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Jjohnso11 wrote:Just for you I'm going to quote all the times the Primaris in the story are referred to as Brazen Drakes. Which for some reason you're sure they aren't wearing the iconography or carrying personalized weapons of Brazen Drakes.

Spoiler:

For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…

Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle.

The Greyshields’ leader was turning, eyes widening even as Tyvar raised his guardian spear. The three Brazen Drakes who flanked him moved almost as fast, but not even the post-Human Space Marines had the preternatural swiftness of thought and body possessed by the Adeptus Custodes.

We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world.

I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.

for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.

The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.

The Brazen Drake who had spoken was thrown flat on his back by the tight burst of mass-reactive bolts.

he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!

pummelling the Brazen Drake with ammunition as he strode swiftly forward.

From here, Dessima could see half a dozen Brazen Drakes who had spilled through the bridge’s bulkhead door to support their Captain.

They added their own flashing blades to the storm of violence engulfing the Brazen Drakes.

We will not rest until every Brazen Drakes Space Marine, old or new, lies dead.

And yet you still think they aren't Brazen Drakes???

Well done for missing my point.

I'm saying that the 'Greyshields' as depicted in the story are not written like actual Greyshields. It's as simple as that. It's not a case that I don't think they're Brazen Drakes, that would make the MOST sense for the story. I'm saying that they're not Greyshields. Either they are Brazen Drakes, and so would have been already inducted formally (which they haven't been), or they are Greyshields, and so haven't been inducted or indoctrinated into the Chapter. So which are they? Brazen Drakes, or Greyshields?

If I wrote an extract where I described "Ultramarines in bright yellow armour shouting 'for Rogal Dorn!", those wouldn't be Ultramarines. That would be me as an author making a mistake. Why are you so sure the author isn't making mistakes here?

I am definitely missing your point.
If I understand this correctly - you are trying to argue that reinforcement Space Marines for the Brazen Drakes aren't Brazen Drakes. So the Custodes is bringing Ultramarines Primaris as reinforcements for the Brazen Drakes? Or are the Custodes bringing Imperial Fists as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes? If the author wasn't talking about the reinforcements being Brazen Drakes why would he call them or refer to them as Brazen Drakes 13 times!

I just realized you think that the Greyshields still exist as a thing. They were disbanded and either made into new Chapters or sent as reinforcements to other Chapters. Not sure why that is relevant here.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I am definitely missing your point.
If I understand this correctly - you are trying to argue that reinforcement Space Marines for the Brazen Drakes aren't Brazen Drakes. So the Custodes is bringing Ultramarines Primaris as reinforcements for the Brazen Drakes? Or are the Custodes bringing Imperial Fists as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes? If the author wasn't talking about the reinforcements being Brazen Drakes why would he call them or refer to them as Brazen Drakes 13 times!

I'm arguing that there are two potential outcomes, which are mutually exclusive.

A: These are Greyshields, fresh from the Indomitus Crusade, and who's geneseed comes directly from the stocks on Terra from one of the 9 Loyalist Legions. I'm going to assume Salamanders, because 'Drakes', but that's just for clarity. These 'Salamanders' Greyshields have fought the Indomitus Crusade as individuals assigned to different squads, and now, Guilliman has decreed for these 200 Marines, under command of Gerion, to join together and reinforce the Salamanders successor Chapter, the Brazen Drakes. The Greyshields wouldn't have been given any kind of additional hypnotherapy or treatment to help them fit in, aside from maybe some basic information provided by some official, stuff like their basic history, figures of note, territory, combat doctrine, etc, and so are not yet Brazen Drakes. They aren't even Salamanders - they're just Greyshields. They travel with the Custodes, who are there to ensure that the Chapter Master of the Brazen Drakes actually accepts them into his ranks and begins the actual process of seeing them educated and inducted into the Brazen Drakes.
This one assumes that the entire story is misguided, as the Custodian should have no reason to suspect the unaligned Greyshields would be related at all to the heresy of a Chapter they've never met.

B: These are Brazen Drakes, who have long been already inducted into the Chapter. They may have once been Greyshields, or maybe they were never part of the Greyshield host. These Marines may or may not have geneseed directly from the Terran stocks, or from the stocks on Khassedur. They have been indoctrinated in the ways of the Brazen Drakes, given bespoke equipment and teachings, and are now returning back to the Chapter after fighting in the Indomitus Crusade, alongside a Custodian, perhaps as a travelling companion as part of the campaign. This one assumes that any mention of the Marines as Greyshields, or how they're waiting to be accepted into the Chapter, is a mistake.

