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2020/04/25 17:09:25
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Apparently it needs to be repeated every few posts so we don’t get buried under arguments like whether Ahriman can beat Tigurius in a winner takes all rock-paper-scissors match .
Iron within, Iron without
2020/04/25 17:15:54
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Apparently it needs to be repeated every few posts so we don’t get buried under arguments like whether Ahriman can beat Tigurius in a winner takes all rock-paper-scissors match .
TONIGHT ON PAY PER VIEW!!!
NO HOLDS BARRED!!!
2020/04/26 00:02:05
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
What are you using to measure "pure combat ability"?
Is it overall ability to take on other Legionnaires in a no-holds-barred fight?
If so then it would be whoever the most powerful and versatile psyker is. Probably Ahriman. Even before falling to chaos, Chaos sorcerers such as Phosis T'kar and Haathor Maat could kill several Custodians at a time in the battle of Prospero with a single attack. Ahriman was the most powerful adept of the Thousand Sons then and has only grown more powerful in the ensuing ten thousand years, to the point where he can pull Yvraine, the Visarch, and the Yncarne out of the Webway and could have easily destroyed them.
The more powerful Psykers can only be fought by sheer weight of numbers (and even that might not work), another psyker, or specific anti-psyker countermeasures in a direct fight.
If all Warp-related nonsense is banned, probably Sigismund. Most literature would seem to indicate he is the most formidable overall, to the point that Abaddon just barely beat an old washed up Sigismund, despite Abaddon himself also being singled out as one of the mightiest of the Astartes at the time.
2020/04/26 09:36:58
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
As noted before though Sevatar fought Sigsmund to a draw that ended with Sevatar winning by breaking the rules of the duel. As for the Abbadon fight, the witnesses suggested that the fight with Sigsmund would have ended with a mutual kill if both were fighting at their peak. Abbadon has also only grown more powerful since then too.
For the record I’m taking Tigurius in the Rock Paper Scissors match. Ahriman has the drawback that he’s Tzeetch’s favorite punching bag.
Iron within, Iron without
2020/04/26 13:29:22
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Maybe we could have some matchups between characters one on one on a regular tabletop with terrain.
I mean sure, we put kharn against say Mephiston in close combat and kharn is likely to win. Make the betrayer cross a couple feet of open ground where Mephiston gets to hit him with a couple psychic powers before he gets into melee and it could be different.
BTW I'm surprised no one has done this yet:
"It has reached my, Cato Sicarious', ears that some have said that I, cato sicarius, may be the greatest adeptus astartes warrior of my,, cato sicarius', time. While I, cato sicarius, cannot say this claim is true my, cato sicarious', respect for my, cato sicarius', peers forbids me, cato sicarius, from saying that are wrong about my, cato sicarius', possibly unrivaled combat prowess."
I mean, cone on, that was just so obvious.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/04/26 17:03:22
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
2020/04/26 13:59:57
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
The tabletop is a bad metric to use because under that logic, a rando blood angels captain with a storm shield and a thunder hammer is the ultimate astartes. Some concepts just don’t translate from fiction to the game. For that matter several character don’t have 8th Ed rules. From that duel perspective Ahriman on a Disk would be hard to beat since he’d extremely maneuverable and throwing out a bunch of mortal wounds.
For a truly wildcard choice, Lukas the trickster. He may lose the fight but whoever he’s fighting isn’t going to win either.
Iron within, Iron without
2020/04/26 14:01:32
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Smh. So basically no one is willing to put up *actual* feats of characters to back things up. Table top and lore are row different things. Lore is not limited to game mechanics or balancing.
Again Mephiston isn’t a regular marine, he’s way beyond that. For the people lucky enough to read the latest “Darkness in the Blood “ you know why.
Kharn would be hard pressed to beat him currently. We are talking a guy who basically a Demi-Primarch now. Unless you ignore a lot of stuff or use plot armor.
2020/04/27 06:30:44
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Umbras wrote: Smh. So basically no one is willing to put up *actual* feats of characters to back things up. Table top and lore are row different things. Lore is not limited to game mechanics or balancing.
