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Sterling191 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So one out of how many things I listed there?

I get that you want it, but why should you get it? What's the big deal with letting it remain a non-Deathwatch thing?

Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?

The fact that you dont comprehend why leaving an army with gaping holes in their roster is a bad thing speaks volumes.

This is one of the many problem with all the Marine sub factions not being from the same dex - they all should have the same base units but then you get major balance issues.....

Sterling191 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So one out of how many things I listed there?

I get that you want it, but why should you get it? What's the big deal with letting it remain a non-Deathwatch thing?

Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?

The fact that you dont comprehend why leaving an army with gaping holes in their roster is a bad thing speaks volumes.

Deathwatch have lasted this long without Vanguard stuff, why do they suddenly need it now?


If you want to argue that Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels should become a supplement book, ala the 'codex' Chapters? I'm down for it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Deathwatch have lasted this long without Vanguard stuff, why do they suddenly need it now?

You're not even trying to hide your bad faith arguments at this point. Deathwatch havent lasted. Theyre a sub-par army with significant deficiencies in their roster and ability loadout, especially in the context of every other Marine army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

If you want to argue that Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels should become a supplement book, ala the 'codex' Chapters? I'm down for it.

Thats not remotely what I'm saying, and you know it, but because you hate the supplement concept you're once again gaking on another army you want destroyed. Literally all you've done in this thread is babble on and on and on about how Deathwatch magically deserve to get the short end of the stick. So I'll ask again:

Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?

Sterling191 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Deathwatch have lasted this long without Vanguard stuff, why do they suddenly need it now?

You're not even trying to hide your bad faith arguments at this point. Deathwatch havent lasted. Theyre a sub-par army with significant deficiencies in their roster and ability loadout, especially in the context of every other Marine army.

Which has and has never had anything to do with the lack of Vanguard units. Unless we're going to pretend that a significant reason why Deathwatch were considered successful last edition was not their formations and the abilities tied to those formations or gimmicky lists like loading up on frag cannons, storm shields, etc etc?

 Kanluwen wrote:

If you want to argue that Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels should become a supplement book, ala the 'codex' Chapters? I'm down for it.

Thats not remotely what I'm saying, and you know it, but because you hate the supplement concept you're once again gaking on another army you want destroyed.

...the hell? who do you think I am? I genuinely cannot think of a time where I have done anything but support the supplement concept that we saw with the Marines book. The only thing I realistically have stated my dislike for was that they dragged out the releases and didn't add enough to the various subfactions. We should have seen 'signature units' for each Chapter and their Successors.

Literally all you've done in this thread is babble on and on and on about how Deathwatch magically deserve to get the short end of the stick. So I'll ask again:

Why shouldnt they get them? Especially when every other Marine army, you know the components that the Deathwatch are literally made from, has them?

And I'll say again: why do you need them so badly?

I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.

If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.

Deathwatch should have Vanguard Primaris if for no other reason than that is how Primaris operate. In most chapters becoming an Intercessor is like becoming a Tactical Marine. The space marine had to spend time as a Reiver, Hellblaster and who knows what else to reach the honor of being an Intercessor. Combine that with the largely modular design of Mark X armor, it is entirely expected that Deathwatch Primaris marine should have both the technical knowledge, experience and quite probably the equipment to equip themselves to whichever role the current mission involves. Vanguard Primaris in particular seem well suited for a large percent of Deathwatch missions.

Mechanically, I am less certain as I don't know how disruptive giving Deathwatch all Vanguard Primaris options. I just don't know much about Deathwatch beyond playing against them in Kill Team and having a passing knowledge of the different types of SIA. My gut says it probably isn't that much of an issue. If it is an issue, there is always increasing the ppm cost of said Primaris marine, or failing that, complete denial of SIA. Which I in the case of Eliminators already having their own special ammo don't need Deathwatch SIA as well. I do think Deathwatch should have access to Eliminators though as well as all the rest of the Primaris Infantry. Probably the Impulsor at very least of Primaris vehicles maybe even the Repulsor.

