Conspiracy Theorists - a ‘but why?’ Discussion.

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**chromedog**

IF there were more morrissey fans, there'd be less of them.

**Matt Swain**

Ok this is conspiracy theory related and I jut saw it on my FB feed. I edited it a little because i wanted to share it here.

Imagine being Bill Gates right now.

You spend 30 years of your life and give $50 billion supporting humanitarian causes. You directly save hundreds of thousands of lives in Asia and Africa by providing anti malaria drugs, research and netting to half of 2 continents, you drop infant mortality rates throughout the entire developing world by funding vaccine programs including vaccinating 40,000,000 children for polio, you give 25 Billion to fund HIV research and charities, and convince dozens of others like you to chip in billions more, amongst a plethora of philanthropic endeavors, you also fund free educational platforms like Khan Academy so people can have free access to high quality education. You even fund and build two Covid19 vaccine research centers as we speak...

Then after donating much of your wealth to charity you advocate for doubling taxes on the rich like yourself, and pledge 90% of the remainder to charity in your will.

Arguably doing more to better life on earth for humanity than any other human being to ever live.

You then hop on the internet, only to find millions of scientifically illiterate imbeciles that are using the very computers you pretty much invented in the first place to call you a child murdering arch villian antichrist who created an epidemic, knowing full well you have been warning the world about it for years, all because they watched a YouTube video made by some conspiracist moron with the intellectual comprehension of a

ing potato.

**Disciple of Fate**

So you're saying that the man who couldn't even market Zune products to us would be incapable of orchestrating a pandamic? That sounds far too rational.

**Easy E**

Matt Swain wrote:
Ok this is conspiracy theory related and I jut saw it on my FB feed. I edited it a little because i wanted to share it here.

Imagine being Bill Gates right now.

You spend 30 years of your life and give $50 billion supporting humanitarian causes. You directly save hundreds of thousands of lives in Asia and Africa by providing anti malaria drugs, research and netting to half of 2 continents, you drop infant mortality rates throughout the entire developing world by funding vaccine programs including vaccinating 40,000,000 children for polio, you give 25 Billion to fund HIV research and charities, and convince dozens of others like you to chip in billions more, amongst a plethora of philanthropic endeavors, you also fund free educational platforms like Khan Academy so people can have free access to high quality education. You even fund and build two Covid19 vaccine research centers as we speak...

Then after donating much of your wealth to charity you advocate for doubling taxes on the rich like yourself, and pledge 90% of the remainder to charity in your will.

Arguably doing more to better life on earth for humanity than any other human being to ever live.

You then hop on the internet, only to find millions of scientifically illiterate imbeciles that are using the very computers you pretty much invented in the first place to call you a child murdering arch villian antichrist who created an epidemic, knowing full well you have been warning the world about it for years, all because they watched a YouTube video made by some conspiracist moron with the intellectual comprehension of a ing potato.

You can lead a horse to water, but then the horse is going to turn around and accuse you of being the villain for trying to poison it by drinking.....

**LordofHats**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
So you're saying that the man who couldn't even market Zune products to us would be incapable of orchestrating a pandamic? That sounds far too rational.

My favorite response to this is "You mean the man who makes the operating system all your computers and servers run on needs to invent a pandemic to gain control over your life?" If Bill Gates wanted to play big brother, he could do it anytime he wanted.

**Voss**

Not terribly surprising, sadly.

There's a fair number of people who firmly believe that charity (or giving aid freely) means they're up to something. They firmly believe (mostly because they're taught from childhood) that people innately can't be good. So anyone that seems to be doing weal must be up to something else.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

As my career involves accessing (with their full permission) people’s banking records etc?

Yeah. There’s really no need at all to put a physical chip in anyone in the first world. Like. At all.

Between that data and a very basic understanding of how peeps get from A to B, I can pretty much figure out your movements over a week, especially if you’re sensible and check your online balance at least once a day.

**Turnip Jedi**

Indeed Doc, heck the young folks pretty much use the Twitbooks and Instafaces to broadcast where they are and who else is there all the time, although one of directionally challenged chumettes will post pics asking where she is after going for a walk around the local backroads

**LordofHats**

Turnip Jedi wrote:
Indeed Doc, heck the young folks pretty much use the Twitbooks and Instafaces to broadcast where they are and who else is there all the time

Double indeed.

Have a cell phone? You know that even if you turn the GPS tracking off, the phone is still collecting and storing location data? You literally can't use a phone without pinging a cell tower. Data that is collected and sent back to advertisers via your apps and internet use?

