Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If it's another thread to discuss SW/DA/BA and let the usual suspect ramble in ignorance I'd rather not participate to the discussion (and frankly I'd ask the mod to just smite down the thread if that was the case).

But, about the topic of bloat, the real problem is not the number of unit entry but rather the inconsistency of GW's writing. They need some form of equity between codexes in regard to faction rules, stratagems and relics.
It's because of those that the number of book that you need to play is increasing so much and it is also mainly those that create huge imbalance within the game.

What GW should be doing is :
- increase the number of universal stratagem (not just the 3 strat that are in the rule book, but all factions should have some form of vect imo, and a few others to even out things) and reduce the number of faction specific stratagem to something like 1 page ;
- no faction should have more than X number of relics (nowadays SM have 4 pages of relics to pick while some factions just have 1, like DeathGuard for exemple, it is ABSURD).

The rest of the discussion is just noise.

One man's bloat is another man's chrome. By taking away USRs the Devs have mitigated what some would call bloat. There is a small core rule set and by tying special rules to factions and datasheets the players only have to manage the special rules that are in play.

I think that we just went through a stealthy, evolutionary edition change with the new Marines Codex and Psychic Awakening. The core rules remain, but the way that many armies behave on the tabletop has changed quite a bit. Works for me.

I hope that we can avoid the usual complaining about the DA/BA and SW. Those forces have enough distinctiveness to warrant being their own factions at an acceptable opportunity cost to the game developers/product line managers. This makes the game a more diverse playing environment. I fail to see how the game would be improved by rolling them into the Space Marines Dex. At the end of the day the market will decide.

I can't really agree that the various Space Marine Codexes/Supplements are bloat.

Codex Space Marines and it's supplements plus Faith and Fury for Black Templars are a fine way to have both consolidated rules and rules to allow the 8 core "chapters" both share units in an easily updatable way while also creating rules to allow them to play significantly differently on the table.

The "non-compliant" Codexes (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves) continuing as separate codexes rather than additional supplements seems to be primarily to easily outline what units they don't get out of Codex Space Marines rather than to include additional units (which all the supplements do). There are many differently named units in some of these codexes (Master or Wolf Lord rather than Captain) and a few additional weapons options, but really it is what they don't get that is the important thing.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
And again in actual rules/datasheets what exactly needs to be added to basic unit to igve Dark Angels the options to run Deathwing/Ravenwing. Why exactly is a Codex needed rather than at most a suppplement?
Which units in the Wolves could not be handled by minor unit options or name changes and again how is this not handable by a most a Supplement.

Why remove a Codex from a chapter that has had one since 1996?

Better late than never ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

IMO special characters should also work this way.

Yes!

That sounds like it just removes the special part of special characters.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I hope that we can avoid the usual complaining about the DA/BA and SW. Those forces have enough distinctiveness to warrant being their own factions at an acceptable opportunity cost to the game developers/product line managers. This makes the game a more diverse playing environment. I fail to see how the game would be improved by rolling them into the Space Marines Dex. At the end of the day the market will decide.

Having a "all the space marines chapters" codex and 3 "this one specific space marine chapter" is about as dumb as having an RPG with generic "create your character" rules that work only for fighters, and then one single pre-rolled character for mage, one single pre-rolled character for rogue, and one single pre-rolled character for cleric. It's dumb as a sack of brick. It's an absolutely terrible atrocious idea.
Get 4 different space marines codices if you want, but at least have each codex represent an archetype of space marines chapters, rather than a single stupid chapter...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I hope that we can avoid the usual complaining about the DA/BA and SW. Those forces have enough distinctiveness to warrant being their own factions at an acceptable opportunity cost to the game developers/product line managers. This makes the game a more diverse playing environment. I fail to see how the game would be improved by rolling them into the Space Marines Dex. At the end of the day the market will decide.

