the other hand are clearly a Horus fan who imagines him to be the 'superbestest', as opposed to what he actually was, the most popular amongst his peers.
I am actually not at all, Horus doesn't even rank in my top 3 favorite Primarch's, but I have read a number of novels with Horus and his SoH as titular protagonists/antagonists and have an understanding of their way of war/ethos to battle. To my understanding Horus is simply the best in a single combat situation, he understands all of his brothers strengths and weaknesses, combine that with the SoH's instinct to mercilessly exploit their opponents in any way possible, combine that with the fact that he has the best gear (courtesy of Big E's favoritism) and I think he is the strongest primarch. Would he win in a Legion vs Legion scenario against others? probably not. In an empty room Horus vs any other Primarch I think its him who is walking away though, besides maybe Magnus
Horus speciality is not fighting : he is the best manager. He knows how to use tools efficiently, being his legion or his fellow primarch, and he knows how to place himself in a way that makes him the hero of the story (completly opposite to the Lion). But he does not actually fight that many duels and only win by the end of the heresy, when he is not a simple primarch anymore.
Sorry, what?? Have you even read the passage? Russ attempts to persuade Angron down, he asks him why he mutilated his sons, presents his case. Angron gives him his reply and Russ literally launches himself at Angron in rage. Russ attacks Angron, not the other way around. Russ goes in with the intention of teaching Angron a lesson and things escalate far beyond that.
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 19:15:15
WhiteDog wrote:You guys misjudge the power tier of primarchs because you think the history is the truth.
On the contrary, I'm taking all the fights we actually see, and judging them. My judgement: it's incredibly difficult to tell which Primarchs are the strongest, because their fights are anything but consistent.
Horus can be described as the most perfect of his brothers, hence why he got the title of Warmaster. He can also be described as the primarch with the most intimate relationship with the Emperor, or the one that knew the most how to protect his own legion and play with his brothers to put himself in the best position.
The lore is deep, it has arguments for many things. I too believe that Kurze is one of the best duelist for many reasons, one of those being that he can see the future ... All in all yes there are many arguments to defend the idea that the Lion is indeed an absolute beast of a fighter.
No-one's saying he's not a beast of a fighter. But it's certainly not clear how high he does rate.
Try again, Betrayer completely contradicts what you are saying here, Lorgar and Magnus actively note that the ONLY Loyalist primarch capable of dealing with Angron is Sanguinius. also if you actually bother read back through the thread rather than quickly churning out uninformed replies you'll see that i note that Angron's fighting style is inefficient, he wins nonetheless (every single duel he fights)
And Lorgar and Magnus obviously never failed in anything and are always right in the lore.
Perhaps so - but, by that same token, the quote you use from Malcador about "apex predator", could that not also be questioned in it's validity?
Russ vs Angron is not a duel : there's one primarch trying to make another primarch learn something, and he completly outplays him in the process !
Again, Russ' outplaying is because his army is stronger. Not by some virtue of his own swordsmanship.
Russ vs the Lion was a real duel, not a friendly argument, until Russ understood that it was a stupid fight.
Doesn't sound like something someone would think in a "real duel". I think you're getting hung up on "friendly argument" - it's not to say they weren't fighting, but they weren't trying to kill eachother.
Horus speciality is not fighting : he is the best manager. He knows how to use tools efficiently, being his legion or his fellow primarch, and he knows how to place himself in a way that makes him the hero of the story (completly opposite to the Lion). But he does not actually fight that many duels and only win by the end of the heresy, when he is not a simple primarch anymore.
It is possible to be a good commander and a good fighter, these are superhuman demi-gods, the pinnacle of humanity, you cannot apply human limitations to them. Oh so your argument for the Lion being stronger/as strong is Horus doesn't have many feats? The Lion has next to no feats either and doesn't share anywhere near the same praise from his brothers that Horus does, double standard much? And yes I know, you're going to claim that as an outsider nobody truly understands him but we are looking at evidence here. The Lion has next to nothing supporting your argument. I still don't understand what you are basing you argument on besides the one quote from Malcador about how he carries himself. Is that it?
Horus speciality is not fighting : he is the best manager. He knows how to use tools efficiently, being his legion or his fellow primarch, and he knows how to place himself in a way that makes him the hero of the story (completly opposite to the Lion). But he does not actually fight that many duels and only win by the end of the heresy, when he is not a simple primarch anymore.
It is possible to be a good commander and a good fighter, these are superhuman demi-gods, the pinnacle of humanity, you cannot apply human limitations to them. Oh so your argument for the Lion being stronger/as strong is Horus doesn't have many feats? The Lion has next to no feats either and doesn't share anywhere near the same praise from his brothers that Horus does, double standard much? And yes I know, you're going to claim that as an outsider nobody truly understands him but we are looking at evidence here. The Lion has next to nothing supporting your argument. I still don't understand what you are basing you argument on besides the one quote from Malcador about how he carries himself. Is that it?
No I'm saying both Horus' strength and flaw was that he wanted to be in the light, to get recognition from humanity and the emperor for his deeds, and he did things also to get that recognition. The Lion's strength and flaw is the exact opposite : he thought loyalty was enough and never wanted to be known nor to share any kind of bond with other primarch : he did things not to achieve egoistical objectives but because he thought they were sufficient by themselves. The result is that Horus is described as the best, and the Lion is not described at all, or with suspicion. And that leads you to misunderstand the Lion.
The entirety of 40K lore is full of that kind of paradox/contradiction : Abaddon is "the best" space marine 1rst captain, yet he only fail ; Lucius is the best "duelist" yet he dies again and again and revives in the corpse of his opponent ; etc. Nobody is what they seem, and the truth of it all cannot be truly understood without some measure of interpretation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 19:26:44
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/07 19:27:34
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won.
Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
WhiteDog wrote: Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
As would Russ, under Angron's heel. If Angron had wanted Russ dead (and I mean, properly), Russ would be. But, I agree Angron would have been killed if he had done so.