The reality is that most people give away everything about themselves freely. It's just a question of having the time, the money, and sometimes the right soft/hardware to make anything of the information. Honestly, as seedy and insidious as it sounds, its a very mundane thing. It's an unavoidable byproduct of all the conveniences of the modern world. A lot of it directly benefits us in some ways, and in other ways it's an annoyance, and in others it can be abused. Beside the point a bit.

Anyone who thinks Bill Gates (or anyone for that matter) is manufacturing diseases to trick people into vaccinating themselves so that they can plat microchips in you is a fething idiot showcasing nothing but their own ignorance of how computers work.

**endlesswaltz123**

LordofHats wrote:
Turnip Jedi wrote:
Indeed Doc, heck the young folks pretty much use the Twitbooks and Instafaces to broadcast where they are and who else is there all the time

Double indeed.

Have a cell phone? You know that even if you turn the GPS tracking off, the phone is still collecting and storing location data? You literally can't use a phone without pinging a cell tower. Data that is collected and sent back to advertisers via your apps and internet use?

The reality is that most people give away everything about themselves freely. It's just a question of having the time, the money, and sometimes the right soft/hardware to make anything of the information. Honestly, as seedy and insidious as it sounds, its a very mundane thing. It's an unavoidable byproduct of all the conveniences of the modern world. A lot of it directly benefits us in some ways, and in other ways it's an annoyance, and in others it can be abused. Beside the point a bit.

Anyone who thinks Bill Gates (or anyone for that matter) is manufacturing diseases to trick people into vaccinating themselves so that they can plat microchips in you is a fething idiot showcasing nothing but their own ignorance of how computers work.

We have a show on tv in the UK called Hunted, where it's a challenge to evade being captured by a team(s) of ex police/military over a few weeks who have access to all the surveillance information and resources that the Police actually have.... Put it like this, you want to avoid capture, you need to stay off main roads and motorways, totally away from city/town centres and you absolutely cannot utilise anything connected to the internet/satellites, they track you down so quickly, even burner phones, if you use them to contact someone they know, or think you may know, they can track you down just off of that. It's quick work for them as well.

Interesting talking about charities above, I absolutely refuse to donate to charity, or well, big charities. So much money is spent on advertising and 'awareness', the money is just p***ed away, hardly any gets to where it needs to get too, and then I am extremely skeptical of what happens to that money at the other end if money is given to third parties to spend as they see fit...

**Voss**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Interesting talking about charities above, I absolutely refuse to donate to charity, or well, big charities. So much money is spent on advertising and 'awareness', the money is just p***ed away, hardly any gets to where it needs to get too, and then I am extremely skeptical of what happens to that money at the other end if money is given to third parties to spend as they see fit...

Its always worth checking on charities (and non-profits- had a bad experience working for one, not actively illegal just crappy behavior by the boss)

Humble bundle is the simplest example, because the information isn't hard to find- you just have to un-hide it on the payment information section. Unless you specifically change it, the amount that goes to charity is 15%, they keep 35%, and the donor (like GW in the case of humble book bundles) gets 50% (the software percentages might be different, but that's what came up the last time I checked on books). The donor getting some of their money back for their products makes sense to me, but 35% for the book keepers always raises my eyebrows. Sure, they'll need some for staff and credit card fees and etc... But they could cut their costs dramatically just by moving out of San Francisco, one of the most expensive cities in the US. As primarily (if not totally) an internet presence, they don't need to pay for SF real estate and rental costs.

Of course they were bought by IGN, who are in turn owned by J2 Global (along with a bunch of other stuff), and they're a billion-dollar-a-year corp.

**Matt Swain**

Well, one reason bill gets dumped on is he's not a christian, and of course many people believe if you're not a christian you are automatically evil.

**Not Online!!!**

Matt Swain wrote:
Well, one reason bill gets dumped on is he's not a christian, and of course many people believe if you're not a christian you are automatically evil.

Wait what?
I am from one of the most ardently catholic Region in the most ardently catholic Part of my state , wtf is that Logic?
Especially from a Christian view?

**Laughing Man**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Well, one reason bill gets dumped on is he's not a christian, and of course many people believe if you're not a christian you are automatically evil.

Wait what?
I am from one of the most ardently catholic Region in the most ardently catholic Part of my state , wtf is that Logic?
Especially from a Christian view?

As a fellow (former) Catholic, how did you not know that Catholics aren't Real Christians, according to pretty much every other denomination? It was one of the big bludgeons brought out against Kennedy's campaign.

**Not Online!!!**

Laughing Man wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Well, one reason bill gets dumped on is he's not a christian, and of course many people believe if you're not a christian you are automatically evil.

Wait what?
I am from one of the most ardently catholic Region in the most ardently catholic Part of my state , wtf is that Logic?
Especially from a Christian view?