Having a "all the space marines chapters" codex and 3 "this one specific space marine chapter" is about as dumb as having an RPG with generic "create your character" rules that work only for fighters, and then one single pre-rolled character for mage, one single pre-rolled character for rogue, and one single pre-rolled character for cleric. It's dumb as a sack of brick. It's an absolutely terrible atrocious idea.
Get 4 different space marines codices if you want, but at least have each codex represent an archetype of space marines chapters, rather than a single stupid chapter...

Who cares really about this topic really ? There are five thread in the last five month that discussed this. Do you really think the main problem with 40K rules is that DA/SW/BA have a specific codex and that those specific factions are at the source of the bloat ? ...

I would be annoyed if they split out the Tau septs into separate books. I think it's preferable when basically compatible sub-factions are collected together. And that's what ultras/salies/ect. are: sub-factions.
I have a pretty strong opinion that the basics for playing an army should be big rule book and a codex as much as practical. (I don't so much mind expansions/updates in subsequent books, more the idea that to play Ultramarines you have to have a whole extra basic book compared to Ulthwe or Cadians or Farsight)

So I think the codex-compliant chapters should be in a single book. The special rules all follow the same form and unique datasheets for these factions are not that lengthy. Putting these in separate books seems like a cash grab, rather than a useful expansion.

The particularly unique chapters on the other hand, have enough special sauce to have codices - and be fully playable from them.


Now, is it the current state really "bloat'? Eh, kinda getting there for some Imperium folks. But it's not like you've got to buy every book for every army, just the ones that apply to your army. They don't go and stuff basic, whole-game, rules updates in the PA books. Changing how charging works for everyone in Engine War would certainly be bloat.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I hope that we can avoid the usual complaining about the DA/BA and SW. Those forces have enough distinctiveness to warrant being their own factions at an acceptable opportunity cost to the game developers/product line managers. This makes the game a more diverse playing environment. I fail to see how the game would be improved by rolling them into the Space Marines Dex. At the end of the day the market will decide.

Having a "all the space marines chapters" codex and 3 "this one specific space marine chapter" is about as dumb as having an RPG with generic "create your character" rules that work only for fighters, and then one single pre-rolled character for mage, one single pre-rolled character for rogue, and one single pre-rolled character for cleric. It's dumb as a sack of brick. It's an absolutely terrible atrocious idea.
Get 4 different space marines codices if you want, but at least have each codex represent an archetype of space marines chapters, rather than a single stupid chapter...

Who cares really about this topic really ? There are five thread in the last five month that discussed this. Do you really think the main problem with 40K rules is that DA/SW/BA have a specific codex and that those specific factions are at the source of the bloat ? ...

Well, judging by that poll quite a few people care about the topic.

And one could argue that the bloat, while not the problem (although space marines are the OP thing to beat now...), it does exasperate several pre-existing problems.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I hope that we can avoid the usual complaining about the DA/BA and SW. Those forces have enough distinctiveness to warrant being their own factions at an acceptable opportunity cost to the game developers/product line managers. This makes the game a more diverse playing environment. I fail to see how the game would be improved by rolling them into the Space Marines Dex. At the end of the day the market will decide.

Having a "all the space marines chapters" codex and 3 "this one specific space marine chapter" is about as dumb as having an RPG with generic "create your character" rules that work only for fighters, and then one single pre-rolled character for mage, one single pre-rolled character for rogue, and one single pre-rolled character for cleric. It's dumb as a sack of brick. It's an absolutely terrible atrocious idea.
Get 4 different space marines codices if you want, but at least have each codex represent an archetype of space marines chapters, rather than a single stupid chapter...

Who cares really about this topic really ? There are five thread in the last five month that discussed this. Do you really think the main problem with 40K rules is that DA/SW/BA have a specific codex and that those specific factions are at the source of the bloat ? ...

Well, judging by that poll quite a few people care about the topic.

And one could argue that the bloat, while not the problem (although space marines are the OP thing to beat now...), it does exasperate several pre-existing problems.

Nah, it seems to exasperate a very vocal minority on here - but it might exacerbate a pre-existing problem with the way 8th was put together.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I hope that we can avoid the usual complaining about the DA/BA and SW. Those forces have enough distinctiveness to warrant being their own factions at an acceptable opportunity cost to the game developers/product line managers. This makes the game a more diverse playing environment. I fail to see how the game would be improved by rolling them into the Space Marines Dex. At the end of the day the market will decide.