Again Mephiston isn’t a regular marine, he’s way beyond that. For the people lucky enough to read the latest “Darkness in the Blood “ you know why.
Kharn would be hard pressed to beat him currently. We are talking a guy who basically a Demi-Primarch now. Unless you ignore a lot of stuff or use plot armor.
What Mephiston feat compares to Ahriman plucking Yvraine, the Visarch, and the Yncarne out of the Webway and holding them at his mercy with no effort?
2020/04/27 07:58:59
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Feats: Singlehandedly held off an entire horde of Orks in close combat. Impressed the Orks (!) so much they built a shrine in his honour and started worshipping him as a minor Ork deity or aspect/Avatar of Gork (or possibly Mork).
2020/04/27 10:03:19
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Feats: Singlehandedly held off an entire horde of Orks in close combat. Impressed the Orks (!) so much they built a shrine in his honour and started worshipping him as a minor Ork deity or aspect/Avatar of Gork (or possibly Mork).
Fighting a group is a very different skill set compared to fighting one on one, just ask Fezzik.
The OP is about pure combat ability. Is this in a “fair fight” one on one duel type, or no holds barred? Or ability to defeat superior numbers singlehanded? Or to lead an army against an opposing army?
Surely ultimate combat ability is determined with the Bruce Lee method. If you can win the fight without fighting at all? In which case my vote is Alpharius. No, not that one, the other Alpharius.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/27 10:04:02
2020/04/27 17:57:30
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Umbras wrote: Smh. So basically no one is willing to put up *actual* feats of characters to back things up. Table top and lore are row different things. Lore is not limited to game mechanics or balancing.
Again Mephiston isn’t a regular marine, he’s way beyond that. For the people lucky enough to read the latest “Darkness in the Blood “ you know why.
Kharn would be hard pressed to beat him currently. We are talking a guy who basically a Demi-Primarch now. Unless you ignore a lot of stuff or use plot armor.
What Mephiston feat compares to Ahriman plucking Yvraine, the Visarch, and the Yncarne out of the Webway and holding them at his mercy with no effort?
Facepalm.
That’s Combat? Are you telling the whole story and context? Yes his is from Gathering Storm, no? Where she actually was also toying with him? So you really using this for a combat feat? This isn’t combat. That’s was a spell and trickery, which Ahriman is the best!
Spoiler:
Again cannon wise, Mephiston IS actually a Demi-Primarch or something along those lines of Janus. He’s not even Mephiston anymore. This isn’t made up. This is shown in the Darkness in The Blood, with his direct connection to a Sanguinius (1/2 is his soul) and a freaking warp entity the Angel of Darkness, which was used to create Sanguinius. If he dies the entire BA and their blood line goes Black Rage. Right now he’s the venting system for the black rage of all he sons of Sanguinius. He has a power called the “gift”. Which is why He was turned Primaris
Before all of this. He choked M’kar to death with his bare hands. Has faced and defeated Doombreed in combat, facing Ka’Banda in the warp and not being killed, and standing up to him. Shielding a Thunderhawk flying in opposite direction, and wiping out a swarm, before turning around and catching the said thunder hawk. This was BEFORE the above.
Yeah Ahriman is very skilled, but raw power he’s cant top a guy who doesn’t have a limit, who is only getting more powerful with each use of his powers and still changing.
2020/04/30 18:49:41
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Yes Mephiston is very powerful, but there’s other examples of powerful psychic might. Tigurius “reads” the hive mind and Khayon the Black drags a strike cruiser through space with his mind for several months. Khayon even acknowledges that Ahriman is more powerful than him. You can hardly hand wave those away.
Even if Mephiston is at the Demi-Primarch level, we already have a contender who killed a Primarch clone; Abbadon. Meanwhile Sigsmund only narrowly lost to Abbadon after 1000+ years of aging. That’s before you think of guys like Kharn or Typhus who have their gods blessing.