Now, the one that I think makes the most sense is the latter. Greyshields are not drawn from successor Chapters, they are drawn from the Legion stock. As a result, a "Brazen Drakes Greyshield" simply doesn't exist, as the Brazen Drakes aren't a Legion! The Greyshields were all put in mixed-Legion groups in the Indomitus Crusade, and only later on were put in similar genetic groups and sent off to form new Chapters and reinforce existing ones. As a result, they would be genetically closer to the Salamanders Chapter (if they are Salamanders successors) than to the actual Brazen Drakes, and would be made up of Marines who have not contact with the Drakes whatsoever.
So, either they're Greyshields, or they're Brazen Drakes. Either way, the story makes an error.

I just realized you think that the Greyshields still exist as a thing. They were disbanded and either made into new Chapters or sent as reinforcements to other Chapters. Not sure why that is relevant here.

Yeah, they were disbanded - which is exactly what we're talking about here. The Marines in the story are "apparently" Greyshields that have been sent as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes. That doesn't mean they're Brazen Drakes Greyshields though! They would have been *insert Legion here* Greyshields, who would have been dispatched to reinforce a Chapter they would have had no contact with. They would have been as close to their new Chapter as they would any other successor Chapter of the same lineage.

So yes, I do understand what Greyshields are. And the ones in this story either are, and the entire thing is a write-off; or they aren't, and any mention of them as Greyshields is in error.

Now I've explained my point, do you see what I mean?

I understand where you're coming from. I think the Primaris' origins are irrelevant. They are now Brazen Drakes, call their new chapter Battle Brothers, are willing to go to the surface and die fighting for the Chapter.

The narrative in this article is about a force of Primaris on their way to reinforce their Chapter (origins of Primaris = irrelevant). Their chapter is pronounced traitor (even the head Primaris sees this and knows its true). The Custodes tells the Primaris with him who are reinforcements for this Chapter (origin irrelevant) to give up their weapons and come into custody to determine if they are also tainted with chaos/heresy/traitors/etc. They refuse(confirming to the Custodes they are also traitors), he starts killing them, the entire Space Marine force across the fleet turns traitor, story over. I believe the author only put Greyshields in the story to give an origin to where the Marines came from to make sure those skeptical individuals don't make the statement that NuMarines just appear out of thin air. He may also be making a point about the Custodes jumping the gun on accusing them of heresy - BUT!! the Primaris confirm his suspicions (self fulfilling prophecy much) by resisting and then fighting back.
I'll remake my point - origin irrelevant to the narrative and the point the author is trying to make.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I understand where you're coming from. I think the Primaris' origins are irrelevant. They are now Brazen Drakes, call their new chapter Battle Brothers, are willing to go to the surface and die fighting for the Chapter.

Right - so they're not Greyshields. Good. That's exactly what I was saying - that they shouldn't be called Greyshields.

The narrative in this article is about a force of Primaris on their way to reinforce their Chapter (origins of Primaris = irrelevant).

Again, it *does* make a difference. It all boils down to 'are these returning reinforcements or not'. If they're returning (aka, actual Brazen Drakes), then they shouldn't be called Greyshields, and the whole bit about needing to meet with Kaslyn to accept "Cawl's Miracle" is in error. If they're meeting for the first time (aka, actual Greyshields), then they shouldn't be called Brazen Drakes, and the Custodian is way out of order, even for 40k standards.

Their chapter is pronounced traitor (even the head Primaris sees this and knows its true). The Custodes tells the Primaris with him who are reinforcements for this Chapter (origin irrelevant) to give up their weapons and come into custody to determine if they are also tainted with chaos/heresy/traitors/etc.

No - again, origin *does* matter here. If it was a simple as the Custodian just saying "you are both Space Marines, please surrender your weapons so I know to trust you", that would be different, but he doesn't say that.
He calls them traitors, which, depending on their origin, either makes total sense, or none at all.

If they are actual Brazen Drakes, and not Greyshields, there actually *is* a chance of them being traitors.
If they are actual Greyshields, and not Brazen Drakes, then there is no possible connection the Custodian could make that would make the Greyshields traitorous that wouldn't also imply every Space Marine of that lineage is corrupt.

They refuse(confirming to the Custodes they are also traitors), he starts killing them, the entire Space Marine force across the fleet turns traitor, story over.

