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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 19:45:20
Subject: The lion a new
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Nimble Glade Rider
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WhiteDog wrote:Yazima wrote:WhiteDog wrote:
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won.
Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
Obviously, this isn't some great insight on your behalf, the author literally wrote an piece about it at the end of the book
Angron still would have killed Russ, this entire discussion is primarch 1v1's, why do you keep trying to bring Legions into it, at no point did I assert that Angron wouldn't have died if Russ had willed it, but certainly not directly by his hand
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 19:51:44
Subject: The lion a new
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Elite Tyranid Warrior
France
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Yazima wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Yazima wrote:WhiteDog wrote: The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won. Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
Obviously, this isn't some great insight on your behalf, the author literally wrote an piece about it at the end of the book Angron still would have killed Russ, this entire discussion is primarch 1v1's, why do you keep trying to bring Legions into it, at no point did I assert that Angron wouldn't have died if Russ had willed it, but certainly not directly by his hand
No you kept saying Angron won against Russ and I told you Russ wanted to show something to Angron from the beginning to the end and not to win the fight, that's why I am talking about their legion. It's not a duel, and only Angron's simple mind, and your own bias, prevent you from understanding that. Funnily enough, the real 1v1 fight between Russ and Horus, a fight that actually happened and was described not recollected by one of the party, with two primarch clearly set to kill each other ... is not a proof of anything to you because ... well because you're a Horus fanboy.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/07 19:54:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 20:01:58
Subject: The lion a new
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Nimble Glade Rider
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WhiteDog wrote:Yazima wrote:WhiteDog wrote:Yazima wrote:WhiteDog wrote:
The fight ends with the entire world eater legion being basically surrounded, readied to be butchered by the SW : Russ used the fight with Angron to put him in this situation and make him understand the folly of his ways.
Quote please. Angron is surrounded, Russ is in the dirt with Angron's boot on his throat. Please show me where Betrayer states that the entire Legion is surrounded ready to be butchered. Angron would have died, he accepts this, he also states his Legion would still have won. He even says "look at your men, they are losing Leman". The space wolves would have decapitated the Legion and are undoubtedly a better example of Astartes, they achieve the Emperors objectives in a far more efficient manner as he intended but they weren't winning. If the battle had gone to its conclusion the wolves would have lost. Either way it is irrelevant, the discussion is about Primarch duels not their adherence to wider battle strategy which again you have sidelined into. Russ wasn't 'baiting' Angron into a duel so that he could surround him, his men did that of their own accord because they are a cohesive and complete fighting force that actually secure their objectives. This is deliberately illustrated so as to contrast the World Eaters and show how the nails have robbed them of their agency. Russ attacked Angron out of rage, rage when he references rebellion against the Emperor, I believe the words "take the slaving bastards head" drive Russ over the edge and he launches himself at Angron and is then soundly beaten.
Do you understand the Betrayer part about the night of the wolf is written from Angron's perspective ? The entire point of the Betrayer is Angron arguing that 1) he would have died 2) his legion still would have won.
Out of those two fact what we know for sure was that he would have died.
Obviously, this isn't some great insight on your behalf, the author literally wrote an piece about it at the end of the book
Angron still would have killed Russ, this entire discussion is primarch 1v1's, why do you keep trying to bring Legions into it, at no point did I assert that Angron wouldn't have died if Russ had willed it, but certainly not directly by his hand
No you kept saying Angron won against Russ and I told you Russ wanted to show something to Angron from the beginning to the end and not to win the fight, that's why I am talking about their legion. It's not a duel, and only Angron's simple mind, and your own bias, prevent you from understanding that.
Funnily enough, the real 1v1 fight between Russ and Horus, a fight that actually happened and was described not recollected by one of the party, with two primarch clearly set to kill each other ... is not a proof of anything to you because ... well because you're a Horus fanboy.
There are two different passages in Betrayer that described the Night of the Wolf, the second, which you refer to, is from Angrons perspective. The first, in my memory is far more objective and described by neither party. That is where Russ initially attacks Angron, it is never described as some elaborate bait by Leman Russ, his objective is to have Angron reach him and dmonstrate his wolves superiority. The duel is no part of it, he goes too far, he attacks his brother and he almost pays for it with his life. Also the fight with Guilliman is from the perspective of chapter master Lorkhe who was present at both the night of the wolf and Angron's duel with Gulliman. The book notes that he watched a second primarch crawl away from Angron's wrath, thats an outsider perspective, Russ lost. That's not Angron's interpretation as much as you'd like to paint it that way. Russ is baited into combat with Angron when he gives him the true reason why he serves, the true benefit of the nails. It seems like you didn't quite get that
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 20:27:30
Subject: The lion a new
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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Tamwulf wrote:mrFickle wrote:Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 20:34:40
Subject: The lion a new
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Nimble Glade Rider
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godardc wrote: Tamwulf wrote:mrFickle wrote:Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 20:58:04
Subject: The lion a new
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Abel
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Yazima wrote: godardc wrote: Tamwulf wrote:mrFickle wrote:Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
How so? I'm looking over his rules and see nothing that really stands out or makes him better then the other Primarchs vs. Primarch match?
