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Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Ok so now we are getting somewhere...

You don't/didn;t want a Marine army you wanted a Deathwatch Army - a subspecies if you will and given that they are all storied veterans they are likely to have armour to match.

Ok so the Primaris don't currently provide many of the appropriate models for that sort iof army - just like in the olden days if you wanted to make DW or similar (or most Chapters) you had to add stuff to Tac Marines and the like. Now there is a whole massive range of them which is super cool.

However as I think you know the Primaris range is not designed for that its designed as a basic building block of a generic marine army as the old Tac, Dev and Assault marines were and are.

Sure the basic Primaris are not going to provide you with the highly ornate Marines you want but neither would the old Tacs, Devs and Assaults - which is why you didnlt buy them presumably and wnet for the ones that had been made especially for DW - same as there is now a huge range of add ons for both Pre-Primaris and Prmaris.

Compare the options you have with any other faction......any upgrade packs at all for any of them?




I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





the_scotsman wrote:Because the primary reason I added the sternguard kit was actually to get storm bolters and storm shields, lol. That's a separate problem with GW not being terribly good at balancing their game.
The Sternguard kit has no storm shields.

Look dawg, I know you and morden are after a sweet internet dunk "Checkmate Atheists" "Illogal SJW DESTOYED WITH FACTS AND REASON" moment, but this is a subjective opinion and I have never presented it as anything but a subjective opinion.
That's fair, but don't criticise the Primaris for "needing other kits to have gothic bits" when the regular kits don't even have it.
Consistency.
If I got interested in space marines as a mobile lightning strike type force with units equipped with special weapons, I can't do that with primaris (especially if I liked Drop Pods, lol). Primaris marines are pretty much a static gunline army.
So, just to confirm (for the sake of consistency) do you think that non-mobile Space Marines and 30k Astartes are not Space Marines? Or, do you acknowledge that they're Space Marines, but just not the kind you like?

If I got interested in space marines for a gothic aesthetic, and I dislike a COD Modern Warfare tactical aesthetic, I'll need to custom-build my primaris with third party bits or bits from another kit.
Yes, and you'd have to do the same for your Tacticals as well, who also lack a lot of "gothic aesthetic". (Also, in what way are Intercessors "CoD Modern Warfare tactical aesthetic? They look nothing like CoD, save for having a longer bolter?)
If I got interested in space marines because I like making each model a unique individual, I can't do that with Primaris marines.
Tactical Marines are only slightly more varied (as in, they get one more type of helmet, and maybe one different chestplate or legs).
If I got interested in space marines as a mixed melee/shooting force with some dedicated shooting and some dedicated melee units, I can't do that with primaris marines.
So, if/when Primaris do get a dedicated melee unit, you won't have problems with them?
Much as I love those sculpts (and I do, I own them!), they have plenty of "tacticool" gubbinz on them, and aren't exactly covered in robes and tabards. The Black Shield in the back there is the exception, not the norm.

And, again, all the complaints you have with Primaris needing to buy Sternguard to be more ornate, Tactical Marines have the same. Aesthetic is not an exclusively Primaris problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Sure the basic Primaris are not going to provide you with the highly ornate Marines you want but neither would the old Tacs, Devs and Assaults - which is why you didnlt buy them presumably and wnet for the ones that had been made especially for DW - same as there is now a huge range of add ons for both Pre-Primaris and Prmaris.
Exactly. It wasn't ONLY Primaris who have less ornate sculpts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/13 17:58:19



They/them

 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
By that same logic, all the plain armoured Marines, just because it's not part of every model, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can't say "well not all Space Marines have gothic armour BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE IT STILL EXISTS", when the same argument can be used to support blank armour.

"By that same logic"

I see no logic to what you have said, just attempts to change the subject and make it look like you have some point by insulting everyone until they no longer care to talk to you.


Changing the subject? I've been consistently asking questions that no-one has answered, and instead move the goalposts. Don't accuse people of changing the topic when you won't answer questions I've consistently been putting in your court.
You haven't been putting any balls in any courts, you've been taking a series of absurd positions that are increasingly specific to the point of having nothing to do with the original topic.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Gothic armor has been part of the brand since the earliest days of 40k. This is not an argument, this is a fact.
I'm not denying that. But tell me what's gothic about the ETB old Marines I've been posting.
Flat, curved armour. No ornamentation. The same complaints levelled at Primaris Marines. Care to explain why?
Sure. More than one style of armor existed, more than one illustrator's vision of what it looks like was used by GW. One does not exclude the other.

Everyone has said that. You are the one saying the fact there are variants means classic gothic armor has never been part of the aestheic, that it refers to lots of different things, and a bunch of other garbage.

It's incredibly simple for most people to grasp. You're deliberately not getting the point.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All I'm asking for is a degree of consistency. Show me why flat, easy build, unadorned old Marines are widely accepted, but Primaris Marines, who have plenty of their own ornamentation and "gothic" art aren't.
No thank you, and don't tell me what to do.

Some people do not like Primaris. It's a matter of taste and it seems that's what all your questions are getting at. You don't like that some people don't like the way Primaris look and you're trying to make a case why that's stupid.

Primaris look terrible in comparison with older editions. Screw them and the stupid stuff GW is doing with the rules to accommodate them. They are ruining the game and the aesthetic, at my FLGS no one plays against PEQ and their OP lists, we make them play each other in a corner and keep them out of tournaments.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Everything else you said is garbage. Stop wasting everyone's time.
Answer my questions first. Shouldn't be hard.

That's the problem. Your questions have been answered repeatedly, you just keep coming back with increased insipidity.

No one is going to give you an answer that satisfies you, this is like the kid who keeps asking but why?

And there you go again telling people what to do. This isn't a conversation, it's a tantrum.

   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

This isn't a conversation, it's a tantrum.


yeah ok, no ranting going on in your reply at....

don't tell me what to do.