No one is saying that Mephiston isn’t strong but it’s the height of fanboying if you think he would just stomp any of the astartes listed here. As far as disregarding plot armor, well if we did that all the characters would be dead just from spending 50+ years in constant combat.
Iron within, Iron without
2020/05/01 01:14:33
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
Yeah, I'd say ripping three of the most powerful individuals in the galaxy into a pocket dimension and having them at your mercy in the middle of a battle is combat.
Are you telling the whole story and context?
Ironic coming from you.
Yes his is from Gathering Storm, no? Where she actually was also toying with him?
Her ploy to show him she could reverse the Rubric is described as a "desperate ploy", she was helpless there. Why are you lying?
So you really using this for a combat feat? This isn’t combat. That’s was a spell and trickery, which Ahriman is the best!
He used his spell in the middle of combat with no prep work. Don't like it? Don't care. Learn to live with it.
Spoiler:
Again cannon wise, Mephiston IS actually a Demi-Primarch or something along those lines of Janus. He’s not even Mephiston anymore. This isn’t made up. This is shown in the Darkness in The Blood, with his direct connection to a Sanguinius (1/2 is his soul) and a freaking warp entity the Angel of Darkness, which was used to create Sanguinius. If he dies the entire BA and their blood line goes Black Rage. Right now he’s the venting system for the black rage of all he sons of Sanguinius. He has a power called the “gift”. Which is why He was turned Primaris
Go on.
Before all of this. He choked M’kar to death with his bare hands.
M'kar is a loser, unironically.
Has faced and defeated Doombreed in combat,
He barely banished him while Khorne forbid Doombreed from killing him.
facing Ka’Banda in the warp and not being killed, and standing up to him
What are you referencing here?
Yeah Ahriman is very skilled, but raw power he’s cant top a guy who doesn’t have a limit
LOL!
2020/05/01 01:21:46
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Yes Mephiston is very powerful, but there’s other examples of powerful psychic might. Tigurius “reads” the hive mind and Khayon the Black drags a strike cruiser through space with his mind for several months. Khayon even acknowledges that Ahriman is more powerful than him. You can hardly hand wave those away.
Even if Mephiston is at the Demi-Primarch level, we already have a contender who killed a Primarch clone; Abbadon. Meanwhile Sigsmund only narrowly lost to Abbadon after 1000+ years of aging. That’s before you think of guys like Kharn or Typhus who have their gods blessing.
No one is saying that Mephiston isn’t strong but it’s the height of fanboying if you think he would just stomp any of the astartes listed here. As far as disregarding plot armor, well if we did that all the characters would be dead just from spending 50+ years in constant combat.
Those feats are not *combat* feats. You are moving the goal post.
If you want to say Abandon great, I agree, Sigsmund, great. Kharn great. But mentioning feats that are not combats related isn’t off topic.
Khayon had real issues with Daravek. He literally had to plan things out, that was his style. He’s not the swordsman that Mephiston is (best BA). It’s not “fanboying” when you can bring up combat feats, but are refuted with something like reading the hive mind (which he also did is DOB) or dragging a strike cruiser in space. I’m not even mentioning those sort of feats because they have nothing to do with *pure combat* like beating doombreed or choking M’kar to death with his bare hands.
2020/05/01 07:23:11
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
You mentioned that no one could equal Mephiston in raw power. I gave examples that are very similar in raw power to show that you what he does is not outside the norm for very powerful psyker, but please go on about moving goal posts if it helps you feel better. Also Khayon struggled with Daravek because Daravek literally had a hold over his mind. Once that was gone, the fight was very one sided.
Also let’s not include M’kar as a feat. The only thing that gets kicked around more is the Avatar of Khaine.
Iron within, Iron without
2020/05/01 07:29:56
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
I think there is a rule somewhere that state he isn't allowed to be one because he is too dangerous. He did murder an entire band of Chaos Marines by his lonesome once.
2020/05/01 10:30:12
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
I think there is a rule somewhere that state he isn't allowed to be one because he is too dangerous. He did murder an entire band of Chaos Marines by his lonesome once.