Having a "all the space marines chapters" codex and 3 "this one specific space marine chapter" is about as dumb as having an RPG with generic "create your character" rules that work only for fighters, and then one single pre-rolled character for mage, one single pre-rolled character for rogue, and one single pre-rolled character for cleric. It's dumb as a sack of brick. It's an absolutely terrible atrocious idea.
Get 4 different space marines codices if you want, but at least have each codex represent an archetype of space marines chapters, rather than a single stupid chapter...

The factions are not character classes in an RPG, so your analogy is hard to follow. I get that you don't like have the Space Marines Codex and then the three distinct Codexes, but I don't see what the character class bit has to do with it. The Big Four are well-established Chapters going back to 2nd Ed in terms of having their own Codexes. Heck, the Space Wolves were the first with a Codex.

What is it that you want? A Codex for a shooty Space Marines army and a different book for an assault-oriented one?

What we have now is plenty of choice for a player, and I think that's a good thing. Those choices have some meaning: if I decide to collect Dark Angels I get access to some unique units and rules but I lose access to others.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Those choices have some meaning: if I decide to collect Dark Angels I get access to some unique units and rules but I lose access to others.

And why can't that be reflected in a supplement?

I'd understand it if the DA had MOST of their units as unique ones and only drew off a small proportion of normal Astartes units, but they really don't, and the units they don't have access to - well, there's no reason for them not to beyond artificial limits. I mean, what units that normal SM can take that DA can't have a good reason behind it?

Right now, DA share the vast majority of their book with normal Space Marines, and have only slightly more truly unique units than the Ultramarines do. Why do the DA get a Codex, but the UM don't? (And no, I don't particularly want the UM to have a Codex either).

In my opinion, it's not an issue with marines, but simply the edition running out of space.

I enjoyed 8th edition for a while when it came out, because the rules were simple and decently elegant. Still a little ho-hum, but this is 40K we're talking about. It's never been a brilliant game. I think, however, the simplicity of 40K in 8th edition meant that there simply wasn't a lot of room to "move" within the game rules. Meaning to make things increasingly powerful or special was harder and harder. In typical GW fashion they leaned heavily (real heavily...) into their two standard rule designs: re-rolling dice, and ignoring key game rules. This has been part of the GW method for a long time now.

Running out of room for "new" rules conflicts directly with the "new models get good rules" mantra which is pretty heavy within GW's releases.

Add in the usual poor GW balance when designing stuff, and you just get a clusterfeth. GW made a pretty solid and simple rule set within 8th edition, but it doesn't work very well with the standards of power creep. So as they step further outside of the 8th edition box looking for ways to make new units powerful, they end up going out on too many limbs and creating some truly awful rules combinations, etc.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The factions are not character classes in an RPG, so your analogy is hard to follow.

I don't think it is hard to follow. Maybe it's just that you disagree with it.
Custom chapter is like a custom character, pre-made chapter is like a premade character, how hard is that?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
What is it that you want? A Codex for a shooty Space Marines army and a different book for an assault-oriented one?

If we somehow have to have separate SM codex, then yeah, that makes much more sense than the current version. Though I doubt we need.

 kodos wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You know what would get rid of bloat?
Redoing the main rules properly and establishing USRs so that everything is covered by a rule in the main book. Not having 50 new rules in every unit entry that ever so slightly differs from another unit that does the exact same thing.

no, this won't work as GW already tried it several times
but because they do not think ahead while writing the core and/or feel that the new Subfaction released need something that make them more different you end up with the same bloat

re-using USR's that are already in the Core Book does no justify a new book release for GW

So just throw the baby out with the bathwater as GW did a crap job of it. It works in WMH. It works in Malifaux. It works in numerous other games. What makes 40k so special that they cannot do it?