Screw them and the stupid stuff GW is doing with the rules to accommodate them. They are ruining the game and the aesthetic,




I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 techsoldaten wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
By that same logic, all the plain armoured Marines, just because it's not part of every model, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can't say "well not all Space Marines have gothic armour BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE IT STILL EXISTS", when the same argument can be used to support blank armour.

"By that same logic"

I see no logic to what you have said, just attempts to change the subject and make it look like you have some point by insulting everyone until they no longer care to talk to you.


Changing the subject? I've been consistently asking questions that no-one has answered, and instead move the goalposts. Don't accuse people of changing the topic when you won't answer questions I've consistently been putting in your court.
You haven't been putting any balls in any courts, you've been taking a series of absurd positions that are increasingly specific to the point of having nothing to do with the original topic.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Gothic armor has been part of the brand since the earliest days of 40k. This is not an argument, this is a fact.
I'm not denying that. But tell me what's gothic about the ETB old Marines I've been posting.
Flat, curved armour. No ornamentation. The same complaints levelled at Primaris Marines. Care to explain why?
Sure. More than one style of armor existed, more than one illustrator's vision of what it looks like was used by GW. One does not exclude the other.

Everyone has said that. You are the one saying the fact there are variants means classic gothic armor has never been part of the aestheic, that it refers to lots of different things, and a bunch of other garbage.

It's incredibly simple for most people to grasp. You're deliberately not getting the point.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All I'm asking for is a degree of consistency. Show me why flat, easy build, unadorned old Marines are widely accepted, but Primaris Marines, who have plenty of their own ornamentation and "gothic" art aren't.
No thank you, and don't tell me what to do.

Some people do not like Primaris. It's a matter of taste and it seems that's what all your questions are getting at. You don't like that some people don't like the way Primaris look and you're trying to make a case why that's stupid.

Primaris look terrible in comparison with older editions. Screw them and the stupid stuff GW is doing with the rules to accommodate them. They are ruining the game and the aesthetic, at my FLGS no one plays against PEQ and their OP lists, we make them play each other in a corner and keep them out of tournaments.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Everything else you said is garbage. Stop wasting everyone's time.
Answer my questions first. Shouldn't be hard.

That's the problem. Your questions have been answered repeatedly, you just keep coming back with increased insipidity.

No one is going to give you an answer that satisfies you, this is like the kid who keeps asking but why?

And there you go again telling people what to do. This isn't a conversation, it's a tantrum.

LOOOOOOOOL PRIMARIS ARE BROKEN? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh wait you're serious. Primaris aren't broken kid, the Supplements released are.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Mr Morden wrote:
Ok so now we are getting somewhere...

You don't/didn;t want a Marine army you wanted a Deathwatch Army - a subspecies if you will and given that they are all storied veterans they are likely to have armour to match.

Ok so the Primaris don't currently provide many of the appropriate models for that sort iof army - just like in the olden days if you wanted to make DW or similar (or most Chapters) you had to add stuff to Tac Marines and the like. Now there is a whole massive range of them which is super cool.

However as I think you know the Primaris range is not designed for that its designed as a basic building block of a generic marine army as the old Tac, Dev and Assault marines were and are.

Sure the basic Primaris are not going to provide you with the highly ornate Marines you want but neither would the old Tacs, Devs and Assaults - which is why you didnlt buy them presumably and wnet for the ones that had been made especially for DW - same as there is now a huge range of add ons for both Pre-Primaris and Prmaris.

Compare the options you have with any other faction......any upgrade packs at all for any of them?





Well, not exactly. Deathwatch don't have a huge range, they have one character, one troop kit, and one flyer. Beyond that, they use the regular marine stuff, like the Vanguard Veterans I got for them, which fit pretty well with the deathwatch vets. I also got a box of regular assault marines which with their chainswords and eviscerator matched perfectly well.

I didn't get devs because deathwatch don't have devs. Same reason I didn't buy tacs.

What they do have, however, is the ability to take Intercessors, Inceptors, Aggressors and Hellblasters. Those exist in the deathwatch rules. They work about as well as one of those "Mom can we have X?" "We have X at home!" meme formats as an actual deathwatch kill team, but they do exist and I could take them if I wanted.

Of course I know the primaris range isn't built for that. That's literally what I've been saying the entire time while you've accused me of moving the goalposts. I will not be replacing my marine army with primaris because primaris do not come anywhere close to replicating the style of play and aesthetic I wanted when I started space marines. That is a legitimate complaint with primaris - they replicate one particular aesthetic and playstyle very well, several others very badly if at all.

Some people, folks who liked their marines to be a big gunline in the 30k style or the imperial fists/ultramarines style, will very easily and happily pick up primaris.

Others, like anyone who had a drop pod army, or a melee-heavy army, or a first company/deathwatch style elite army, or a biker-heavy/mobile army, or a mechanized Rhino/Razorback army...they're going to have a much more difficult time making that work with Primaris. There's no secret ILLOGICAL SWJ EXPOSE double-standard going on. People who enjoyed a large variety of playstyles are now presented with a much more contracted playstyle and some people have to adapt their army far more than others to fit that.

"I didn't personally like that option you chose" is not a legitimate counter to "this option I chose is no longer available in the new range."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:Because the primary reason I added the sternguard kit was actually to get storm bolters and storm shields, lol. That's a separate problem with GW not being terribly good at balancing their game.
The Sternguard kit has no storm shields.

Look dawg, I know you and morden are after a sweet internet dunk "Checkmate Atheists" "Illogal SJW DESTOYED WITH FACTS AND REASON" moment, but this is a subjective opinion and I have never presented it as anything but a subjective opinion.
That's fair, but don't criticise the Primaris for "needing other kits to have gothic bits" when the regular kits don't even have it.
Consistency.
If I got interested in space marines as a mobile lightning strike type force with units equipped with special weapons, I can't do that with primaris (especially if I liked Drop Pods, lol). Primaris marines are pretty much a static gunline army.
So, just to confirm (for the sake of consistency) do you think that non-mobile Space Marines and 30k Astartes are not Space Marines? Or, do you acknowledge that they're Space Marines, but just not the kind you like?

