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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




If we eliminated premeasuring of any kind, that might marginally help. But as it is, anyone can measure out a unit's movement, then 12.5" beyond that. Or place sacrificial units in front of real units such that even with fight twice strat, the good unit can't be trapped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
You are seriously insane if you think any of that works in practice. You will never get your guardsmen anywhere near a leviathan normally. CQC units go to the center of the board and then die. Full stop.

That's your reliance on pure infantry lists. Space marines don't hold the center with cc troops, they use cc dreadnoughts. Get a fething contemptor already.

And agreed with NotOnline!!. Csm have no trouble clearing screens. Though mine usually take plasma or chaincannons for extra oomph.


Top BA lists don't.

Which? The dreadnoughts or clearing screens? And who cares what other people do. It's apparently not working for you, at least according to you, but I suspect you do better than you say here. If what you're doing isn't working try something new.

Ach! Stop editing your posts after I respond. That's why I said get a Contemptor, they have invuls, and since you play loyalists fnp if you take the relic version.


I hate relic dreadnoughts. They should be legends, imo. I haven't seen one in any successful BA lists, either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/17 23:35:59


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 catbarf wrote:
So, here's my hot take: I contend that there is nothing you can do to the melee rules that will make footslogging melee units viable without otherwise breaking the game. You have to reduce the lethality of shooting to give melee units a chance to get up the board, and restrict units from being able to move, shoot at max range, and charge all in the same turn to give assault-oriented units a real reason to exist. The various solutions that make melee more lethal (eg free hits when enemies try to fall back) are just compounding the game's general lethality problem.

Yeah, you're probably right on spot with that. I miss the times when I spend two turns setting up a Waaagh! which resulted in a huge multi-assault in turn 3 when the orks from the transports were joined by the ones which had to slog it because theirs got blow up.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




" removing the can't shoot after falling back penalty "

How about we remove fall back instead? That way, tripointing is gone, too.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Martel732 wrote:If we eliminated premeasuring of any kind, that might marginally help. But as it is, anyone can measure out a unit's movement, then 12.5" beyond that. Or place sacrificial units in front of real units such that even with fight twice strat, the good unit can't be trapped.


Personally I am very glad guessing ranges is gone from the game- thanks to a previous job I can guess ranges between 8" and 24" pretty reliably, and I don't feel that that ability should be relevant to my generalship in a game. It also encourages various exploits to determine ranges.

Martel732 wrote:" removing the can't shoot after falling back penalty "

How about we remove fall back instead? That way, tripointing is gone, too.


I would say that removing fall back altogether would be really unfair for some units (eg vehicles) and still, as I said on the last page, not really address the root of the problem. You'd still need to rely on deep strike or T1 charge shenanigans to make melee work, it'd just be marginally more useful once it got there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/18 01:07:46


 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Martel732 wrote:
I hate relic dreadnoughts. They should be legends, imo. I haven't seen one in any successful BA lists, either.

So you don't use 1/3rd of the rolls you're entitled to, don't use certain units on principle, don't use the rules that do exist to full potential (i.e. tripointing) yet you come here to complain that your army sucks... Try playing with the full set of rules and units at your disposal before making your next WAAAHHHH! BA suck post.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Martel732 wrote:
I hate relic dreadnoughts. They should be legends, imo. I haven't seen one in any successful BA lists, either.

Then use the non-relic version. It's plastic, and last I checked was in the codex, so no fw.

And stop just copying other people. You're smart, think for yourself.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Bullgryn, Talos, Grotesques, Canoptek Wraiths and Plaguebearers are all pretty good and are tankier than they are killy, Bullgryn and Plaguebearers are slow. There is no guarantee whether a unit is good or bad based on which attributes it does or does not have, high mobility, high damage, high survivability, it's all relative to the pts cost. Non-shooty transports being pretty bad this edition hurts for a lot of melee units.
 catbarf wrote:
Martel732 wrote:If we eliminated premeasuring of any kind, that might marginally help. But as it is, anyone can measure out a unit's movement, then 12.5" beyond that. Or place sacrificial units in front of real units such that even with fight twice strat, the good unit can't be trapped.