The only people I ever see saying USRs are bad are the blind GW koolaid drinkers, because GW have implicitly told them they were bad (just like with blast templates) by ditching them in subsequent editions of the game. Try looking at other games and you'll see they work perfectly fine.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You know what would get rid of bloat?
Redoing the main rules properly and establishing USRs so that everything is covered by a rule in the main book. Not having 50 new rules in every unit entry that ever so slightly differs from another unit that does the exact same thing.

no, this won't work as GW already tried it several times
but because they do not think ahead while writing the core and/or feel that the new Subfaction released need something that make them more different you end up with the same bloat

re-using USR's that are already in the Core Book does no justify a new book release for GW

So just throw the baby out with the bathwater as GW did a crap job of it. It works in WMH. It works in Malifaux. It works in numerous other games. What makes 40k so special that they cannot do it?


The only people I ever see saying USRs are bad are the blind GW koolaid drinkers, because GW have implicitly told them they were bad (just like with blast templates) by ditching them in subsequent editions of the game. Try looking at other games and you'll see they work perfectly fine.

I don't think that's fair to say, It's probably closer to the truth that people saying USRs are bad might only have 6th/7th as a reference, which was USRs at their worst. that said, earlier editions and other games can show that USRs can be done well.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

You know what would get rid of bloat?
Redoing the main rules properly and establishing USRs so that everything is covered by a rule in the main book. Not having 50 new rules in every unit entry that ever so slightly differs from another unit that does the exact same thing.

no, this won't work as GW already tried it several times
but because they do not think ahead while writing the core and/or feel that the new Subfaction released need something that make them more different you end up with the same bloat

re-using USR's that are already in the Core Book does no justify a new book release for GW

So just throw the baby out with the bathwater as GW did a crap job of it. It works in WMH. It works in Malifaux. It works in numerous other games. What makes 40k so special that they cannot do it?

The only people I ever see saying USRs are bad are the blind GW koolaid drinkers, because GW have implicitly told them they were bad (just like with blast templates) by ditching them in subsequent editions of the game. Try looking at other games and you'll see they work perfectly fine.

USR are not bad, GW is just not able to do it right and never will as they don't fit their buisness model and asking to change back won't solve anything as GW will screw it up again

if you want USR, you need to play games from a different company

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The factions are not character classes in an RPG, so your analogy is hard to follow.

I don't think it is hard to follow. Maybe it's just that you disagree with it.
Custom chapter is like a custom character, pre-made chapter is like a premade character, how hard is that?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
What is it that you want? A Codex for a shooty Space Marines army and a different book for an assault-oriented one?

If we somehow have to have separate SM codex, then yeah, that makes much more sense than the current version. Though I doubt we need.

An analogy should, well, be analogous. A character and a chapter are not even close to the same thing in game terms. A faction from a chapter plays on its own (well, some Soup maybe). Characters are combined to make a party. I play Dark Angels, which I guess is your "pre-made character?" There are many ways to build a force from that Chapter.

Are you sad because you want to make a custom chapter, but somehow feel that you cannot? Is there something you really want from the DA/BA for your custom chapter but you also want things from the Space Marine Codex that those chapters cannot have?

You can't do custom Chapters with the Angels. Hell you're actively punished choosing a successor.

pm713 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

IMO special characters should also work this way.

Yes!

That sounds like it just removes the special part of special characters.

Good. Because in my opinion most 40k characters have become far too special. I'm fed up with the entire universe revolving around a small pool of characters, 90% of which are either Mary Sues protected with Imperium-Grade Plot Armour or else Immortal Incompetents who get killed every time they appear yet never actually die.

I'm also fed up with Special Characters being black holes that suck up all the flavourful rules, weapons and wargear. So most regular HQs have had their options stripped to the bone, yet Special Characters won't even do their trousers up unless the belt buckle is the Anointed Belt Buckle of St. Lucius, Thrice Blessed by the Emperor and used to Discipline 10000 Naughty Children of the Imperium. Or, in the case of Space Wolves, The Wolf-Tooth Belt-Buckle of Fenrir McWolfenson, Grand Hellfrostwolf of the Lupine Pack, which Grants its User the Power and Spirit of the Mightiest and Wolfiest Wolf to ever Wolf.