If I got interested in space marines for a gothic aesthetic, and I dislike a COD Modern Warfare tactical aesthetic, I'll need to custom-build my primaris with third party bits or bits from another kit.
Yes, and you'd have to do the same for your Tacticals as well, who also lack a lot of "gothic aesthetic". (Also, in what way are Intercessors "CoD Modern Warfare tactical aesthetic? They look nothing like CoD, save for having a longer bolter?)
If I got interested in space marines because I like making each model a unique individual, I can't do that with Primaris marines.
Tactical Marines are only slightly more varied (as in, they get one more type of helmet, and maybe one different chestplate or legs).
If I got interested in space marines as a mixed melee/shooting force with some dedicated shooting and some dedicated melee units, I can't do that with primaris marines.
So, if/when Primaris do get a dedicated melee unit, you won't have problems with them?
Much as I love those sculpts (and I do, I own them!), they have plenty of "tacticool" gubbinz on them, and aren't exactly covered in robes and tabards. The Black Shield in the back there is the exception, not the norm.

And, again, all the complaints you have with Primaris needing to buy Sternguard to be more ornate, Tactical Marines have the same. Aesthetic is not an exclusively Primaris problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Sure the basic Primaris are not going to provide you with the highly ornate Marines you want but neither would the old Tacs, Devs and Assaults - which is why you didnlt buy them presumably and wnet for the ones that had been made especially for DW - same as there is now a huge range of add ons for both Pre-Primaris and Prmaris.
Exactly. It wasn't ONLY Primaris who have less ornate sculpts.




Holy crap this whole quote thing you do is obnoxious to try and read.

Of course I have some of the same complaints with primaris and older kits in the marine range. It's why I didn't buy those. I dislike, for example, scouts, for exactly the same reason I dislike primaris. This is like countering "I don't like apples" with "Aha, but you ALSO don't like pears! CHECKMATE!"

Dedicated melee options would probably help someone accept primaris that enjoys marines with dedicated melee options, yes... It's amazing, but most people who dislike something dislike it for a reason, and if you remove that reason, they think it's fine. I never said "I hate primaris, I will never accept primaris! There is no thing you could release called a primaris I would ever buy ever!" nor did I ever say "A primaris is not a marine!" Primaris is a fething marketing label invented by Steve The Guy Who Likes Fake Latin Too Much. They're just new marine models. The only distinction between these new marine models and all the other piles upon piles of new marine models that came before is this bizarre social pressure to be a good little corporate bootlicker and throw out the brand-new product you just bought in favor of the NEWERER product that's somehow...a replacement, despite not being the same thing.

I don't see a thread being created "What are you going to do with your old howling banshees?"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/13 18:31:58


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Right again so those basic Assault Marines - the plain ones without large amounts of heraldry, scrolls or other stuff - they were fine..... and you did nothing with them other than what - paint them black?

Or did you add stuff to them like you can do with the Primaris.

Sorry but your argument is circular and somewhat incomprehensible at this point

I don't like Primaris cos they don't look gothic enough
but they look no more or less gothic than any other basic Marine
I don;t like Primaris cos they don;'t look Gothic enough like my Deathwatch
OK so do what you did with them
I dont like Primaris cos they donlt look gothic enough like the special Deathwatch models I bought
OK so just use them
I don't like Primaris cos they don;t look gothic enough like the Assault marines I bought
Er but they are not Gothic either
I don't like Primaris cos they don;t look gothic enough like the Assault marines I bought which have chainswords
Right er ok....is that Gothic then

Surely the statement shoudl just be

I don't ike Primaris because I dont like the way they look.

Nothing wrong with that and not claiming they are divergent from the design idea of a Marine.

I don't see a thread being created "What are you going to do with your old howling banshees?"


Probably becuase they look the same as the old ones? So why would there be a thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/13 18:39:52


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





techsoldaten wrote:You haven't been putting any balls in any courts, you've been taking a series of absurd positions that are increasingly specific to the point of having nothing to do with the original topic.
In what way are they absurd?
More than one style of armor existed, more than one illustrator's vision of what it looks like was used by GW. One does not exclude the other.
Agreed. So why, when tacticool art styles and suchlike are shown, have people screamed about "tacticool =/= space marines"?

Everyone has said that.
So, you didn't read the set of comments I found for you.

I suggest you go back and do that?
You are the one saying the fact there are variants means classic gothic armor has never been part of the aestheic, that it refers to lots of different things, and a bunch of other garbage.
I've never said that "gothic has never been part of the aesthetic". I've said that there's plenty of models and artwork which have very little in the way of gothic aesthetic, and so having gothic aesthetic isn't compulsory.

Unlike you, who claimed that, because Primaris Marines had no gothic aesthetic, they were somehow missing something - despite the same thing being said for many non-Primaris Marines, and you seemingly turning a blind eye to them!
By all means, gothic aesthetic can be part of Space Marine design, I've never said otherwise. But when plenty of users, yourself included, make the implication that, 'if it don't have gothic, it ain't right' to hate on Primaris but then also ignore non-gothic oldMarines, don't you think that's just a teeny weeny bit incongruous?

Look back at all the old Marines I've posted the ones with no gothic leaning, no ornamentation, no tabards, nothing. In your own words, you felt that Primaris not having those things "feels like a loss". Do you feel the same way about those old Marines too?
It's incredibly simple for most people to grasp. You're deliberately not getting the point.
Clearly not. Perhaps if you explained your position better, maybe I would get the point.
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All I'm asking for is a degree of consistency. Show me why flat, easy build, unadorned old Marines are widely accepted, but Primaris Marines, who have plenty of their own ornamentation and "gothic" art aren't.
No thank you, and don't tell me what to do.
Cool. Guess I won't be taking your argument seriously then, if you can't even explain it.