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Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 23:06:14
Subject: The lion a new
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Nimble Glade Rider
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Tamwulf wrote:Yazima wrote: godardc wrote: Tamwulf wrote:mrFickle wrote:Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
How so? I'm looking over his rules and see nothing that really stands out or makes him better then the other Primarchs vs. Primarch match?
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Perturabo#Perturabo_VS_other_Primarchs:
Check out the mathhammer here, its basically entirely his hammer but he beats almost every other primarch
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 23:24:42
Subject: The lion a new
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Gavin Thorpe
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Yazima wrote::
Check out the mathhammer here, its basically entirely his hammer but he beats almost every other primarch
EDIT: I am a big donkey and forgot that Forgebreaker is Concussive.
Perturabo is an absolute beast because he is very good at crippling his target to WS1 with a small number of very accurate, very powerful attacks. At the same time he enjoys being hit on a 5+ and a thick Invul.
Dopey me, Pert is indeed extremely good at this job.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/08 00:12:42
WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/07 23:49:08
Subject: The lion a new
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Abel
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Thank you, an interesting read! They didn't do vs. Sanguinius. The fight against Magnus- No psychic powers? LOL OK. The Horus fight doesn't take into account dividing up his attacks between the Talon and Worldbreaker, or the bonus attacks Horus gets when Perturabo is reduced to WS4 or his slowly degraded strength. And as noted, Horus' stats can't be reduced. So he doesn't really care about blindness or concussive either. The Lion doesn't really care about Blindness (I7! Though a 1 always fails...), and even if blinded, he will still hit on a 4+, and wound on a 2+. And with his rerollable 4++...
Perturabo wouldn't win vs. Sang, Russ, Horus, Magnus, or Guiliman (!!!), or Curze if we use Hit and Run (which, umm... why wouldn't you?)... in other words, Perturabo is the King of the Second Stringers, but still falls to the Big Boys. In a vacuum, where the rest of the army is not included. Or, apparently, Psychic Powers. Or Hit and Run. /shrug
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Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 03:43:34
Subject: The lion a new
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Actually Perty wins against Kurze even counting Hit And Run. I also don't see what Sang does that Kurze or Corax do in the first place. The hammer prevails.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 11:15:33
Subject: The lion a new
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Dakka Veteran
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Isn’t perts hammer also unwieldy?
Seem to remember it being amusing that he couldn’t swing his own hammer properly.
Also have to remember that ferrus can also tank hits like mad and his hammer also has concussive, along with strikedown too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 12:45:34
Subject: The lion a new
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Jackal90 wrote:Isn’t perts hammer also unwieldy?
Seem to remember it being amusing that he couldn’t swing his own hammer properly.
If we're talking about Forgebreaker, that's because it's not Perty's hammer. It's Ferrus', made by Fulgrim.
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They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 14:11:11
Subject: The lion a new
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Screaming Shining Spear
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I meant to ask earlier, did angron really hold up the leg of a titan?
Doesn't that make him getting towards hulk levels of strength?
If so, wow, never had any idea that the primarchs had that level of physical power.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 14:25:04
Subject: The lion a new
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Gavin Thorpe
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kingheff wrote:I meant to ask earlier, did angron really hold up the leg of a titan?
Doesn't that make him getting towards hulk levels of strength?
If so, wow, never had any idea that the primarchs had that level of physical power.
It's in the Betrayer book, but yes.
Many of the Heresy books imply that the Primarchs are far weirder than they might initially appear, with lots of Warp juju and psychic aspects to their biology. They are clearly not simple flesh and blood, and the Emperor appears to have been making some shady deals when creating them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/08 14:27:18
WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 14:39:39
Subject: The lion a new
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Nimble Glade Rider
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When is it ever implied that the majority of the titans weight isnt on Angron? Its stepping to crush, the weight would be going into the descending foot, not the standing one or it would be massively off balance. The titan crew also describe a feeling of pushing back so its not like hes only holding it up
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 15:14:53
Subject: The lion a new
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Screaming Shining Spear
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Is it just inconsistent power levels?
I thought vulkan shoulder charging a baneblade out of the way was pretty op but that's chump change compared to intercepting and then pushing back against a titan.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/08 19:14:10
Subject: The lion a new
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Gavin Thorpe
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It's probably never implied but something that I made up to preserve my own suspension of disbelief, now I think about it. Angron gets a bit more leeway in that respect because I like him but it's a very silly scene.
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WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/09 02:15:20
Subject: The lion a new
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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kingheff wrote:Is it just inconsistent power levels?
I thought vulkan shoulder charging a baneblade out of the way was pretty op but that's chump change compared to intercepting and then pushing back against a titan.
Doesn't Mortarion do something big to a baneblade too?
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/09 08:19:24
Subject: The lion a new
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Elite Tyranid Warrior
France
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Apparently in the last book (Saturnine) Sanguinius basically roflstomp a few titans.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/09 10:09:47
Subject: The lion a new
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Screaming Shining Spear
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WhiteDog wrote:Apparently in the last book (Saturnine) Sanguinius basically roflstomp a few titans.