Yeah, this part I don't have an issue with. Regardless of their true nature, the Marines provoke the Custodes. This is fine, within setting. The issue is that the Custodian shouldn't have even called them out if they were actual Greyshields.

I believe the author only put Greyshields in the story to give an origin to where the Marines came from to make sure those skeptical individuals don't make the statement that NuMarines just appear out of thin air.

Right - so he put that in as an error. Which is exactly what I've been saying.

Those Marines being Primaris literally isn't important to the story. Them being Greyshields doesn't have to be important to the story. The author trying to making it about Primaris actively harms the story because they mess up what a Greyshield is.

That's been my whole point!

He may also be making a point about the Custodes jumping the gun on accusing them of heresy - BUT!! the Primaris confirm his suspicions (self fulfilling prophecy much) by resisting and then fighting back.

Again, I don't have an issue about this part. The Marines accidentally proving the Custodian right doesn't change the fact that if those Marines were ACTUALLY Greyshields, the Custodian shouldn't have felt any need to threaten them.

I'll remake my point - origin irrelevant to the narrative and the point the author is trying to make.

And I disagree. You're right in that the origin of the Marines shouldn't matter, but the author tries to cram in something about their origin that actively takes away from the story they're telling. And unfortunately, if they're the ones bringing in that these are actually Greyshields, then it's very important to point out that this breaks the narrative and internal consistency.

I'm not trying to hate the story. I'm just pointing out that this could all easily be fixed if the entire "these are Greyshields visiting the Chapter for the first time" subplot was cut out. You could give me an hour, and I'd replace that whole thing with what is essentially "la la la, we're coming back home after a long campaign with a Custodes escort - OH NO, look what happened while we were gone!"
That would increase the moral ambiguity (are the Marines truly innocent? Did they know about this? Are they just defending their honour, or are they actually in league?) and more importantly, make everyone's reactions more believable.

the obvious answer is they where grey sheilds but when selected to join the braven drakes they where subjected to the useal psycho indoctrination proceesses in transit to better perpare them to join their chapter. remember warp travel isn't instant

BrianDavion wrote:
the obvious answer is they where grey sheilds but when selected to join the braven drakes they where subjected to the useal psycho indoctrination proceesses in transit to better perpare them to join their chapter. remember warp travel isn't instant

It's just that we've never seen Greyshields be psycho-indoctrinated prior to their arrival. With nearly every Greyshield we've seen beforehand (Space Wolves/Wolfspear, Ultramarines, and Flesh Tearers), they don't seem to undergo specific indoctrination and instead their education is left to the Chapter itself when they arrive. I just don't buy that indoctrination prior to arrival is performed, which would leave the only connection between the Greyshields and actual Brazen Drakes as a shared Primarch - they wouldn't even share the same exact geneseed, because the Greyshields would take theirs from purer Terran stock, compared to the corrupted Drakes stock.

Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:

They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.

When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.

Aash wrote:
Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:

They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.

When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.

That still kind of sidesteps Sgt_Smudge's point though. Even if they're technically beauracratically "grey shield bronze drakes," if the custodes is aware that they're grey shields who haven't even met this chapter before, then his response is still silly. Like, in that scenario, the custodes knows that these guys have never met a member of the heretical chapter to which they only belong on paper. Even if he's "legally" obligated to arrest them because of an obviously flawed by the book interpretation of the inquisitorial decree, he still approaches what he, in this scenario, knows to be a case of beauracratic error by being confrontational, dickish, and accusatory to the people that he knows are innocent.

The custodes response when the captain tries to logically talk through the situation is to shut down that attempt and straight up call the marine a traitor. So if the custodes is aware of their innocence, his actions are myopic and harmful to the imperium he serves.

Personally, I don't think this is out of character for the imperium or the setting, but I do think it's stupid. Imperials are stupid. Really, really stupid.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Aash wrote:
Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:

They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.

When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.

That still kind of sidesteps Sgt_Smudge's point though. Even if they're technically beauracratically "grey shield bronze drakes," if the custodes is aware that they're grey shields who haven't even met this chapter before, then his response is still silly. Like, in that scenario, the custodes knows that these guys have never met a member of the heretical chapter to which they only belong on paper. Even if he's "legally" obligated to arrest them because of an obviously flawed by the book interpretation of the inquisitorial decree, he still approaches what he, in this scenario, knows to be a case of beauracratic error by being confrontational, dickish, and accusatory to the people that he knows are innocent.

Exactly. Custodes should know so much better than "well, they're TECHNICALLY Brazen Drakes, so they must be traitors". They know for a fact that these are Greyshields, they know for a fact that they've had no contact with the actual Brazen Drakes, so why bother doing the whole "loyalty test" thing?