As a C:SM Primaris only player, I am not bothered by the idea that my entire army is also available to Deathwatch as long as the game can try to find an appropriate way to balance the two.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Which has and has never had anything to do with the lack of Vanguard units. Unless we're going to pretend that a significant reason why Deathwatch were considered successful last edition was not their formations and the abilities tied to those formations or gimmicky lists like loading up on frag cannons, storm shields, etc etc?

It absolutely has to do with the lack of the Vanguard, and the other Primaris wave 2 units that Deathwatch have been denied. They're not the only issue facing the army, but they're a significant component.

But nice try playing the "BUT MAH 7TH EDITION!!!!" card as a distraction, and trying to shame DW players for utilizing the few tools at their disposal to try and be successful with the army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

...the hell? who do you think I am? I genuinely cannot think of a time where I have done anything but support the supplement concept that we saw with the Marines book. The only thing I realistically have stated my dislike for was that they dragged out the releases and didn't add enough to the various subfactions. We should have seen 'signature units' for each Chapter and their Successors.

And yet here you are, doing your damndest to justify denying that kind of an expansion (an expansion I might add that every other Marine army has gotten) to the Deathwatch.

Internal consistency is clearly not your forte.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And I'll say again: why do you need them so badly?

Probably because I'm more than sick and tired of having what I consider my primary army ignored for more than a year.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.

Then stop defending them. If you have no concept of the justification, all you're doing is rubbing salt on the wounds of a group of pissed off people with your constant "YOU DONT DESERVE ANYTHING NICE, SHUT THE feth UP AND ACCEPT YOUR MEDIOCRITY" train that you've been on this entire thread.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.

If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.

Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.

Balance is not the reason. a) gw doesn't care about that one b) even if they did there's nothing inheritent there that makes it broken. If it's too good for current point costs those can be increased anyway

tneva82 wrote:

Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.

Kindly explain the Impulsor and Invictor then. How about showing me the "deathwatch shoulder pad" that goes on the Repulsor Executioner, and was magically added with the pre-supplement update? Or why the Reiver model, which doesnt have a Deathwatch Phobos shoulder pad, remains in the codex.

I think you don't understand what supplements are being referred to.

Sucks that you don't get what you want. But at this juncture, there's still at least the potential that they give a "Phobos" option for your Primaris killteams with the wargear.

Your problem might be that Deathwatch are not an army to begin with.

 BertBert wrote:
Your problem might be that Deathwatch are not an army to begin with.

Grey Knights are not an army.

Vanguard units are thematically hyper-appropriate for Deathwatch, and they need rules for 40K and Killteam.

On the tangent of mixing space marines back together, I’m heavily in favor of keeping Codex: Space Marines as it is (more or less) and throwing all the codex non-compliant regular chapters together into Codex Non—Compliant Space Marines. BA, DA, SW, and mayb Black Templars get thrown in here, along with a bunch of rules for custom non-compliant chapters.

Now, Grey Knights and Deathwatch either get put into Codex: Space Marine Specialists or are our into some kind of Imperial Agents codex.

DW are in an odd spot. A ton of unique features of the faction are in wargear options of traditional marine kits that GW seems to be finally ready to retire. We've got Primaris units, but without any unique weapon loadouts they're only differentiated by unit mixing and SIA, the former of which GW hasn't quite figured out how to make enticing and the latter of which has been largely outshined by Combat Doctrines.

The faction isn't really that far off the mark though honestly. It just feels like its in a weird place where its hard to make anything new for us until GW figures out how to make us properly Primaris compatible.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
Your problem might be that Deathwatch are not an army to begin with.

Grey Knights are not an army.

Vanguard units are thematically hyper-appropriate for Deathwatch, and they need rules for 40K and Killteam.

On the tangent of mixing space marines back together, I’m heavily in favor of keeping Codex: Space Marines as it is (more or less) and throwing all the codex non-compliant regular chapters together into Codex Non—Compliant Space Marines. BA, DA, SW, and mayb Black Templars get thrown in here, along with a bunch of rules for custom non-compliant chapters.