Personally I am very glad guessing ranges is gone from the game- thanks to a previous job I can guess ranges between 8" and 24" pretty reliably, and I don't feel that that ability should be relevant to my generalship in a game. It also encourages various exploits to determine ranges.

My buddies and I were encouraged to do exploits when we first started, some of the people that taught us were pretty shady. Baking dice in blood, measuring your arm to judge distances on the battlefield better, general munchkinnery. I'm glad all that stuff is gone, I'd love to see the terrain rules amended to remove the munchkin strategies that hurt melee more OP shooting does.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
" removing the can't shoot after falling back penalty "

How about we remove fall back instead? That way, tripointing is gone, too.


While I'm no fan of Fall Back in general I don't think you can remove it with the game in its current state. So many units are so ridiculously fast now that removing Fall Back would turn the game into a mad rush to engage anything in close combat with anything to pin them in place. Previously this wasn't a major problem because nothing moved more than 12" in a turn so it always took an absolute minimum of 2 turns to get into combat and it was easier for an opponent to prevent simply by moving away. Now we have units zooming 20"+ in one turn and still charging 2D6 on top of that so Fall Back is a necessary evil IMO. That's why earlier in this thread I said what we need to make close combat specialists viable is a complete rework of the game (which is just unlikely to happen at this point) to reduce both mobility and lethality.

Since that isn't happening I do think there should either be a greater penalty for units that Fall Back or maybe some kind of protection for the units that they were engaged with.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






If you allow unit to get free attacks against units falling back, combat specialist would look much less like idiots.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I still think successfully falling back should be based on a roll off taking movement into account. A terminator squad that moves 5 should have a hard time falling back from a unit of howling banshees that move 8, or jump troops that move 12. The reverse should also apply.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Another important factor, imo, is that units like terminators are no longer as durable.

Terminators used to be pretty much invulnerable to small arms fire, and using a power sword was a risky but worthwhile idea to face a termie.

Now, they have inflated shooting lethality to the point that this is no longer the case.

Shooting things is too cost effective IMHO.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Bolters wounded terminators on 4+ and you failed 1 of each 6 rolls for a death terminator. How was that being inmune to small arms fire.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 Galas wrote:
Bolters wounded terminators on 4+ and you failed 1 of each 6 rolls for a death terminator. How was that being inmune to small arms fire.

Some people view Intercessors with AP-2 as the new standard, which isn't too far off, Intercessors are the most popular model in tournaments I believe.
   
Made in de
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator





Grey40k wrote:
Another important factor, imo, is that units like terminators are no longer as durable.

Terminators used to be pretty much invulnerable to small arms fire, and using a power sword was a risky but worthwhile idea to face a termie.

Now, they have inflated shooting lethality to the point that this is no longer the case.

Shooting things is too cost effective IMHO.


With "now" you mean like... 5th Edition? With their 2nd wound and being able to benefit from cover Terminators have actually become more durable against small arms. Everything dies faster due to more firepower, but Terminators not more than other units. Hordes die slower since overrunning is gone and their Armour save is not ignored by anything but a lasrifle anymore. Also tanks have become more durable compared to 6th and 7th where they died to plasmaguns and Autocannons.

But overall it's hard to make out single units and say, this unit is now easier to kill. I'd go so far as to say Terminators aren't as overpriced anymore since they got their second wound, cheap CC weapons and with hateful Assault even some hitting power
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Jidmah wrote:
If you allow unit to get free attacks against units falling back, combat specialist would look much less like idiots.


That would do nothing. Gunlines WANT their units wiped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I hate relic dreadnoughts. They should be legends, imo. I haven't seen one in any successful BA lists, either.

Then use the non-relic version. It's plastic, and last I checked was in the codex, so no fw.

And stop just copying other people. You're smart, think for yourself.


I'm also skewing my list. I just don't see BA vehicles as being worth the effort at this point. They are just target practice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/18 18:44:41


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
Bolters wounded terminators on 4+ and you failed 1 of each 6 rolls for a death terminator. How was that being inmune to small arms fire.