It’s covered under the breaking up the legions into chapters, so no one individual has that much power at his command. If Sly Marbo was a marine, the chapter he belonged to would have a fighting strength so far above the 1,000 men, it could not be ignored.
Honestly, what other space marine has won so many battles without any arms? He's so awesome he can lead a chaos army with no arms at all and win battles with it!
That's one bad dude!
BTW, was it ever decided whether or not abby was actually a clone of horus? I knew it had been rumored he was, and if he was a clone of horus doesn't that make him a primarch? I guess if he was a primarch he could win battles without any arms.
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
2020/05/01 17:42:52
Subject: Re:Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
IMO it has to be Arik Taranis, conqueror of all Terra!! He was the most powerful thunder warrior, and is the template from which the other 20 Primarchs hail from! Psykers feared to gaze upon him because he was imbued with the emperors phychic powers. The Custodes and the emperor himself feared him, his intelligence and his raw abilities. Just my opinion. Cheers!
2020/05/01 18:37:29
Subject: Who is considered the single greatest astarte in terms of pure combat ability
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: You mentioned that no one could equal Mephiston in raw power. I gave examples that are very similar in raw power to show that you what he does is not outside the norm for very powerful psyker, but please go on about moving goal posts if it helps you feel better. Also Khayon struggled with Daravek because Daravek literally had a hold over his mind. Once that was gone, the fight was very one sided.
Also let’s not include M’kar as a feat. The only thing that gets kicked around more is the Avatar of Khaine.
He
Spoiler:
got his arm lopped off in a duel
where Meph is noted as being the best swordsman of the BA in the James Swallow novels.
Yes raw power, that manifest physically. He’s basically warp infused, passively, something else other then normal. For example,
Spoiler:
Mephiston staggered as Vitarus exploded into flame and a violent tremor rocked the mountainside.
‘My lord!’ cried Antros, as Mephiston strode towards Zorambus, drawing back his flaming sword. ‘The Blade Petrific!’ Remember why we came!’
Mephiston was gone, consumed by the Gift. As he brought his sword down towards Zorambus’ face, the road tore itself up from the ground, wrenched free like iron drawn to a magnet. Vitarus clattered against the sorcerer’s falchion, hauling several tonnes of rockcrete in its wake, burying Zorambus in a cloud of dust and rubble.
‘Gaius!’ roared Mephiston, summoning his wings and launching himself into the air, hovering over the plumes of dust.
Zorambus tumbled back across the mountainside, shocked by the ferocity of Mephiston’s blow.
Mephiston drew Vitarus back again and the ground rose up once more, whirling around the blade like a pennant of rocks.
Or
“Crimson spat from the sword, tearing through the half-formed Zorambus and turning the silverfish into a column of red flame.
A searing scream sliced through the storm as the sorcerer finally died, but the red fire did not halt at the destruction of Zorambus; it powered on across the collapsing rooftops and spires, ripping through the destruction and razing everything in its path, carving a brilliant red channel through the ruins of Volgatis and lancing out into the toppling peaks beyond.“
He’s the Dark Avatar of Sanguinus. So it’s nothing like beating the Avatar of Kaine by a regular marine,, he’s on the level to do that. Unless you want to ignore that he is not a baseline marine or even Liberian. You can’t rival someone who’s power doesn’t have a limit, just a new ceiling with each use!
This is a combat feat. No regular Marine would survive this.
If you want to talk physic power, I would say the Ahriman has more experience. But his feats can also compete. He’s don’t some powerful things and this stuff is before the things from Darkness in the Blood.
BrianDavion wrote: there's also no evidance Loken had psykic powers. it's possiable the founding leaders of the grey knights where not all universally psykers and instead where chosen for their ability to properly shape the chapter
The evidance you speak of is littered throughout the Horus Heresy books. I wont list them here, other then to point to to the Buried Dagger, when Loken takes up Rubio's force sword. And in the Saturnine, when he uses said sword to kill Torrmageddon. The use of psych powers seems to be fair game in a fight or duel. Its how Loken beat Lucius in Horus Rising. Prescience......
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