I've been thinking, since reading this thread, that maybe the codexes should be ring binder folder bound. You buy the intial codex pack, which has pages for everything you would normally find in a codex, and expansions, which have the pages you would normally find in an expansion. But you can combine them in the folder however you like. Want a gaming codex just put in the Datasheets and rules you need. When they release updated rules, lets say in a Psychic Awakening type book (which would also be ring binder bound) you just replace the sheets in your "codex" binder. New unit gets released here's a sheet (available for small change, and will be in the codex package next print) to add to your "codex" binder. This way you can customise your book to have the rules you need without carrying multiple volumes with things you do not need. Not sure what to do with ebook rules though.

Blood Angels (Blood Angels player here) and Dark Angels should also just be supplements to Adeptus Astartes Codex, IMHO. Not Custodes though they are not Astartes.

Just some thoughts.

 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

IMO special characters should also work this way.

Yes!

That sounds like it just removes the special part of special characters.

Good. Because in my opinion most 40k characters have become far too special. I'm fed up with the entire universe revolving around a small pool of characters, 90% of which are either Mary Sues protected with Imperium-Grade Plot Armour or else Immortal Incompetents who get killed every time they appear yet never actually die.

I'm also fed up with Special Characters being black holes that suck up all the flavourful rules, weapons and wargear. So most regular HQs have had their options stripped to the bone, yet Special Characters won't even do their trousers up unless the belt buckle is the Anointed Belt Buckle of St. Lucius, Thrice Blessed by the Emperor and used to Discipline 10000 Naughty Children of the Imperium. Or, in the case of Space Wolves, The Wolf-Tooth Belt-Buckle of Fenrir McWolfenson, Grand Hellfrostwolf of the Lupine Pack, which Grants its User the Power and Spirit of the Mightiest and Wolfiest Wolf to ever Wolf.

I agree with most of this. SC's can have a place, but when they crowd out so much in terms of game design space, and all basically have the same copy-pasta 1-dimensional cardboard cutout background (particularly among the Imperial factions), it gets old, and makes for substantially less varied and interesting armies in the long run when they become the cornerstones of so many lists.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
An analogy should, well, be analogous.

Obviously. Not "exactly the same". Just "similar in the way that matter for this specific comparison".

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
A faction from a chapter plays on its own

lolwhat?
A faction from a chapter? What do you mean? Like a company? Companies have never been a thing you build your army around, except for Dark Angels for some reason, and even for them, the default is "soup". Even for the DA it's only two of the 10 companies that are somehow special, for the 8 others it's never been a relevant thing.
What's next? Each space marine squad should be considered a different faction maybe? "I'm playing soup, I am using 5 different units, from across 3 different companies!!"

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I play Dark Angels, which I guess is your "pre-made character?" There are many ways to build a force from that Chapter.

Yeah, and you can play a pre-generated characters in different way. Prepare different spells. Make different decisions during roleplay. Make different decisions upon leveling. It's still someone else who decided what your character and his backstory was, and the basics of your gameplay. Just like it's someone else who decided the lore and color scheme of the Dark Angels, and what their Chapter Tactics were.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

IMO special characters should also work this way.

Yes!

That sounds like it just removes the special part of special characters.

Good. Because in my opinion most 40k characters have become far too special. I'm fed up with the entire universe revolving around a small pool of characters, 90% of which are either Mary Sues protected with Imperium-Grade Plot Armour or else Immortal Incompetents who get killed every time they appear yet never actually die.

I'm also fed up with Special Characters being black holes that suck up all the flavourful rules, weapons and wargear. So most regular HQs have had their options stripped to the bone, yet Special Characters won't even do their trousers up unless the belt buckle is the Anointed Belt Buckle of St. Lucius, Thrice Blessed by the Emperor and used to Discipline 10000 Naughty Children of the Imperium. Or, in the case of Space Wolves, The Wolf-Tooth Belt-Buckle of Fenrir McWolfenson, Grand Hellfrostwolf of the Lupine Pack, which Grants its User the Power and Spirit of the Mightiest and Wolfiest Wolf to ever Wolf.