Some people do not like Primaris. It's a matter of taste and it seems that's what all your questions are getting at. You don't like that some people don't like the way Primaris look and you're trying to make a case why that's stupid.
It *is* a matter of taste, yes! But I'd rather people just said "I don't like them because of some irrational gut feeling" than spout a bunch of inconsistent comments about how they're "not gothic enough" when they're perfectly in line with other Space Marines that they've never complained about before. I couldn't care less if people liked them or not, but don't try to make up reasons that fall apart under the most basic of scrutinies!

If you dislike Primaris, that's fine. But don't claim it's bad because "it's not gothic enough" or "it's got tacticool bits" or "it's heresy" or "it's too bland", and not apply those same criticisms elsewhere. Be consistent with your complaints, and I won't have an issue.

They are ruining the game and the aesthetic, at my FLGS no one plays against PEQ and their OP lists, we make them play each other in a corner and keep them out of tournaments.
Thank god I don't play at a gatekeeping LGS like yours (I removed the F for that reason). God forbid someone plays an army I don't like, that sounds like a perfect excuse to segregate them and ostracise them from our hobby! /s

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Everything else you said is garbage. Stop wasting everyone's time.
Answer my questions first. Shouldn't be hard.

That's the problem. Your questions have been answered repeatedly, you just keep coming back with increased insipidity.
No they haven't. Only Brutus has actually answered my question about if the non-gothic Tactical Marines are a problem, by explaining that actually, yes, they don't like the non-ornate oldMarines too. In doing so, they've elevated their argument beyond "I don't like Primaris" and into "I don't like this feature, which extends far beyond just Primaris and into wider Space Marine designs". They've been consistent, and as I result, I have a great deal of respect for that.

No one is going to give you an answer that satisfies you, this is like the kid who keeps asking but why?
Again, Brutus has demonstrated otherwise. Give me a *consistent* answer, and I'll be happy.
And, for what it's worth, there's nothing wrong with asking why if all the answers you're given are empty shells of an argument.

Give me a consistent point, and I'll respect it. Show me why Primaris specifically are bad; show me that you hold old Marines to the same standard; or just say you dislike Primaris for some unquantifiable irrational reason and it's as simple as that. Just don't make claims to some kind of artistic standard or appeal to authority or superiority that older models and artwork don't live it to as well.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






You just responded to a post that included this statement

nor did I ever say "A primaris is not a marine!"

I'm gonna make it real real real big, so you can read it carefully. I am including NO OTHER ARGUMENTS OR TANGENTS that you can possibly latch on to here.


With this:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Nothing wrong with that and not claiming they are divergent from the design idea of a Marine.


Can you understand why doing this repeatedly like you've been doing is irritating?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





the_scotsman wrote:
Holy crap this whole quote thing you do is obnoxious to try and read.
Eh, I like to keep arguments focused as to what I responding to.
Of course I have some of the same complaints with primaris and older kits in the marine range. It's why I didn't buy those. I dislike, for example, scouts, for exactly the same reason I dislike primaris. This is like countering "I don't like apples" with "Aha, but you ALSO don't like pears! CHECKMATE!"
Perfect! That's all I was asking for! I wanted to know that you weren't just singling out Primaris, and that you were holding the old Marines to the same standards! You are being consistent. Thank you.

Dedicated melee options would probably help someone accept primaris that enjoys marines with dedicated melee options, yes... It's amazing, but most people who dislike something dislike it for a reason, and if you remove that reason, they think it's fine.
Absolutely. That's *why* I'm asking all these questions so I know what those reasons are, and so I know that those reasons aren't solely being levelled at Primaris. I want to know what the issue is, and that it's an issue you have with every other Space Marine.

So, to be clear, it's not explicitly Primaris that's the problem: the problem for you is Space Marine models without the same degree of customisation as the more ornate kits, and a more flexible army list.
I never said "I hate primaris, I will never accept primaris! There is no thing you could release called a primaris I would ever buy ever!" nor did I ever say "A primaris is not a marine!"
No, you didn't. But there are plenty of people who do say that. Again, I greatly appreciate you clarifying your point, and expanding on your own personal preferences of what you like in a Space Marine, without appealing to some kind of "real Space Marine" idea.
The only distinction between these new marine models and all the other piles upon piles of new marine models that came before is this bizarre social pressure to be a good little corporate bootlicker and throw out the brand-new product you just bought in favor of the NEWERER product that's somehow...a replacement, despite not being the same thing.
Well, to be fair, I do agree with you that no-one should have to buy new models, and I wholeheartedly support sticking to your own collections if Primaris don't appeal. I'm not saying at all that someone should have to buy new models. By all means, if you like Primaris, get them, but I don't agree with anyone saying "sell all your old stuff, get your new Primaris now!". I just want people to explain their dislike of Primaris without being inconsistent, which you have done, and I greatly respect that.

Thank you.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

the_scotsman wrote:
You just responded to a post that included this statement

nor did I ever say "A primaris is not a marine!"

I'm gonna make it real real real big, so you can read it carefully. I am including NO OTHER ARGUMENTS OR TANGENTS that you can possibly latch on to here.


With this:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Nothing wrong with that and not claiming they are divergent from the design idea of a Marine.


Can you understand why doing this repeatedly like you've been doing is irritating?


well done - you have finally stated a clear opinion:
You don't like Primaris


Give yourself a gold star and maybe something for your blood pressure.....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/13 18:53:01


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Mr Morden wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
You just responded to a post that included this statement

nor did I ever say "A primaris is not a marine!"

I'm gonna make it real real real big, so you can read it carefully. I am including NO OTHER ARGUMENTS OR TANGENTS that you can possibly latch on to here.


With this:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Nothing wrong with that and not claiming they are divergent from the design idea of a Marine.


Can you understand why doing this repeatedly like you've been doing is irritating?


well done - you have finally stated a clear opinion.

Give yourself a gold star and maybe something for your blood pressure.....


....man alive, if I didn't interact with folks like this in real life at my job I'd swear you were just doing this to be irritating.