Now, Grey Knights and Deathwatch either get put into Codex: Space Marine Specialists or are our into some kind of Imperial Agents codex.

Why do people keep saying the Angels are non compliant - they are by their own lore as compliant or more than many other Chapters. They just had codexes and then loads of extra models which others did not get. Anyone familiar with the 40k lore knows that the Space Marines have loads of odd stuff in various Chapters. Loads of cool stuf that could have been - like the Mentor Legion.

I would have loved for GK and Dw to be a Elite option for All Imperials like Assassins and Inquisitors but we are stuck with giant Baby Carriers and that sort of crap the same as Wolf Wolf Wolves. It sadly ain't going back.

Deathwatch should gain access to the Vanguard releases simply because it would be really cool and really fun.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.

If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.

Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.

Come on now. The reason people want them is because the models exist. If you want to claim 'no models no rules' over shoulder pads, you've wiped out all custom chapters, a good chunk of the named, canonical ones, all craftworlds, tyrant hive fleets, any non-Cadian/Catachan guard regiments and so on. This is going to a very silly place.

Voss wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I mean this in the nicest way I possibly can, but the company for whatever reason doesn't want you to have them. I have no clue why exactly.

If you're going to make me guess or wildly speculate? It's specifically tied to them having planned something narratively happening with the rumored 8.5E that would expand(or possibly eliminate--but I'm guessing expand) Deathwatch but make it so that the Vanguard(a specific, standing Company /formationwithin the Codex Chapters and even the divergent ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves) aren't "allowed" to be called up.

Simple actually. There's no deathwatch shoulder pad for them. It's all about no models no rules.

Come on now. The reason people want them is because the models exist. If you want to claim 'no models no rules' over shoulder pads, you've wiped out all custom chapters, a good chunk of the named, canonical ones, all craftworlds, tyrant hive fleets, any non-Cadian/Catachan guard regiments and so on. This is going to a very silly place.

Actually GW pretty much did that themselves via giving most of the good special characters to particular sub factions. Also Deathwatch suffers other glaring issues with Wargear and weapons. You can't have Legends Dreads with Autocannons for example.

 BertBert wrote:
Your problem might be that Deathwatch are not an army to begin with.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Grey Knights are not an army.

What the hell are you two talking about? They're both armies.

And as said, above, BA and DAs are Codex Chapters. Perhaps Codex+, with their unique additions, but they're not completely divergent like the Woofs and Templars. They still have 10 companies, still divide them up in roughly the same manner as bog-standard Codex Chapters.

Sterling191 wrote:
How about showing me the "deathwatch shoulder pad" that goes on the Repulsor Executioner...

Kind of a disingenuous argument there, given that no vehicles have shoulder pads, and you know that.

wow, I came home to this?

The shoulder pad issue is not an issue at all, unless we are talking Suppressor only. Reivers are a thing, and they take the DW shoulder pad the same as an Incursor or Infiltrator would. Heck, i just built one last night from an ETB Reiver, Incursor head and arms.

Now, if the intention is to create a Vanguard kill team that included suppressors (which would make sense), the fact that the suppressor does not have it;s own kit yet might be the only reason they are not included. Same with the characters. It certainly has zero relation to lore or fluff, that is ridiculous. GW are probably just waiting for the next release to update them as a full 8.5 codex (maybe hence the WD treatment too). Le's see what releases are mentioned on the 18th as to the future of the marine series (if they reveal anything).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kind of a disingenuous argument there, given that no vehicles have shoulder pads, and you know that.

You are mistaken. The DW upgrade sprue has components for vehicles on it. Components that fit perfectly fine on all the Primaris vehicles I might add.

Sterling191 wrote:
You are mistaken. The DW upgrade sprue has components for vehicles on it. Components that fit perfectly fine on all the Primaris vehicles I might add.