I agree with most of this. SC's can have a place, but when they crowd out so much in terms of game design space, and all basically have the same copy-pasta 1-dimensional cardboard cutout background (particularly among the Imperial factions), it gets old, and makes for substantially less varied and interesting armies in the long run when they become the cornerstones of so many lists.

Yes! again

Hybrid,

I will not keep quote-boxing to keep the thread manageable. I am still trying to understand your position. The Dark Angels are a faction. They are tool box and you can make a range of armies out of that tool box. As a faction they stand on their own (unless they want to soup I suppose). A faction/chapter is completely different from a character in an RPG because a faction stands on its own. A character is part of a party and not intended to stand on its own (well, in most RPGs anyway).

What is it about the Dark Angels having a Codex that bothers you? Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems and characters without losing access to other things?

Cheers,

T2B

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Hybrid,

I will not keep quote-boxing to keep the thread manageable. I am still trying to understand your position. The Dark Angels are a faction. They are tool box and you can make a range of armies out of that tool box. As a faction they stand on their own (unless they want to soup I suppose). A faction/chapter is completely different from a character in an RPG because a faction stands on its own. A character is part of a party and not intended to stand on its own (well, in most RPGs anyway).

What is it about the Dark Angels having a Codex that bothers you? Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems and characters without losing access to other things?

Cheers,

T2B

Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems, and characters without losing access to other things? Because you got pretty much the entire Space Marine kit and caboodle with your PA book.

And to me, it seems there's really only two tenable positions.

1) Consolidate. All Marines in one book. All Guard in one book. All [FACTION] in one book.

2) Give everyone the Space Marine treatment. Orks get new books for Deathskulls, Freebootas, Evil Suns, all that. Same for Guard. Same for Eldar, and Dark Eldar, and Harlequins. Same for Tau.

I don't see how anyone can reasonably hold the position that Space Marines and Space Marines alone deserve all that.

TangoTwoBravo,

I don't understand why the "stand on one's own" is relevant to my comparison. For me the part that matters is "You can make your own, or use one that was made for you".

I don't play marines, but if I have to give one concrete example: why should having bikers veterans be linked to being a dark angels? Having "biker veterans" as a trait you can select would allow white scars, and customs chapters, to have access to them. And if you want to say "Why don't you just play the custom chapter as a dark angel then?", well, if you do it means the custom chapter lose access to having for instance "bestial" marines (mutated marines in a similar vein to the wulfen, the death company or the dragon's claw. Lots of chapters have similar units).

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

What is it about the Dark Angels having a Codex that bothers you? Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems and characters without losing access to other things?

I'll toss my worthless $0.02 on this. My issue is that they're ostensibly a codex adherent chapter, always were, and originally largely were simply differentiated by how they deployed their Bike and Terminator en-masse routinely (as opposed to only rarely doing so with other Chapters) with a slight preference for plasma weaponry, instead of actually being anything particularly unique, and over time that's somehow became defined by superbiker plasma-fetishists with Knighty-Big-Terminators to justify their existence as a separate faction.

Simultaneously, it's also made making a more typical or representative Codex-adherent force for the Dark Angels typically rather pointless, the book might as well be "Codex: Ravenwing/Deathwing" instead of "Codex: Dark Angels", as (for the past several editions) the DA book wasn't really set up to support such lists as well as the basic SM codex, or needed some gimmick like the Standard of Devastation to make people even look at playing anything that wasn't Dark/Raven wing.

It's essentially an entire "faction" centered around a couple of internal small sub-organizations of a niche sub-group of an actual fully fledged faction (Space Marines), like making a codex specifically for the Cadian 4037th's Fire Support Company (but still called "Codex: Cadian 4037th Regiment"). This is to say nothing of original root faction already being one of the smallest fighting forces in the setting, and, again, the Dark Angels still ostensibly being codex-adherent.