Suppose we are talking about the edition you seem to be referring to:

2+ t4 against s4 ap0 1d (standard bolter back then)
(3/6)*(1/6)=0.08333333 to kill per shot landed.

Now you can pick stalker bolters and shoot them (s4 ap2 2d)
(3/6)*(3/6)=0.25 to kill per shot landed.

So really, far more efficient (3 times better) to dispose of termies shooting them with common troops nowadays.

Immune refers to the relative cost effectiveness; there is nothing immune in this game obviously.

EDIT: BS has not changed, so I skipped it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/18 19:07:41


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Canadian 5th wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I hate relic dreadnoughts. They should be legends, imo. I haven't seen one in any successful BA lists, either.

So you don't use 1/3rd of the rolls you're entitled to, don't use certain units on principle, don't use the rules that do exist to full potential (i.e. tripointing) yet you come here to complain that your army sucks... Try playing with the full set of rules and units at your disposal before making your next WAAAHHHH! BA suck post.


They don't suck. I hate how they work.
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

Martel732 wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I hate relic dreadnoughts. They should be legends, imo. I haven't seen one in any successful BA lists, either.

So you don't use 1/3rd of the rolls you're entitled to, don't use certain units on principle, don't use the rules that do exist to full potential (i.e. tripointing) yet you come here to complain that your army sucks... Try playing with the full set of rules and units at your disposal before making your next WAAAHHHH! BA suck post.


They don't suck. I hate how they work.

Then sell them and buy a new army or get into a game you actually enjoy.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Grey40k wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Bolters wounded terminators on 4+ and you failed 1 of each 6 rolls for a death terminator. How was that being inmune to small arms fire.


Suppose we are talking about the edition you seem to be referring to:

2+ t4 against s4 ap0 1d (standard bolter back then)
(3/6)*(1/6)=0.08333333 to kill per shot landed.

Now you can pick stalker bolters and shoot them (s4 ap2 2d)
(3/6)*(3/6)=0.25 to kill per shot landed.

So really, far more efficient (3 times better) to dispose of termies shooting them with common troops nowadays.

Immune refers to the relative cost effectiveness; there is nothing immune in this game obviously.

EDIT: BS has not changed, so I skipped it.


Yeah if you compare a worse gun agaisnt a much better gun with a profile made exactly to counter them then ok.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/18 19:57:00


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




My main point is that it's NOT a "charge meta".
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Martel732 wrote:My main point is that it's NOT a "charge meta".

Yeah, I'd say "alpha strike meta" would be more appropriate, as shooting is just as, if not more (actually I'd definitely say more), deadly.

Galas wrote:
Grey40k wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Bolters wounded terminators on 4+ and you failed 1 of each 6 rolls for a death terminator. How was that being inmune to small arms fire.


Suppose we are talking about the edition you seem to be referring to:

2+ t4 against s4 ap0 1d (standard bolter back then)
(3/6)*(1/6)=0.08333333 to kill per shot landed.

Now you can pick stalker bolters and shoot them (s4 ap2 2d)
(3/6)*(3/6)=0.25 to kill per shot landed.

So really, far more efficient (3 times better) to dispose of termies shooting them with common troops nowadays.

Immune refers to the relative cost effectiveness; there is nothing immune in this game obviously.

EDIT: BS has not changed, so I skipped it.


Yeah if you compare a worse gun agaisnt a much better gun with a profile made exactly to counter them then ok.

Ok, so comparing to 5th? Terminators are more resilient to things like bolters because they have the same save but an extra wound: the same against anti tank weapons like las cannons, plasma, and multi meltas because they still take that on a 5++ : and less resilient against things like the aforementioned stalker pattern bolters because 8th edition ap-2 works out to ap3 in older editions in which case they'd still get their 2+ save but now get a 4+. So better against basic infantry weapons, same against heavy anti tank, and weaker against mid ap weapons.

Which makes no sense and proves the 8th edition ap system is fethed.

And I had to look at my 5th edition csm codex for this because I couldn't remember if terminators got a 5++ back then, so I hope you're happy (the horror, the horror).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/18 21:08:27


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




My point is that some very common picks (intercessors) with a very viable option (stalker) do extremely well against termies. That wasn't the case in other editions, and no I did not get my truly old edition book out, had to use a bit of memory.

