Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43kv4q/microsoft-human-contractors-listened-to-xbox-owners-homes-kinect-cortana

https://time.com/5568815/amazon-workers-listen-to-alexa/

Yeah, at this point the data gathering itself isn't even a conspiracy theory- the question is just how deep does it go. Personally I won't own one because of the chance of it overhearing account information or personal data when you're talking on the phone. I can just imagine that 15 dollar an hour employee hearing everything they need to access my bank account and balancing the risk of getting fired with stealing my identity.

Always on microphones are not something I want in my home.

Why
isn't total corporate controll superior to total control through world empire...


starts whisteling whilest pointing to the east india traiding company...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also reddit just got purged.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
I am guessing its been talked about already but.....

Google/FB/et al. are listening to our conversations when our phone is nearby.

Who *hasn't * had that creepy asf experience of talking about something and then BOOM its there as an ad.

Or one time, my girlfriend and I were at an Italian restaurant.

I ordered some chicken with capers.

We were talking about what they were.

I went to Google and typed "what are" and before I even typed capers.....it filled it in for me.

Seriously?! You tipped your hand there Google!

Constant use of the microphone is unlikely due to the battery drain. What's more likely is that Google simply used your phone's location and looked up what other people have searched for in the same place. If you wonder what capers actually are, chances are that others have as well.


So the big info companies aren't listening to you constantly. They just always track where your phone goes, how long it stays there, what you use it for and reference this with all other activities they can trace your name to (use of credit cards or similar). Then they sell this data to advertising companies so they can sell "perfect" ads to other companies.

Companies are so good at gathering information on people that grocery stores have a good estimate of when people are going to have children so they start targeting thse people with special offers for diapers and such.

And yet its not perfect. It amuses me when I have to get a gift for someone online and I notice ads suddenly get really keen to sell me random stuff based on something I got for someone else. Or those "one off" purchases that are nothing typical nor normal but again get picked up.


Google though I'm starting to get annoyed with. Though more because their code seems to be really maximising the most popular rather than most recent articles way more than it ever used too.

A lot of it is like Apple interfaces and such - if you "fit" the mould much of the stuff seems scary accurate because its does things as you want almost before you want them. Part of that is not just the machine reading you, but also you being "trained" by the machine/system. OF course if you fit the mould they are working with you don't realise this "training" aspect because its mostly fitting in with how you are.


If you're a bit outside of it you start to see some of the cracks because the system targets you with the wrong things. Of course another aspect is selective remembering - if you notice things being accurate you're more likely to keep seeing and remembering them whilst overlooking the inaccurate; the opposite is also true.

In that its similar to "cold reading" that mediums and the like will use. They'll get loads of bits wrong or hazy, however those they puzzle out to get right are what people remember.

 Overread wrote:
And yet its not perfect. It amuses me when I have to get a gift for someone online and I notice ads suddenly get really keen to sell me random stuff based on something I got for someone else. Or those "one off" purchases that are nothing typical nor normal but again get picked up.


Google though I'm starting to get annoyed with. Though more because their code seems to be really maximising the most popular rather than most recent articles way more than it ever used too.

A lot of it is like Apple interfaces and such - if you "fit" the mould much of the stuff seems scary accurate because its does things as you want almost before you want them. Part of that is not just the machine reading you, but also you being "trained" by the machine/system. OF course if you fit the mould they are working with you don't realise this "training" aspect because its mostly fitting in with how you are.


If you're a bit outside of it you start to see some of the cracks because the system targets you with the wrong things. Of course another aspect is selective remembering - if you notice things being accurate you're more likely to keep seeing and remembering them whilst overlooking the inaccurate; the opposite is also true.

In that its similar to "cold reading" that mediums and the like will use. They'll get loads of bits wrong or hazy, however those they puzzle out to get right are what people remember.