Do you not get that this has been my opinion the entire time we've been talking, and that you've been responding to some fantasy version of me that exists only in your own head that has some other opinion?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

the_scotsman wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
You just responded to a post that included this statement

nor did I ever say "A primaris is not a marine!"

I'm gonna make it real real real big, so you can read it carefully. I am including NO OTHER ARGUMENTS OR TANGENTS that you can possibly latch on to here.


With this:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Nothing wrong with that and not claiming they are divergent from the design idea of a Marine.


Can you understand why doing this repeatedly like you've been doing is irritating?


well done - you have finally stated a clear opinion.

Give yourself a gold star and maybe something for your blood pressure.....


....man alive, if I didn't interact with folks like this in real life at my job I'd swear you were just doing this to be irritating.

Do you not get that this has been my opinion the entire time we've been talking, and that you've been responding to some fantasy version of me that exists only in your own head that has some other opinion?


Same here - its also vaguely iritating to be shouted at over the internet as well.

What did you do with plain old Assault Marines to make them Gothic looking?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Mr Morden wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
You just responded to a post that included this statement

nor did I ever say "A primaris is not a marine!"

I'm gonna make it real real real big, so you can read it carefully. I am including NO OTHER ARGUMENTS OR TANGENTS that you can possibly latch on to here.


With this:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Nothing wrong with that and not claiming they are divergent from the design idea of a Marine.


Can you understand why doing this repeatedly like you've been doing is irritating?


well done - you have finally stated a clear opinion.

Give yourself a gold star and maybe something for your blood pressure.....


....man alive, if I didn't interact with folks like this in real life at my job I'd swear you were just doing this to be irritating.

Do you not get that this has been my opinion the entire time we've been talking, and that you've been responding to some fantasy version of me that exists only in your own head that has some other opinion?


Same here - its also vaguely iritating to be shouted at over the internet as well.

What did you do with plain old Assault Marines to make them Gothic looking?


It's a man with a jet pack strapped to his back holding a gigantic chainsaw sword - I didn't have to do very much.

The entire reason I got sucked into this argument is the fact that I pointed out on page 2 that GW seems to have basically forgotten what the two iconic weapons they made for the Space Marines were - the boltgun, and the chainsword. Primaris marines have something bonkers like 12 different legally distinct adjective-verbnoun Bolt-somethings, and the whole range has one chainsword on a chapter-specific upgrade frame. Unless there's two now with the new space wolf one, I honestly don't recall. With how much GW has been obsessed with their own brand image these days, making sure that every marine subunit gets redesigned to be a legally recognizable Brand Entity (in case you're wondering the legal reasoning behind the redesign of Scouts to Reivers and the reduction in the elephant-faced Terminator armor marks in favor of the more recognizably marine-helmeted designs, that's why), I'm frankly amazed that they have pivoted away from that particular weapon being center-focus.

They just aren't the space marines that I bought into to create my space marine army. They're a different thing. Their playstyle matches up just fine with some peoples' marine armies, but it doesn't match up with mine. It's the same reason I don't include unadorned, bolter-armed tactical marines in my army, or spiky chaos space marines, or Blood Bowl Halflings. They're not what my army is.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





the_scotsman wrote:
They just aren't the space marines that I bought into to create my space marine army. They're a different thing. Their playstyle matches up just fine with some peoples' marine armies, but it doesn't match up with mine. It's the same reason I don't include unadorned, bolter-armed tactical marines in my army, or spiky chaos space marines, or Blood Bowl Halflings. They're not what my army is.
Yeah, that's completely fair. Just like how some people just don't like Bikes, or aren't keen on Scouts - Space Marines just have a very broad range of aesthetic and playstyle, so obviously some bits of it just don't align.
If people were upset because Primaris Marines don't match the particular style they prefer, well that's understandable, just as long as they make it clear that they're aware that non-Primaris Marines have that same issue.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
They just aren't the space marines that I bought into to create my space marine army. They're a different thing. Their playstyle matches up just fine with some peoples' marine armies, but it doesn't match up with mine. It's the same reason I don't include unadorned, bolter-armed tactical marines in my army, or spiky chaos space marines, or Blood Bowl Halflings. They're not what my army is.
Yeah, that's completely fair. Just like how some people just don't like Bikes, or aren't keen on Scouts - Space Marines just have a very broad range of aesthetic and playstyle, so obviously some bits of it just don't align.
If people were upset because Primaris Marines don't match the particular style they prefer, well that's understandable, just as long as they make it clear that they're aware that non-Primaris Marines have that same issue.


Sure. The distinction is, when Deathwatch came out, nobody went and asked the guy with the uniform, gunline style imperial fists army when he was going to get around to replacing all his imp fists with individually armed, ornate, elite Deathwatch dudes.

I'm also aware that Necrons don't match that aesthetic. Were you gonna ask if I was aware that they are also different?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh look, a new post on General from a returning space marine player. Let's see what questions he's got...

4: "Hey, where the chainswords at?"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/13 19:26:06


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 blood reaper wrote:
I treat different marine models like armour marks. My squads have models that range from second edition to eighth mixed together - Warhammer is not a clean universe and given its scale and scope, Marines will almost certainly vary radically given the length and breadth of their combat and experiences. It makes the units way more fun to look at, and feels almost 'historical'.

Also feth spending £35 on ten models with less options than the previous, cheaper kit.


I wish that the restartes had been made with this attitude. I wanted to add and as you note even mix. Why the radical departure. Cant share equipment? GW gives me the 'emperor backstabbing the jedi clone war style' heebie jeebies...

My marines were lost in the warp. That was their story. Not so unique but 2 things.
1. They scavenge. Rebuild. Craftsmanship with such limited supplies in dead emptiness of space then scavenging hulks for parts... yada.
2. New models could have been contact upon a valiant return. Instead, now they return to find heresy!!! They are unsure of the universe that they have entered into... but one thing is certain. The foul stench of chaos hangs heavy over the empire. Much has changed ...