All that to say that shooting lethality (read point efficiency) is up, and that perhaps that is also an important factor in the current state of melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, where are the old mechanics like "overrunning" a position, chasing, and so on? I don't recall the exact terms (it s been many years), but they truly made it feel more like actual cc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/18 22:13:22


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Terminators have always been trash, except for Chaos in some editions.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Martel732 wrote:
Terminators have always been trash, except for Chaos in some editions.

You mean the 3 man suicide squads
They were also trash if they faced an opponent that could screen.
It's 8th and the removal of overpriced powerweapon Obligation that makes csm Termis actually a consideration. That and purge or cacophony.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Grey40k wrote:
My point is that some very common picks (intercessors) with a very viable option (stalker) do extremely well against termies. That wasn't the case in other editions, and no I did not get my truly old edition book out, had to use a bit of memory.

All that to say that shooting lethality (read point efficiency) is up, and that perhaps that is also an important factor in the current state of melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, where are the old mechanics like "overrunning" a position, chasing, and so on? I don't recall the exact terms (it s been many years), but they truly made it feel more like actual cc.

Yes, shooting is considerably more points efficient than melee, but I still blame the terminator issue on the current ap/save system.

I think you're talking about sweeping advance. I think the logic of its removal was people didn't like having their units eliminated because they failed a morale check. Of course that just made falling back a no brainer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Terminators have always been trash, except for Chaos in some editions.

You mean the 3 man suicide squads
They were also trash if they faced an opponent that could screen.
It's 8th and the removal of overpriced powerweapon Obligation that makes csm Termis actually a consideration. That and purge or cacophony.

Yup, though I'd add "prey on the weak" to that equation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/18 22:33:38


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So better against basic infantry weapons, same against heavy anti tank, and weaker against mid ap weapons.

Which makes no sense and proves the 8th edition ap system is fethed.


That... makes perfect sense to me? It used to be that everything was crap against Terminators until you hit the magic AP2 threshold and suddenly you one-shot them; now there's a more natural/realistic progression of increasing lethality.

Also let's not ignore that the extra wound means they're just as tough against AP-1/D1 things like heavy bolters as before, so it's only against AP-2 or AP-1/D2 weapons that they're actually weaker than before (even then, tempered a bit by S6/S7 wounding them on 3s rather than 2s like it used to), and against AP0 they're twice as durable. It's really just oddball power-creep stuff like stalker bolt rifles (AP-2 on a basic rifle is ridiculous) that slaughter them.

I generally don't buy the argument that the new AP system is a significant contributor to game lethality. Marines now get saves against guns that used to kill them outright (eg plasma), and lots more ways to get invulnerable or FNP saves, while anything with a 5+ or 6+ save is now substantially more durable. The only weapons to get substantially more powerful are mid-level heavy weapons like heavy bolters and autocannons, which now actually are worth taking in a MEQ-dominated game. Plus, army-wide FNPs are all over the place, as are penalties to hit.

By and large, it's the combination of re-rolls everywhere, shoot-twice abilities, power-creep weapons, and things like Bolter Discipline and Doctrines that have dramatically increased the effectiveness of fire, rather than the core changes to the damage/AP system.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/18 23:31:49


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 catbarf wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So better against basic infantry weapons, same against heavy anti tank, and weaker against mid ap weapons.

Which makes no sense and proves the 8th edition ap system is fethed.


That... makes perfect sense to me? It used to be that everything was crap against Terminators until you hit the magic AP2 threshold and suddenly you one-shot them; now there's a more natural/realistic progression of increasing lethality.

Also let's not ignore that the extra wound means they're just as tough against AP-1/D1 things like heavy bolters as before, so it's only against AP-2 or AP-1/D2 weapons that they're actually weaker than before (even then, tempered a bit by S6/S7 wounding them on 3s rather than 2s like it used to), and against AP0 they're twice as durable. It's really just oddball power-creep stuff like stalker bolt rifles (AP-2 on a basic rifle is ridiculous) that slaughter them.