Yeah, for all the "they know everything!" rhetoric some of these systems are truly dumb. I still can't believe Amazon doesn't have a simple system for ignoring stuff you buy from someone's wish list, for example. I bought one kid's book for my nephew a year or so ago, form a wish list, and Amazon spent the next 6 months bombarding me with suggestions for what a 4-year old might read when I don't have any kids of my own. Similarly, I got adverts for new houses for over a year after I'd bought one and moved in. That kind of puts a nail in the coffin for any theory about Big Data tracking our every move.

The confirmation bias point is spot on. I suspect if you kept track of all the ads you were served you'd realise the hit-rate is pretty poor overall. I suspect my YouTube watching habits must have triggered something in their algorithm to make them think I'm a prime target for online gambling, for example, which is odd because I have literally never visited a gambling site in my life, never mind used one.

you recently purchased a blu-ray player so might like this powerdrill...

yep Skynet still a bit down the road

Of course at the same time as we are getting data mined to spot shopping patterns, the advertising system has to factor in wild-cards because otherwise each individual would be getting ads on an ever more niche set of criteria on what you shop for online. Plus firms pay for exposure through ads, so something like gambling likely gets a lot more hits because they pay a lot more to get seen. Even if you don't flag as a gambler you'll get the ads to tempt you.

I think the whole data pooling and mining is both scary and not scary. I think the greater issue is the potential for it to become very big data sets through trading and individual user tracking systems. Ego the issue isn't Amazon suggesting things based on what you've bought from Amazon before; its when your Amazon is added to your ebay purchase history and your google search history then all of that added to your highstreet shopping patterns. Then data pooled based on address so that your data is combined with those at the identical address to yourself.

Ergo one data set on its own used by one outlet isn't a big issue for most people; its when data is traded, combined and processed with unique identifiers to build a very complete profile of you.

Rosebuddy wrote:


Constant use of the microphone is unlikely due to the battery drain. What's more likely is that Google simply used your phone's location and looked up what other people have searched for in the same place. If you wonder what capers actually are, chances are that others have as well.


So the big info companies aren't listening to you constantly. They just always track where your phone goes, how long it stays there, what you use it for and reference this with all other activities they can trace your name to (use of credit cards or similar). Then they sell this data to advertising companies so they can sell "perfect" ads to other companies.

I **rarely** have my location/gps turned on....like...only if I am traveling somewhere unfamiliar.

 TheMeanDM wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:


Constant use of the microphone is unlikely due to the battery drain. What's more likely is that Google simply used your phone's location and looked up what other people have searched for in the same place. If you wonder what capers actually are, chances are that others have as well.


So the big info companies aren't listening to you constantly. They just always track where your phone goes, how long it stays there, what you use it for and reference this with all other activities they can trace your name to (use of credit cards or similar). Then they sell this data to advertising companies so they can sell "perfect" ads to other companies.

I **rarely** have my location/gps turned on....like...only if I am traveling somewhere unfamiliar.

I have a Google Pixel 4, and even with ALL of my GPS items turned off I still get idiotic "Google knows what you did" messages. . . Like, I went to Best Buy recently to physically see a TV I was interested in person (I was following all social distancing protocols, before ya ask), and by the time I got to my truck, there was a notification in my system saying "How was your visit to Best Buy?" Google is a bit insidious in that not only do they stalk your movements by asking for reviews of places, they try and "get" people by having an RPG scaled level system to the reviews . . . I'm apparently 5 reviews away from whatever the next level is, but I never leave reviews through my phone, And its been years since I last left any kind of online review of a business.

 TheMeanDM wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:


Constant use of the microphone is unlikely due to the battery drain. What's more likely is that Google simply used your phone's location and looked up what other people have searched for in the same place. If you wonder what capers actually are, chances are that others have as well.


So the big info companies aren't listening to you constantly. They just always track where your phone goes, how long it stays there, what you use it for and reference this with all other activities they can trace your name to (use of credit cards or similar). Then they sell this data to advertising companies so they can sell "perfect" ads to other companies.

I **rarely** have my location/gps turned on....like...only if I am traveling somewhere unfamiliar.