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Man, pandemic or no, some of you really just need to put your surgical masks on & go run about the yard for a bit....
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 jeff white wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
I treat different marine models like armour marks. My squads have models that range from second edition to eighth mixed together - Warhammer is not a clean universe and given its scale and scope, Marines will almost certainly vary radically given the length and breadth of their combat and experiences. It makes the units way more fun to look at, and feels almost 'historical'.

Also feth spending £35 on ten models with less options than the previous, cheaper kit.


I wish that the restartes had been made with this attitude. I wanted to add and as you note even mix. Why the radical departure. Cant share equipment? GW gives me the 'emperor backstabbing the jedi clone war style' heebie jeebies...

My marines were lost in the warp. That was their story. Not so unique but 2 things.
1. They scavenge. Rebuild. Craftsmanship with such limited supplies in dead emptiness of space then scavenging hulks for parts... yada.
2. New models could have been contact upon a valiant return. Instead, now they return to find heresy!!! They are unsure of the universe that they have entered into... but one thing is certain. The foul stench of chaos hangs heavy over the empire. Much has changed ...

Wow I've never seen such a unique backstory on why a Chapter doesn't have Primaris since 8th started.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
They just aren't the space marines that I bought into to create my space marine army. They're a different thing. Their playstyle matches up just fine with some peoples' marine armies, but it doesn't match up with mine. It's the same reason I don't include unadorned, bolter-armed tactical marines in my army, or spiky chaos space marines, or Blood Bowl Halflings. They're not what my army is.
Yeah, that's completely fair. Just like how some people just don't like Bikes, or aren't keen on Scouts - Space Marines just have a very broad range of aesthetic and playstyle, so obviously some bits of it just don't align.
If people were upset because Primaris Marines don't match the particular style they prefer, well that's understandable, just as long as they make it clear that they're aware that non-Primaris Marines have that same issue.


Sure. The distinction is, when Deathwatch came out, nobody went and asked the guy with the uniform, gunline style imperial fists army when he was going to get around to replacing all his imp fists with individually armed, ornate, elite Deathwatch dudes.

I'm also aware that Necrons don't match that aesthetic. Were you gonna ask if I was aware that they are also different?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh look, a new post on General from a returning space marine player. Let's see what questions he's got...

4: "Hey, where the chainswords at?"

The Chainswords are everywhere. Duh.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/13 22:36:24


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in bo
Fresh-Faced New User



Bolivia

What will I do with my original Marines?

Keep them of course. My Mighty Mouse Captain (compared to Primaris) is one of my favourite paint jobs.

I´ll keep buying classic marines as long as they sell them. I´ll only get primaris from starter sets though. I think the mono weapon groups suck, personally. Rocket Launchers and Flamers (choose your own) are so cool and add so much flavour to a squad. They are "tactical"!

I originally started painting the primaris I have in the same chapter colours, but now I realise I´m going to make them a different chapter and scheme, since the army looks stupid together. Apart from the 3 flying termies (the Intwhatevers, they all have the same damned name!). They look cool in the army..

The day GW disontinues classic marines will be a very sad day. Personally I think they´ve realised that they´ve storied themselves into a corner, as the classics still sell well, apparently. Devastators rock, assault marines rock, and tactical marines are the coolest squad group out there.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





I'm gonna note Primaris are still in their relative infancy. give Priamris 10-15 years for GW to bloat out the range and I'd not be at all suprised to see "vetern intercessors" a space wolves intercessor pack thats more then just an upgrade frame, etc.

that is the REAL differance between old marines and Primaris. Old Marines are a... not even sure the phrase mature line really does it justice. it's a line that has been around for so long, developed so much that every little variation is covered.

Let's look at space Marines for a moment, the core of the Marine range is it's infantry.

divided into 5 distinct types of infantry.

"Line infantry" (tactical Marines etc. the "guys with the bolt gun)
"Assault Infantry" (jump[ packs and CCW weapons)
"Heavy weapons squads" devestators and their varients
Scouts
Terminators.


Into that framework are dozen of kits, with a unique tactical squad kit for most of the chapters, (DW, BA and space wolves each have their own basic troop kit) etc.

I'm not saying this is a abd thing or a good thing, but it's certainly differant from Primaris Marines who haven't yet reached the point of maturity where GW's really thinking about doing a seperate kit entirely for dark angel intercessors.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/14 01:12:30


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in se
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It *is* a matter of taste, yes! But I'd rather people just said "I don't like them because of some irrational gut feeling" than spout a bunch of inconsistent comments about how they're "not gothic enough" when they're perfectly in line with other Space Marines that they've never complained about before. I couldn't care less if people liked them or not, but don't try to make up reasons that fall apart under the most basic of scrutinies!

If you dislike Primaris, that's fine. But don't claim it's bad because "it's not gothic enough" or "it's got tacticool bits" or "it's heresy" or "it's too bland", and not apply those same criticisms elsewhere. Be consistent with your complaints, and I won't have an issue.


Why do you say we have to be irrational in our oppinions not to like primaris? You did the same thing on me saying my points were" not grounded in reality". We think they lack in design, we all try to explain why, we may have different reasons. You sound so dismissal and defensive about it
What are you trying to gain here?

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Gitdakka wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It *is* a matter of taste, yes! But I'd rather people just said "I don't like them because of some irrational gut feeling" than spout a bunch of inconsistent comments about how they're "not gothic enough" when they're perfectly in line with other Space Marines that they've never complained about before. I couldn't care less if people liked them or not, but don't try to make up reasons that fall apart under the most basic of scrutinies!

If you dislike Primaris, that's fine. But don't claim it's bad because "it's not gothic enough" or "it's got tacticool bits" or "it's heresy" or "it's too bland", and not apply those same criticisms elsewhere. Be consistent with your complaints, and I won't have an issue.


Why do you say we have to be irrational in our oppinions not to like primaris? You did the same thing on me saying my points were" not grounded in reality". We think they lack in design, we all try to explain why, we may have different reasons. You sound so dismissal and defensive about it
What are you trying to gain here?