As a fellow (former) Catholic, how did you not know that Catholics aren't Real Christians, according to pretty much every other denomination? It was one of the big bludgeons brought out against Kennedy's campaign.

I feel an urge overcoming me , of picking up the nearest crucifix to Hammer some Sense into some people...

That whole Debate should've been over after 1648 but no. Feths sake man the more "enlightened "we Seem to get as a species the more idiotic we grow seemingly...

**Bran Dawri**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Well, one reason bill gets dumped on is he's not a christian, and of course many people believe if you're not a christian you are automatically evil.

Wait what?
I am from one of the most ardently catholic Region in the most ardently catholic Part of my state , wtf is that Logic?
Especially from a Christian view?

I've been watching a lot of atheist vs christian debates of late - bored and in Africa - , and I think the logic goes something like this:
1) You can only have an objective morality through divine commandments
2) Atheists don't believe in a god, and therefore cannot have an objective morality
3) Subjective morality = nihilism
4) therefore atheists are evil.

It's espoused in its more direct form more by the stricter protestant sects/proponents like Ken Ham and Dennis Prager I think, but more moderate (well, relatively) people like Jordan Peterson spout it as well.
The logic itself is flawed on nearly every level that I can think of, but that's the gist of it.

Edit: damn my thick pudgy fingers.

**Turnip Jedi**

Matt Swain wrote:
Well, one reason bill gets dumped on is he's not a christian, and of course many people believe if you're not a christian you are automatically evil.

I thought it was more to do with the niggles of various MS products creating an endless fog of low grade evil QED he's working for the bad place

**insaniak**

Bran Dawri wrote:

I've been watching a lot of atheist vs christian debates of late - bored and in Africa - , and I think the logic goes something like this:
1) You can only have an objective morality through divine commandments
2) Atheists don't believe in a god, and therefore cannot have an objective morality
3) Subjective morality = nihilism
4) therefore atheists are evil..

Without sidetracking this into actual religious discussion, the counter to this is that humans as a society are herd creatures, and being considerate of- and/or helping others is good for the overall wellbeing of the herd as a whole. Instant scientific basis for morality, right there.

LordofHats wrote:
Anyone who thinks Bill Gates (or anyone for that matter) is manufacturing diseases to trick people into vaccinating themselves so that they can plat microchips in you is a fething idiot showcasing nothing but their own ignorance of how computers work.

To be fair, the microchip was only half of it. The other half of the Gates conspiracy theory was that the vaccine would lay the groundwork to kill off a giant chunk of the world's population, based on Gates having previously espoused population control.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Indeed, we are entering very, very thin mod ice.

I’ll draw an OP line under this train of thought with my take it on it as an atheist, commenting on Religious Puritanism,

I don’t do thing described as Sins/Evil in various religious texts because I really, really wouldn’t like them to happen to me or mine.

Morality is not absolute, even within a given umbrella religion.

As an atheist, I do ‘The Right Thing’ because that’s where my moral compass points, and not from fear of some supernatural punishment down the line.

Right. Line drawn within the thread. If you’re interested in discussing the issues raised, hit me up in PMs. I’m broad minded, and love a good mutually respectful discussion.

**Laughing Man**

Bran Dawri wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Matt Swain wrote:
Well, one reason bill gets dumped on is he's not a christian, and of course many people believe if you're not a christian you are automatically evil.

Wait what?
I am from one of the most ardently catholic Region in the most ardently catholic Part of my state , wtf is that Logic?
Especially from a Christian view?

I've been watching a lot of atheist vs christian debates of late - bored and in Africa - , and I think the logic goes something like this:
1) You can only have an objective morality through divine commandments
2) Atheists don't believe in a god, and therefore cannot have an objective morality
3) Subjective morality = nihilism
4) therefore atheists are evil.

It's espoused in its more direct form more by the stricter protestant sects/proponents like Ken Ham and Dennis Prager I think, but more moderate (well, relatively) people like Jordan Peterson spout it as well.
The logic itself is flawed on nearly every level that I can think of, but that's the gist of it.

Edit: damn my thick pudgy fingers.

Bill Gates is a Catholic, not an atheist.

**Vulcan**

The word you're looking for is 'empathy'. The ability to understand that The Other is a person too, and they don't like being treated poorly any more than you do.

And no, it doesn't require any sort of divine belief to acquire.

**RiTides**

Guys, we've tiptoed along the line of religious discussion long enough here - we all know it's not allowed on Dakka, so let's move on from that line of discussion, please.

**Bran Dawri**

Agreed. I merely wanted to answer the qiestion and move on which is why I only repeated the reasoning without putting forth my own views on the matter. Apologies for derailing the thread.