Turns out they can still track you via cell towers and wifi. It's not as accurate (Google Rewards is convinced that I'm going to the storage units by my office rather than the office, and won't stop asking about them), but with big box stores you've got enough empty space around that they can figure it out pretty easily still.

Turning GPS tracking off really doesn't do anything.

The reality is that the world is so connected now that you can't avoid the grid unless you willfully set out to fall off of it. Which lets face it, is not a practical solution for the bulk of the population.

People should stop worrying about "can I be tracked" and be more worried about "what can the people tracking me do with that information legally?" Right now, it's not that much. But then, no one is running massive metadata to decide who to provide health insurance too, who is likely to be a reliable employee, and who is likely to commit what crimes.

People need to be far less concerned with the insidious shadow government controlling their lives and far more concerned with the pragmatic risk-averse mega-corporations marketing data based solutions to problems in ways that could potentially lead to unintended and rampant systematic discrimination based on nothing but what behaviors you tend to fall into.

Once the debate becomes "well yeah it sucks for you, but 85% of people who shop on craigslist are late for work by 15 minutes 35% of the time and 5% of those people are also rapists and pedophiles so you can't expect the company to just take a risk that you as a craigslist shopper will always show up to work late and maybe be a rapist/pedophile" good fething luck trying to have anything approaching a reasoned discussion (EDIT: and before anyone says it, yes this is already happening in China which has increasingly embraced 'big data' as a means of controlling population behaviors). We can't even get people to recognize systematic discrimination over skin color. It'll only get dumber if it expands to include mundane behaviors.

Wargamers are known to have poorer than average washing habits - often spend extended time alone with their hobby and research their hobby using the internet - the same pattern of behaviour that terrorists and cimrinal hit-men also display. As a result wargamers might be terrorists - don't employ any wargamers


In other news people who drive red cars - totally best employees promote them and give them a company car. Note red is currently the top selling car colour.

 Overread wrote:
Wargamers are known to have poorer than average washing habits - often spend extended time alone with their hobby and research their hobby using the internet - the same pattern of behaviour that terrorists and cimrinal hit-men also display. As a result wargamers might be terrorists - don't employ any wargamers

Even better; Wargamers are an insular mostly male hobby with lots of intersection to the incel sub-culture, a sub-culture increasingly connected to terrorist behaviors and criminality, never mind the rampant sexism, misanthropy, and self-pity that makes for unstable personalities. It doesn't even have to become a hard line of 'don't hire X'. It can be as simple as background checks become data based and listing risk factor (which background checks generally already do, the field is just trapped in the 70s and doesn't make use of many technological advances) and people making judgement calls based on the risk factors.

They probably won't of course, this is a bit reactionary about something that's probably a long shot, but this is an example of why I'm baffled by people's priorities. They'd rather think Bill Gates wants to microchip them in some holdover of CIA conspiracy theories from decades ago than feel any concern about things that are already advancing. Recently a lot of big tech pulled out of the facial recognition game and while they gave nice and fluffy reasons for that numbers tell us the reason IBM and the rest are yanking the plug is because it's not a profitable business. Making facial recognition work right now is too expensive and it's too spotty. Data science is the next field for trying to remotely identify people and is likely to be far more profitable and far harder to get people to feel any concern about.

We already felt some of this with companies wanting access to peoples facebook accounts. Not just "do you have a facebook" but straight up "your boss requires you to friend them" etc... I believe it got clamped down on legally because outside of things like national security, most companies do not need to see your facebook.


Sadly with many things like this because those in power are often older there's often a huge generational gap going on. So the world might push on, but those in the key positions are still decades behind in attitude. This is especially true of technology. Heck lets not forget the world has changed a lot. In my lifetime alone we went from no internet through to a point now where living without it is actually a significant disadvantage and where it could very well become a basic right like access to clean water - at least within developed nations.