Mostly because many of the points made are NOT grounded in reality. talking points are tossed out that doesn't actually say what people think they're saying.

as others have said "I dislike Marines that are light on decoration" is a valid complaint. "Primaris are all lame because they're not gothic" isn't. for one thing gothic has a precise descriptor, it can refer to a style of architechture (which Marine minis never have been gothic, given one of the hallmarks of gothic sculpture is elongated necks and torsos) gothic armor is a specific type of german plate armor from the 1500s, noted for it's fluted style, which has never been a marine thing. it's also known for scupture being embedded in everything, which.. we occasionally see with Marine stuff, but almost always on conversions, never on core Marine kits.


this would be a gothic land raider.

but most often we see them as something like this

Marines don't have excessive gothic styling, aside from maybe on their vetern units. Now sisters of battle. THAT is a gothic styled army.


I mean just look at


and compare it to

so this is what people are getting at. it's fine to say "Primaris Marines aren't ornate, and I prefer my Marines on the more ornate side and thus they don't work for me" but claiming Primaris Marines universally are bad because of that etc. ignores that many if not most old Marines aren't ornate, they CAN be and we see examples of it, but they generally don't come with it.
I have to be a talented painter, kitbasher etc, if I wanna turn a land raider into something like Calgar's Land Raider.

And now that Calgar is a Primaris I'd not be TOOO suprised to see a Repulsor tank given that kind of treatment in the future



Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






While it's been correctly pointed out that Gothic Armour is not a space marine aesthetic and is a specific style of art and architecture.

I think a lot of people have been using the word gothic as a bit of a catch-all phrase as a descriptor for highly ornate, dark images of space marines and 40k in general that have been used throughout the decades.

Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The Chainswords are everywhere. Duh.

Not in Primaris kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:

Mostly because many of the points made are NOT grounded in reality. talking points are tossed out that doesn't actually say what people think they're saying.

Because aesthetic terminology is often imprecise.

But "tacticool" details take precedent in the Primaris aesthetic far more than in the realmarine aesthetic. That is grounded in reality.

The third definition I get for "gothic" btw is:
"belonging to or redolent of the Dark Ages; portentously gloomy or horrifying." which appears spot on for our context here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/14 09:08:12


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Hanoi, Vietnam.

I haven't really warmed to the Primaris range yet. I much prefer their proportions, but in almost every other respect, I prefer the old sculpts. So I think until such a time as the Primaris sculpts themselves are redone - which will take what, another 5 to 10 years - I'll just stick with mini-marine kits for as long as I can keep buying them. If they pull the rug from under any old kits before I'm finished my current army project, I'll probably just start collecting Genestealer cults.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Gitdakka wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It *is* a matter of taste, yes! But I'd rather people just said "I don't like them because of some irrational gut feeling" than spout a bunch of inconsistent comments about how they're "not gothic enough" when they're perfectly in line with other Space Marines that they've never complained about before. I couldn't care less if people liked them or not, but don't try to make up reasons that fall apart under the most basic of scrutinies!

If you dislike Primaris, that's fine. But don't claim it's bad because "it's not gothic enough" or "it's got tacticool bits" or "it's heresy" or "it's too bland", and not apply those same criticisms elsewhere. Be consistent with your complaints, and I won't have an issue.


Why do you say we have to be irrational in our oppinions not to like primaris?
That was one of two options. You can explain your argument, and be consistent with it (aka, if you're complaining about blank armour or tacticool pouches, scopes, and wrist computers, hold oldMarine units to the same scrutiny), or abandon impartiality.

I outright admit I have my own irrational dislikes in the Space Marine range, but I'm not going to claim that they're "not Space Marine" - I just dislike it, but it's not for any solid, rational reason that wouldn't incriminate other aspects. It's an irrational dislike.
You did the same thing on me saying my points were" not grounded in reality". We think they lack in design, we all try to explain why, we may have different reasons. You sound so dismissal and defensive about it
You do give your reasons why, and nearly all of those reasons lack consistency (or, at the very least, many of you fail to make that clear, and avoid the topic when I bring it up).
For example, people saying that they "lack gothic design" - that's fine, but what about old Marines who similarly lack the gothic ornamentation and look tacticool? All I'm after is a "yes, this old Marine isn't gothic, and I dislike it as well" or a "no, that Marine is still gothic". To the latter, I would ask for further explanation and a detailed side-by-side breakdown on how a bare Primaris Marine isn't gothic, but a bare normal Marine is, until they can finally show me this elusive "evidence". Or, if that's not possible, for them simply to say "that's completely my subjective irrational opinion"* without any kind of appeals to "True Space Marines" or "Real Space Marines" or "GW's killing Space Marines" or similar appeals to superiority and authority.

*which isn't a defeat or anything to be ashamed of because we all have irrational illogical opinions, and it's absolutely fine to have a dislike of something and that to be completely inconsistent - as long as you admit it!
What are you trying to gain here?
As I've been saying for several pages now: consistency.

Brutus_Apex wrote:While it's been correctly pointed out that Gothic Armour is not a space marine aesthetic and is a specific style of art and architecture.

I think a lot of people have been using the word gothic as a bit of a catch-all phrase as a descriptor for highly ornate, dark images of space marines and 40k in general that have been used throughout the decades.
Which is fine, but when there's pictures of Space Marines that aren't particularly ornate or dark, why should they be called gothic? It's a bit of a bastardisation of the phrase, and just ends up meaning "whatever I want it to mean". In my opinion, Space Marine architecture and certain Chapters (mostly the Black Templars) are gothic, but it's really the Sisters who are the "gothic" looking faction. Not all Space Marines look gothic, so when people complain about Primaris "not being gothic", I have to wonder if they complain about the other Marines who don't.

Insectum7 wrote:Because aesthetic terminology is often imprecise.
So, completely subjective? Why use it to make claims to objectivity and things like "realmarine" if you're also going to say it's an imprecise system?