I generally don't buy the argument that the new AP system is a significant contributor to game lethality. Marines now get saves against guns that used to kill them outright (eg plasma), and lots more ways to get invulnerable or FNP saves, while anything with a 5+ or 6+ save is now substantially more durable. The only weapons to get substantially more powerful are mid-level heavy weapons like heavy bolters and autocannons, which now actually are worth taking in a MEQ-dominated game. Plus, army-wide FNPs are all over the place, as are penalties to hit.

By and large, it's the combination of re-rolls everywhere, shoot-twice abilities, power-creep weapons, and things like Bolter Discipline and Doctrines that have dramatically increased the effectiveness of fire, rather than the core changes to the damage/AP system.

Yeah, I guess you're right, it does make sense. I just kind of preferred when anything less than ap2 pretty much bounced off. Guess I was seeing the past through rose colored glasses.

Definitely agree on stalker pattern bolters, a standard infantry rifle with ap-2 and damage 2 is ridiculous. Same for rerolls, doctrines, etc.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




But AP -1 being the biggest swing makes no sense at all.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Martel732 wrote:
But AP -1 being the biggest swing makes no sense at all.

It isn't ap-1 so much as that it can be spammed so efficiently now thanks to doctrines. The way to kill terminators was always massed fire. Make someone roll enough saves and a few 1s will turn up. Now massed space marine fire is just looking for 2s. Letting them ignore -1 and -2ap would make them as tough as before, but most likely at added ppm, and spamming massed cheap shots would still be the way to eliminate them.

So *shrug*.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Gadzilla666 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So better against basic infantry weapons, same against heavy anti tank, and weaker against mid ap weapons.

Which makes no sense and proves the 8th edition ap system is fethed.


That... makes perfect sense to me? It used to be that everything was crap against Terminators until you hit the magic AP2 threshold and suddenly you one-shot them; now there's a more natural/realistic progression of increasing lethality.

Also let's not ignore that the extra wound means they're just as tough against AP-1/D1 things like heavy bolters as before, so it's only against AP-2 or AP-1/D2 weapons that they're actually weaker than before (even then, tempered a bit by S6/S7 wounding them on 3s rather than 2s like it used to), and against AP0 they're twice as durable. It's really just oddball power-creep stuff like stalker bolt rifles (AP-2 on a basic rifle is ridiculous) that slaughter them.

I generally don't buy the argument that the new AP system is a significant contributor to game lethality. Marines now get saves against guns that used to kill them outright (eg plasma), and lots more ways to get invulnerable or FNP saves, while anything with a 5+ or 6+ save is now substantially more durable. The only weapons to get substantially more powerful are mid-level heavy weapons like heavy bolters and autocannons, which now actually are worth taking in a MEQ-dominated game. Plus, army-wide FNPs are all over the place, as are penalties to hit.

By and large, it's the combination of re-rolls everywhere, shoot-twice abilities, power-creep weapons, and things like Bolter Discipline and Doctrines that have dramatically increased the effectiveness of fire, rather than the core changes to the damage/AP system.

Yeah, I guess you're right, it does make sense. I just kind of preferred when anything less than ap2 pretty much bounced off. Guess I was seeing the past through rose colored glasses.

Definitely agree on stalker pattern bolters, a standard infantry rifle with ap-2 and damage 2 is ridiculous. Same for rerolls, doctrines, etc.



The AP-2 standard infantry is seriously a problem, yeah. It shouldn't have been done. But I have a lot of thoughts about that for another time.


Anyway, I definitely think the only AP system was better.

The new AP and cover system combined specifically advantages armor save 3+ models most, but hurts armor save 2+ models. If you're a tactical marine or sister or immortal, you're tougher than you were before, appreciably so. The wound chart works in your favor, and so does the AP conversion.
However, if you are a Terminator, you got the short end of the stick. At no level of AP did you get any better than you would have been in the past, but for the very common AP2 weapons like missile launchers and battle cannons [and the also very common AP1 weapons like Heavy Bolters and Assault cannons], your resilience halved or worse.

The new AP system also advantages 5+ save models a bunch, though they don't benefit from the cover as much.
   
 
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