**AegisGrimm**

The best of the Gates conspiracy claims is that he secretly but forcibly (by hiding it in another drug) sterilized half a million African women about ten years ago. All part of his population control agenda.

Seems like someone would have leaked that to the news, and there probably would have been lots of coverage and charges.

Birth Rates dropping due to successful vaccinations in lower developing countries is a real thing with many studies. It generally means people don't feel like they have to gamble by having enough kids so that at least some survive to take care of their parents when they are elderly.

**Bran Dawri**

Not to mention providing condoms so people don't get pregnant by accident.

**Vulcan**

Bran Dawri wrote:
Not to mention providing condoms so people don't get pregnant by accident.

While condoms are way better than nothing at all, an 18% fertility rate is far from what I'd call reliable birth control

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

So, extending CTs to include Cryptozoology?

Here’s a link shared out of intellectual interest. In that I don’t believe the claims, but the article itself is very interesting reading, and I wonder what others might make of it.

TL/DR? Cryptozoological article, exploring the concept of high altitude life forms.

I’ve read it before in Fortean Times, and the writer isn’t particularly tinfoil.

http://thelivingsky.com/the-sky-is-alive/

**ScarletRose**

I know actual scientists had been speculating about atmospheric life on Venus (IIRC) because it does have a habitable temperature zone.

But on Earth? That seems less likely.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Core argument is that we see lifeforms of various complexities in all sorts of environments, barring the higher atmosphere.

As a concept is an interesting one.

**Necro**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

So this came up in the Coronavirus thread and made for interesting exchanges. To prevent derailing, started this thread.

What is it I’m looking to discuss? Well, not so much a specific a conspiracy theory. And this isn’t an effort to ‘name and shame’ or point and laugh at specific individuals. Rather, I want to discuss the far more interesting question of why people can come to believe in even the most insane of conspiracy theories. For example, Flat Earth. We know beyond the shadow of any doubt at all that’s utter bobbins. The earth is round, we’ve been to space, and have the pictures to prove it.

Yet, not all conspiracy theories are completely mental - and some even turn out to have more than just a grain of truth, but to have been absolutely on the money. And that’s what makes them an interesting topic of discussion in my book.

Example? Well, the readily findable examples may be a bit too political to be kicking off with. So I’ll trust you to Google them yourself rather than me start the thread off on the wrong foot and hamstring the discussion. But they do exist, 100%.

Turns out, there are those with a recognised, psychological predilection to believe in conspiracy theories. In essence, it causes an inherent distrust of any research and opinion other than one’s own. And in some cases, an absolute unshakeable faith that You Are Right, regardless of any actual knowledge on a given subject. Their opinion is the Be All And End All.

And for the avoidance of rank hypocrisy on my behalf - this is just my own, loose understanding that has been garnered having had a casual interest. I am perfectly happy to be educated, and who knows depending on need, re-educated about this!

Now to get into more interesting things. For many (not all) conspiracy theories, a common strand is Selective Evidence. The conspiracy theorist discounts any and all evidence against their take. The reasons given will vary - it’s a lie, its a shill, the person questioning them is working for The Man etc.

Let’s take a common bit of long debunked tripe. Jet Fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel. Ultimately, correct. But it’s application ignores entirely that it need only burn hot enough to damage structural integrity. And that a building collapsing in any given way will depend up its method of construction. It also completely discounts any prior physical damage to the structure.

They also often struggle to provide a solid, rational answer to ‘yeah.....but why?’. Example here? Those that believe Kurt Cobain was murdered. Sure, the evidence there far from rules it out. The ‘yeah, but why?’ element in this case is that it implies a cover up. What’s the point? If as some would have you believe Courtney Love murdered him, what’s the reason for Police protecting her? What’s the motivation to get her off Scot Free? Compare to Conspiracies proven true - those typically had a clear advantage to be had from them.

They also tend to be implausible in execution. Some of the more bizarre ones would require a huge number of people to be complicit, and seemingly utterly without qualms or morals. Even more so when it’s a widely accepted fact that most/all Governments have shown absolutely nowhere near the competence required to pull such things off.

So that’s my opener. Before I hit submit, please remember this is a discussion, and intended to be friendly and open minded. If you feel things getting a bit heated, please give yourself a breather before your next post.

So to answer your question: The reason there is conspiracy theories is due to the fact that people lie and go to extraordinary lengths to cover it up. Some are Myth, some are partially true and some are true with out evidence to support it.

The world is guided by people with influence to meet their preferred narrative. It has always been this way and will always be this way. Some people rage against the machine is all....