Even right now if you try and live without it you can hit some barriers - many jobs don't accept hand/paper copy applications; many places you can't easily contact with phone or mail (that's if you can even find such details); basic information on most subjects assumes that you can access the internet for "further details". Sure you can still live without it, but as time passes it becomes more and more important.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Wargamers are known to have poorer than average washing habits - often spend extended time alone with their hobby and research their hobby using the internet - the same pattern of behaviour that terrorists and cimrinal hit-men also display. As a result wargamers might be terrorists - don't employ any wargamers

Even better; Wargamers are an insular mostly male hobby with lots of intersection to the incel sub-culture, a sub-culture increasingly connected to terrorist behaviors and criminality, never mind the rampant sexism, misanthropy, and self-pity that makes for unstable personalities. It doesn't even have to become a hard line of 'don't hire X'. It can be as simple as background checks become data based and listing risk factor (which background checks generally already do, the field is just trapped in the 70s and doesn't make use of many technological advances) and people making judgement calls based on the risk factors.

They probably won't of course, this is a bit reactionary about something that's probably a long shot, but this is an example of why I'm baffled by people's priorities. They'd rather think Bill Gates wants to microchip them in some holdover of CIA conspiracy theories from decades ago than feel any concern about things that are already advancing. Recently a lot of big tech pulled out of the facial recognition game and while they gave nice and fluffy reasons for that numbers tell us the reason IBM and the rest are yanking the plug is because it's not a profitable business. Making facial recognition work right now is too expensive and it's too spotty. Data science is the next field for trying to remotely identify people and is likely to be far more profitable and far harder to get people to feel any concern about.

Yikes, but pretty much, cameras be manipulated, or have just a really really bad position at the wrong time, but , datapoints when device xyz enters a WLAN or any other network, where you payed with your cards, etc, is WAAAAYY more reliable and easier to track.



@overread, they might be older just way to slow, in regards to digital entertainment f.e. they finally adressed Lootboxes in the house of lords.

To be fair lootboxes were fine then big firms went totally nuts with them - heck EA put a straight up real money driven casino into a basketball game. That was just begging for legislation to come smack them down at least to force them to comply with formal gambling restrictions and laws. Probably even more because those games were aimed at those considered "underage" for gambling.



But now I think we've got a bit distracted from tinfoil hats and lizard people .

 Overread wrote:
To be fair lootboxes were fine then big firms went totally nuts with them - heck EA put a straight up real money driven casino into a basketball game. That was just begging for legislation to come smack them down at least to force them to comply with formal gambling restrictions and laws. Probably even more because those games were aimed at those considered "underage" for gambling.



But now I think we've got a bit distracted from tinfoil hats and lizard people .

was just a counterpoint against the generational gap, prolly more grey area then anything and the whole lootbox thing, i mean, let's be honest, EA was by far not the worst offender when acti-bliz literally startet patenting MM systems and psycholgues and psychiaters got involved.


I do wonder though if we will see any conspiracy theories go out from the redit purge considering some of the purged subredits were quite, erm , invested in some?

well lizards in shiny hats are distracting especially as everyone else pretends they cant see them

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
well lizards in shiny hats are distracting especially as everyone else pretends they cant see them

Actuallly.
How many conspiracy theories do you rekon have been part of smokes and mirrors by let's say governments?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
well lizards in shiny hats are distracting especially as everyone else pretends they cant see them

Actuallly.
How many conspiracy theories do you rekon have been part of smokes and mirrors by let's say governments?

Who knows. I think some land on them by accident like Area 51.

most of the time I dismiss them just for the logistics of stopping people acting like people, especially in the interweb era

i meant more how many are created by the governments as diversions / social experiments?

Not Online!!! wrote:
i meant more how many are created by the governments as diversions / social experiments?

maybe a few but I suspect most of it comes from internet echo chambers populated by insomiancs, the un-medicated and neuro-diverse (not sure thats the correct polite term and certainly not belittling those who may be prone to buying into the nonsence)

Not Online!!! wrote:
i meant more how many are created by the governments as diversions / social experiments?

Well, that's just the thing though right? How could one know the answer to that question? And that forms, essentially, the crux of the problem.