At the scale 40k plays at as a game, and with the breadth of other factions around, it's really hard to see a DA specific book as anything but a pet project or a perpetual beneficiary of game design inertia.

EDIT: quote format issues.

 JNAProductions wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Hybrid,

I will not keep quote-boxing to keep the thread manageable. I am still trying to understand your position. The Dark Angels are a faction. They are tool box and you can make a range of armies out of that tool box. As a faction they stand on their own (unless they want to soup I suppose). A faction/chapter is completely different from a character in an RPG because a faction stands on its own. A character is part of a party and not intended to stand on its own (well, in most RPGs anyway).

What is it about the Dark Angels having a Codex that bothers you? Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems and characters without losing access to other things?

Cheers,

T2B

Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems, and characters without losing access to other things? Because you got pretty much the entire Space Marine kit and caboodle with your PA book.

And to me, it seems there's really only two tenable positions.

1) Consolidate. All Marines in one book. All Guard in one book. All [FACTION] in one book.

2) Give everyone the Space Marine treatment. Orks get new books for Deathskulls, Freebootas, Evil Suns, all that. Same for Guard. Same for Eldar, and Dark Eldar, and Harlequins. Same for Tau.

I don't see how anyone can reasonably hold the position that Space Marines and Space Marines alone deserve all that.

JNA,

By playing Dark Angels I gain access to unique units but lose access to others (Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, Vanguard Vets etc). I get something but I lose something. The game gains some diversity with an additional faction but with low opportunity cost.

The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves have a long history in the game of having their own books. Others have come and gone. They have a popularity that makes it worthwhile for GW to invest in them. I don't know if that could be said for a Deathskulls book. The marketplace will ultimately decide - and its been doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
TangoTwoBravo,

I don't understand why the "stand on one's own" is relevant to my comparison. For me the part that matters is "You can make your own, or use one that was made for you".

I don't play marines, but if I have to give one concrete example: why should having bikers veterans be linked to being a dark angels? Having "biker veterans" as a trait you can select would allow white scars, and customs chapters, to have access to them. And if you want to say "Why don't you just play the custom chapter as a dark angel then?", well, if you do it means the custom chapter lose access to having for instance "bestial" marines (mutated marines in a similar vein to the wulfen, the death company or the dragon's claw. Lots of chapters have similar units).

We do not have a unit called biker veterans. We do have Ravenwing Black Knights which are one of our distinctive units. We have Ravenwing Bike Squads who get Jink and access to some Stratagems. The Ravenwing are kind of a big part of the Dark Angels thing and have been so since the game took shape. I don't see a problem with this: the Ravenwing are well established lore. The White Scars do bikes well, and anybody can take bikes.

My whole point is that its good to have to make meaningful choices. You want Ravenwing Black Knights? Great! You don't get Thunderfire Cannons. Its a choice, leading to greater diversity on the tabletop based on something other than points.

You can make a custom chapter from the mainline Space Marines book. Its true that you lose out of some of the distinct units of the non-Codex compliant Chapters. It's the point. The Dark Angels are their own faction. You don't have to like it and you don't have to buy them. If you really want their units then you are absolutely able to pick up their Codex and play with them. As a Dark Angel. Or a Space Wolf etc.

 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Precisely. In pen & paper RPG, you can decide you want to play the pre-rolled characters from the book. But that shouldn't be the default mode, and there should never, ever be any rules that are specific to them, that player-made characters cannot match. Same for 40k, really.
The subfaction system, if there is one, should be all about letting you create your own chapter, and named chapters should just be pre-rolled chapters.
"If you want to play Ultramarine, then use subtrait X and subtrait Y"

IMO special characters should also work this way.

Yes!

That sounds like it just removes the special part of special characters.

Good. Because in my opinion most 40k characters have become far too special. I'm fed up with the entire universe revolving around a small pool of characters, 90% of which are either Mary Sues protected with Imperium-Grade Plot Armour or else Immortal Incompetents who get killed every time they appear yet never actually die.