I just listened to valrak's summary and it sounds... unlikely to be effective to me to say the least!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/28 10:53:19
Subject: The lion a new
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So looks like GW have done their own primarch tournament and the lion is the winner for the loyalist
Thought you all might find it interesting as it compares to the math hammer that was done for this although I don’t think the math hammer did a knockout style tournament
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/27/primarch-death-match-part-1-loyalists/?utm_content=
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/28 14:37:22
Subject: The lion a new
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Abel
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 The latest Loyalist Primarch models managed to make it all the way to the end round and fought each other, and the Lion wins, just like in the fluff. Imagine that! And for some reason, the two power houses (Sang and Russ) fight in the first round. Why did they give Sang the Blade Encarmine instead of Telestro and the Moonsilver blade? And no shooting or charging totally gimps certain Primarchs that rely on that initial charge or hit and run. Ah well. It is not surprising at all that The Lion won this.
Would love to see this with all the Primarchs, not just the loyalist.
Still cool that GW did this.
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Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/28 19:52:56
Subject: The lion a new
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Screaming Shining Spear
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I enjoyed the auspex tactics video with the new marines going toe to toe with a more rounded calculation, especially as my boy won!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/01 13:33:01
Subject: The lion a new
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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I like the model.
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See that stuff above? Completely true. All of it, every single word. Stands to reason. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/02 17:11:01
Subject: The lion a new
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Wow, imagine that when their latest product is the one that wins
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/02 18:54:42
Subject: The lion a new
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Fixture of Dakka
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Or more generally the Lion is actually decent at combat and it's fair that with luck he wins?
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/05 08:09:54
Subject: The lion a new
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/05 09:06:07
Subject: The lion a new
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yazima wrote: Tamwulf wrote:Yazima wrote: godardc wrote: Tamwulf wrote:mrFickle wrote:Which of the 30k primarchs has the best melee stats/ rules. Lion has ws 8 and can’t have worse than 4+ To hit regardless of other combatants rules. Who’s better than that?
Primarchs with WS 6: Lorgar
Primarchs with WS 7: WS: Manus, Guilliman, Mortarion, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, Magnus
Primarchs with WS 8: Fulgrim, Dorn, Perturbo, Curze, Horus,
Primarchs with WS 9: Angron, Sanguinius, Russ
Why has the Khan only ws7 and Dorn / perturabo 8 ? And Mangus 7 not 6 like Lorgar ?
I'm not exactly up to date with those Primarch but... Seems all over the place
Perturabo actually beats most other Primarchs which i find fairly ridiculous, despite the fact that he is one of my favourites
How so? I'm looking over his rules and see nothing that really stands out or makes him better then the other Primarchs vs. Primarch match?
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Perturabo#Perturabo_VS_other_Primarchs:
Check out the mathhammer here, its basically entirely his hammer but he beats almost every other primarch
Check out their math hammer on Russ, according to them he will always beat every other primarch
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Leman_Russ
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/05/05 15:19:34
Subject: Re:The lion a new
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Abel
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1d4chan didn't do any mathhammer, they just made some statements about Russ' prowess. Russ, when he was first released in that travesty of a HH book (Book VII: Inferno), was broken, not quite as badly as Magnus, but darn close. The Space Wolves FAQ really reined in Russ' armor.
Going further off topic, The Space Wolves are a mess of an army with as ton of contradictory rules, nonsensical wargear options, and army wide special rules that don't apply to their special units. Taking Russ allows you to use Varagyr Terminators as Troops, but they can't use the the one Frost Weapon that would make them awesome, nor can about 75% of the army special abilities apply to them because they are in Cataphracti terminator armor. Making Veteran Tacticals into Troops was AWESOME before the HUGE NERF Veteran Tactical's received. The compulsory requirements of a very restrictive HQ choices / 1000 points, the lack of Chaplains, Librarians, or "mega-Apothecary", and that you MUST take at least two units of Grey Slayers to fulfill any Troops requirements... In a 3,000 point game, that's 4 HQ's and two units of Grey Slayers eating up close to 600+ points before you even get to the good stuff. Don't forget, Primarch's are Lords of War, not HQ units. Therefore, if you take Russ, you'll still need 4 HQ's + Russ... Or, you know, over 1,000 points of Russ+compulsory units before you get to take the other stuff.
HH Book VII really shows how much Forge World/GW had no clue what to do in the Horus Heresy without Alan Bligh. Book VII received a HUGE Errata/FAQ, the HH Erata had to change all the psychic power rules after Book VII thanks to the indestructible Murder Machine known as Magnus the Red and the Thousand Sons, and Book VIII Malevolence had to devote an astonishing 30 pages to rewrite the entire Lego Custodies army list. Talk about a huge blunder!
Book IX will still be welcomed as it will finally close out all the Primarchs. My collection of black books will be complete! After that, if GW/Forge World want to remake HH over for 8th edition (or probably 9th by that time...), all the power to them!
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Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience |
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