The fact is, there seems to be evidence it has happened at least once, which then makes it sort of an open-ended question as to the plausibility that it might be happening (almost) any number of other times. Which is why, from a deontological sort of perspective, any lie is a very bad idea. If there is no duty to "truth" (whatever that actually is) well, then all sorts of utilitarian sort of cases could be made for lies and the like.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
well lizards in shiny hats are distracting especially as everyone else pretends they cant see them

Actuallly.
How many conspiracy theories do you rekon have been part of smokes and mirrors by let's say governments?

I have always wondered if the folks who go on and on about "the New World Order" and all the bad things that will supposedly happen are part of (or at least used by) the supposed NWO.

Because they tend to be people who are so fething irritating that I wish there really were UN black helicopters to take them away.

 H wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
i meant more how many are created by the governments as diversions / social experiments?

Well, that's just the thing though right? How could one know the answer to that question? And that forms, essentially, the crux of the problem.

The fact is, there seems to be evidence it has happened at least once, which then makes it sort of an open-ended question as to the plausibility that it might be happening (almost) any number of other times. Which is why, from a deontological sort of perspective, any lie is a very bad idea. If there is no duty to "truth" (whatever that actually is) well, then all sorts of utilitarian sort of cases could be made for lies and the like.

See here 's the thing, during the initial wave of Corina over here the government was basically Like " no mass don't really work" yet in Hospitals etc masks became a rarity enforced by government. Masks were a rarity.

Just These Sweets occaisonal lies in Order to help the greater good in this case allowing for supply to go to the hotspots aka hospitals.

Now we get as of monday Mask enforced in public transportation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
well lizards in shiny hats are distracting especially as everyone else pretends they cant see them

Actuallly.
How many conspiracy theories do you rekon have been part of smokes and mirrors by let's say governments?

I have always wondered if the folks who go on and on about "the New World Order" and all the bad things that will supposedly happen are part of (or at least used by) the supposed NWO.

Because they tend to be people who are so fething irritating that I wish there really were UN black helicopters to take them away.

Now now , i wouldn't wish my worst neighbours to be taken away by a tyranical governement. That just ain't right and said neighbours is a

Things like this are one of the many reasons I'm glad I still rock a dumb-phone. (well that, they cost me all of $10 each for a 4 pack, they last several years each, the battery life is ridiculously long, and they still fit in my pocket).

That being said, I got my wife a nice laptop for Christmas and set it up using my info so she could use it immediately after opening it. We were talking about a vacation (pre corona times). She NEVER searched for where we were going, and I had yet to look anything up on my desktop. The next thing I know I'm getting ads for hotels near Joplin, Missouri. This isn't even close to a major Tourist destination, so it HAS to be that new laptop.

Not Online!!! wrote:
See here 's the thing, during the initial wave of Corina over here the government was basically Like " no mass don't really work" yet in Hospitals etc masks became a rarity enforced by government. Masks were a rarity.

Just These Sweets occaisonal lies in Order to help the greater good in this case allowing for supply to go to the hotspots aka hospitals.

Now we get as of monday Mask enforced in public transportation.

Well, that was likely a part of the whole calculation, yeah.

Part of it though, I think personally, was also just a framing problem. In other words, people were looking at "mask ineffectiveness" from the standpoint of the wearer getting it, say from it being in the air already. In this sense, the mask is not very effective. However, re-framed the other way, in keeping a carrier from putting the droplets out into the air, it is more so effective. So, that essential re-framing does chance the manner of considering something justifiable or not.

But point taken, which is why I am not an Absolute Deontologist, of course. Because there may well be times where the truth could cause a panic. So, yeah, notions practicality might put one in a bad place, only able to look at either bad or worse choices.

Now this is a harmless one but just as this is a harmless one who is to say that such Sweets little lies and wrong perceptions/framings weren't conveniently used when uncomfortable deals showed up etc?

 LordofHats wrote:


People need to be far less concerned with the insidious shadow government controlling their lives

Spoken like a member of the shadow government! You've outsed yourself and your shadowy shenanigans!

Release the DAKKA!