I'm also fed up with Special Characters being black holes that suck up all the flavourful rules, weapons and wargear. So most regular HQs have had their options stripped to the bone, yet Special Characters won't even do their trousers up unless the belt buckle is the Anointed Belt Buckle of St. Lucius, Thrice Blessed by the Emperor and used to Discipline 10000 Naughty Children of the Imperium. Or, in the case of Space Wolves, The Wolf-Tooth Belt-Buckle of Fenrir McWolfenson, Grand Hellfrostwolf of the Lupine Pack, which Grants its User the Power and Spirit of the Mightiest and Wolfiest Wolf to ever Wolf.

Which is why Relics should be paid pieces of wargear and characters can take as many as they're allowed to take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Hybrid,

I will not keep quote-boxing to keep the thread manageable. I am still trying to understand your position. The Dark Angels are a faction. They are tool box and you can make a range of armies out of that tool box. As a faction they stand on their own (unless they want to soup I suppose). A faction/chapter is completely different from a character in an RPG because a faction stands on its own. A character is part of a party and not intended to stand on its own (well, in most RPGs anyway).

What is it about the Dark Angels having a Codex that bothers you? Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems and characters without losing access to other things?

Cheers,

T2B

Do you want access to their unique units, stratagems, and characters without losing access to other things? Because you got pretty much the entire Space Marine kit and caboodle with your PA book.

And to me, it seems there's really only two tenable positions.

1) Consolidate. All Marines in one book. All Guard in one book. All [FACTION] in one book.

2) Give everyone the Space Marine treatment. Orks get new books for Deathskulls, Freebootas, Evil Suns, all that. Same for Guard. Same for Eldar, and Dark Eldar, and Harlequins. Same for Tau.

I don't see how anyone can reasonably hold the position that Space Marines and Space Marines alone deserve all that.

JNA,

By playing Dark Angels I gain access to unique units but lose access to others (Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, Vanguard Vets etc). I get something but I lose something. The game gains some diversity with an additional faction but with low opportunity cost.

The Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves have a long history in the game of having their own books. Others have come and gone. They have a popularity that makes it worthwhile for GW to invest in them. I don't know if that could be said for a Deathskulls book. The marketplace will ultimately decide - and its been doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
TangoTwoBravo,

I don't understand why the "stand on one's own" is relevant to my comparison. For me the part that matters is "You can make your own, or use one that was made for you".

I don't play marines, but if I have to give one concrete example: why should having bikers veterans be linked to being a dark angels? Having "biker veterans" as a trait you can select would allow white scars, and customs chapters, to have access to them. And if you want to say "Why don't you just play the custom chapter as a dark angel then?", well, if you do it means the custom chapter lose access to having for instance "bestial" marines (mutated marines in a similar vein to the wulfen, the death company or the dragon's claw. Lots of chapters have similar units).

We do not have a unit called biker veterans. We do have Ravenwing Black Knights which are one of our distinctive units. We have Ravenwing Bike Squads who get Jink and access to some Stratagems. The Ravenwing are kind of a big part of the Dark Angels thing and have been so since the game took shape. I don't see a problem with this: the Ravenwing are well established lore. The White Scars do bikes well, and anybody can take bikes.

My whole point is that its good to have to make meaningful choices. You want Ravenwing Black Knights? Great! You don't get Thunderfire Cannons. Its a choice, leading to greater diversity on the tabletop based on something other than points.

You can make a custom chapter from the mainline Space Marines book. Its true that you lose out of some of the distinct units of the non-Codex compliant Chapters. It's the point. The Dark Angels are their own faction. You don't have to like it and you don't have to buy them. If you really want their units then you are absolutely able to pick up their Codex and play with them. As a Dark Angel. Or a Space Wolf etc.

It's all arbitrary though. Why don't Dark Angels or ANY of their Successors get TFCs? Why can they not use the Chapter Master Stratagem if Azrael isn't in their army?

It's forced differences to try and convince you that they're a different faction when in reality they aren't and they're just trying to convince you that everyone needs a bunch of codices.

gods i hate trying to quote something from my phone....