So we've gone from disingenuous to outright moving the goalposts.

You said shoulder pads. Now you're talking about icon/bits.

Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.




Edited for redundant example.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.




Edited for redundant example.

I mean, totally true...but 2000 point games aren't exactly representative of a full army clash on a table, so hardly all that relevant as far as the game goes.

In the context of the game, Deathwatch are currently designed to act as both a soup component (just like every Imperium faction) and a standalone force.

he's not wrong....Deathwatch should practically be a singular kill team in a corvus, but alas, that is not what we have. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in.
This is not a viewpoint of a DW hater either, i have quite a sizeable force (over 60 vets, not counting VVs, bikers or terms).

Then we had Primaris added, with a Fortis kill team. As soon as the vanguard is available in separate kits, I expect we'll get a Vanguard one too.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
Your problem might be that Deathwatch are not an army to begin with.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Grey Knights are not an army.

What the hell are you two talking about? They're both armies.

And as said, above, BA and DAs are Codex Chapters. Perhaps Codex+, with their unique additions, but they're not completely divergent like the Woofs and Templars. They still have 10 companies, still divide them up in roughly the same manner as bog-standard Codex Chapters.

Sterling191 wrote:
How about showing me the "deathwatch shoulder pad" that goes on the Repulsor Executioner...

Kind of a disingenuous argument there, given that no vehicles have shoulder pads, and you know that.

A cheeky response to Deathwatch not being an army.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.




Edited for redundant example.

This is 100% not true. At inception, they were designed to number around chapter strength with a single Watch Commander who would be in charge of the whole organization. In recent years, it's true that the Deathwatch has become more decentralized due to deploying mainly in Kill-Teams, but there are about 5-10 marines in a Kill-Team, 4 Kill-Teams to a Watch Company (plus one Watch Captain), and 5 Companies to a Watch Master, plus about 10 support staff (librarians+dreads+chaplains). That puts a Watch Fortress at around 150ish members on average. According to the Lexicanum, there's about 30 Watch Fortresses, and that's not even including Watch Stations which will have anywhere between a single squad and a couple of squads. So in other words, there are easily 3000 Deathwatch marines out there.

As for the topic of unity, there are a few mentions of multiple Watch Companies working together in the codex. So in other words, they're about as organized as any other chapter when they need to be, they have more manpower, but it's just that they don't often /need/ to work together.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Unpopular opinion - from their lore DW are not an Army. They’re an assortment of kill teams to tackle Xenos issues until it is discovered there is a large enough threat they have to call in a regular chapter. They should get wrapped into a different codex.




Edited for redundant example.

Same is true for all (former) Chaos Legions.

The whole point was that they disbanded, broke apart, fell into in-fighting, split off doing different agendas (e.g. Ahriman's Prodigal Sons, etc..).

Why are people discussing whether DW should be a full faction or not in a PA topic again?

If that new Harlequin character really can't be used by the Harlequin army who currently have zero special characters, I really don't know what to say.

That some messed up gak.

 dan2026 wrote:
If that new Harlequin character really can't be used by the Harlequin army who currently have zero special characters, I really don't know what to say.

That some messed up gak.

I'd say that's pretty par of the course for Aeldari these days.


Hell, Ynnari have characters in the lore that joined them like Jain Zar and Lelith and a former Midnight Sorrow Solitaire , which Ynnari armies are explicitly forbidden to take by the rules in direct contradiction of the fluff on these characters.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
If that new Harlequin character really can't be used by the Harlequin army who currently have zero special characters, I really don't know what to say.

That some messed up gak.

I'd say that's pretty par of the course for Aeldari these days.


Hell, Ynnari have characters in the lore that joined them like Jain Zar and Lelith and a former Midnight Sorrow Solitaire , which Ynnari armies are explicitly forbidden to take by the rules in direct contradiction of the fluff on these characters.

It's weird when the rules do a better job of sticking to lore than the actual stories. GW need to get their writers to actually know what they're writing about.