But "tacticool" details take precedent in the Primaris aesthetic far more than in the realmarine aesthetic. That is grounded in reality.
Right, but what about the tacticool details in oldMarine aesthetic? According to you, tacticool has no place in the Space Marine aesthetic - so what about all those tacticool Deathwatch wrist computers, those pouches and goggles and cloth armour on Scouts, those scopes on bolters, the Raptors Chapter, etc etc? Are they "realmarines" too?

The third definition I get for "gothic" btw is:
"belonging to or redolent of the Dark Ages; portentously gloomy or horrifying." which appears spot on for our context here.
Howso? What about Mr Snapfit Tactical that I've posted repeatedly in this thread is "portentously gloomy or horrifying"?


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Gothic style was actually late/high medieval ages not dark ages. Just for everyones information.

Personally I prefer the plainer look, with a few pouches etc. Its easier for me to add a thing or two, maybe, to a plain marine than trying to remove bling from a more 'decorated' one.

Is it easy to make a marine more gothic looking? IMHO yes.

Is it easy to make a gothic looking marine less gothic? IMHO no.
   
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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
.
Insectum7 wrote:Because aesthetic terminology is often imprecise.
So, completely subjective? Why use it to make claims to objectivity and things like "realmarine" if you're also going to say it's an imprecise system?

Imprecise does't mean subjective.

But "tacticool" details take precedent in the Primaris aesthetic far more than in the realmarine aesthetic. That is grounded in reality.
Right, but what about the tacticool details in oldMarine aesthetic? According to you, tacticool has no place in the Space Marine aesthetic - so what about all those tacticool Deathwatch wrist computers, those pouches and goggles and cloth armour on Scouts, those scopes on bolters, the Raptors Chapter, etc etc? Are they "realmarines" too?

Show me where I've said that. I actually like the Scout design, although much prefer the older metals.

The third definition I get for "gothic" btw is:
"belonging to or redolent of the Dark Ages; portentously gloomy or horrifying." which appears spot on for our context here.
Howso? What about Mr Snapfit Tactical that I've posted repeatedly in this thread is "portentously gloomy or horrifying"?

1: It's crude simplicity. Nothing on that model looks like it follows any contemporary logic.
2: Its context. That model was born into a universe of static decline, mired in tradition and ritual, where all the ancient heroes are dead. Also, theres a good chance the sergeant of the squad came with a chainsword.

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Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
.
Insectum7 wrote:Because aesthetic terminology is often imprecise.
So, completely subjective? Why use it to make claims to objectivity and things like "realmarine" if you're also going to say it's an imprecise system?

Imprecise does't mean subjective.
But how can an imprecise system be used to measure objectivity?
But "tacticool" details take precedent in the Primaris aesthetic far more than in the realmarine aesthetic. That is grounded in reality.
Right, but what about the tacticool details in oldMarine aesthetic? According to you, tacticool has no place in the Space Marine aesthetic - so what about all those tacticool Deathwatch wrist computers, those pouches and goggles and cloth armour on Scouts, those scopes on bolters, the Raptors Chapter, etc etc? Are they "realmarines" too?

Show me where I've said that.
Fair point, you haven't - but your comment certainly implies that tacticool isn't appropriate in Space Marine designs.
I actually like the Scout design, although much prefer the older metals.
But the Scout design isn't particularly gothic, ornamented, and is filled with pouches, scoped bolt pistols (with silencers/suppressors!), and the Scout Sniper kit doesn't have a single chainsword on it! In fact, they seem to follow "contemporary logic" quite well.
Why are they fine, and the Intercessors not? This is what I'm talking about - why are one units exempt from criticism but other Primaris units aren't?
The third definition I get for "gothic" btw is:
"belonging to or redolent of the Dark Ages; portentously gloomy or horrifying." which appears spot on for our context here.
Howso? What about Mr Snapfit Tactical that I've posted repeatedly in this thread is "portentously gloomy or horrifying"?
1: It's crude simplicity. Nothing on that model looks like it follows any contemporary logic.
What do you mean, "contemporary logic?" I'd say myself that the Intercessors share the same crude simplicity (big armour, big gun, big power pack), so what are the features on Tacticals that "don't follow contemporary logic" that the Intercessors don't?
2: Its context. That model was born into a universe of static decline, mired in tradition and ritual, where all the ancient heroes are dead.
So, nothing to do with the design of the model then.
If GW had released Primaris without Guilliman, say instead a cabal of Techpriests and high ranking Imperial and Mechanicus officials have discovered long lost STCs that allow the creation of Primaris Armour and weaponry, and it's still horrifically misunderstood, but slowly more Chapters are adopting this Primaris style into their ranks, or that this has ALWAYS existed in Chapters, and GW just retcon them in, like with Centurions or Stormtalons - would you still dislike the model?

Fluff aside, I'm discussing the model and artwork. Bringing in the context around the model has nothing to do with it's design., which is what I asked you.
Also, theres a good chance the sergeant of the squad came with a chainsword.
Still can in Primaris squads. What, just because it doesn't come in the pack, it's not valid? Tell that to the Sniper Scouts bereft of a chainsword.
I remember when you could buy Tactical Combat Squads, which didn't even come with any special weapons, heavy weapons, and I'm fairly sure they didn't even have any Sergeant options. Were they "not real Marines"? If I build a Tactical Squad, and I don't give the sergeant a chainsword, are they not Space Marines? If the Sergeant with a chainsword dies, are they no longer Space Marines?

Since when did "being a Space Marine" matter depending on the weapon one guy in a squad carries? Are Space Marines not allowed to be depicted alone? Must they always have a chainsword bearer on hand, just so they can assuage the doubts of "if they're a *real* Space Marine"?

I'm talking about that ONE Space Marine, not their squad, not their Sergeant, that ONE model. Is that model a Space Marine? Yes, according to you. So why is THAT model a Space Marine, but the Primaris isn't?

So far, the only answer I seem to have gotten is "the old Marine doesn't follow contemporary logic", so I'm curious to see your elaboration on what that means.


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