It's precisely the problem I have with a lot of 40k's "grimdark" writing - it's not grimdark because it's actually effective but horrific, it's grimdark for the sake of it. It's grimdumb.
Compare the story we got with what I'd have rewritten it as: the Marines actually being established Brazen Drakes, returning back to their Chapter after a century of crusading, and finding their home in ruins and Chapter disgraced. Now, the Custodian being distrustful and hardline makes sense within the setting, as both we and the Custodian know that these Marines could easily be corrupted. Similarly, we can empathise with the Marines if they are innocent, because they're defending the their identity that they've held since their creation as a Space Marine. That's grimdark, not the grimdumb we got.

Wyldhunt wrote:
The custodes response when the captain tries to logically talk through the situation

The captain's actions aren't logical though. Even Sgt_Smudge says that the sergent act like he would if he was already an actual member of the Brazen Drakes, not a grey shield.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Aash wrote:
Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:

They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.

When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.

That still kind of sidesteps Sgt_Smudge's point though. Even if they're technically beauracratically "grey shield bronze drakes," if the custodes is aware that they're grey shields who haven't even met this chapter before, then his response is still silly. Like, in that scenario, the custodes knows that these guys have never met a member of the heretical chapter to which they only belong on paper. Even if he's "legally" obligated to arrest them because of an obviously flawed by the book interpretation of the inquisitorial decree, he still approaches what he, in this scenario, knows to be a case of beauracratic error by being confrontational, dickish, and accusatory to the people that he knows are innocent.

Exactly. Custodes should know so much better than "well, they're TECHNICALLY Brazen Drakes, so they must be traitors". They know for a fact that these are Greyshields, they know for a fact that they've had no contact with the actual Brazen Drakes, so why bother doing the whole "loyalty test" thing?

It's precisely the problem I have with a lot of 40k's "grimdark" writing - it's not grimdark because it's actually effective but horrific, it's grimdark for the sake of it. It's grimdumb.
Compare the story we got with what I'd have rewritten it as: the Marines actually being established Brazen Drakes, returning back to their Chapter after a century of crusading, and finding their home in ruins and Chapter disgraced. Now, the Custodian being distrustful and hardline makes sense within the setting, as both we and the Custodian know that these Marines could easily be corrupted. Similarly, we can empathise with the Marines if they are innocent, because they're defending the their identity that they've held since their creation as a Space Marine. That's grimdark, not the grimdumb we got.

Absolutely. If they'd spent any time at all with the Brazen Draks proper, there's an unlikely but concerning chance of corruption. Chaos is like glitter. It gets everywhere and spreads to everything glittered objects touch. But these guys have never even been near the chaos glitter in question. Agreed t hat nixing the "grey shields" part instantly makes the story better.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
The custodes response when the captain tries to logically talk through the situation

The captain's actions aren't logical though. Even Sgt_Smudge says that the sergent act like he would if he was already an actual member of the Brazen Drakes, not a grey shield.

Fair, but that's more a callout of questionable internal consistency. The marine was still basically going, "Woah. Let's talk about this," and the custodes responded with, "I won't hear you out. To me, you're already definitely a traitor because we pencilled in the words "Brazen Drakes" on your name tag yesterday. Even though I myself know you've never had contact with any Brazen Drakes."

I liked this short story, one of my favourites from them so far in this recent set. It may well be that the Custodian was privy to more information than shown in the story - perhaps the Greyshield Brazen Drakes have had some communication with the main Chapter while en route that wasn’t explained, perhaps the Custodian thought there was even a minute chance that the corruption had already spread to the Greyshields and decided that the fastest way to determine that was the issue an abrupt test of loyalty. Regardless, it’s well within the purview of the Custodes and Inquisition to make a decision like this based on little-to-no evidence and well within their power to perform a test in any manner they see fit. The Greyshields seem to be spread amongst the fleet so if they are heretics they’d be capable of huge damage, so extreme measures could be argued to be justified.

Even if it is within the power of the Custodes to start purging multiple Companies-worth of Marines, and even if there was some reason to suspect corruption, Tyvar would still be an idiot for causing a situation where those Marines who are spread throughout his fleet are now in open revolt against the other Imperial forces.

If he wanted to kill them all, why not get them to gather in one place, on one ship first; or fire on them as they head down to the planet; or bombard them once they've made planetfall?

It's so often the case with GW's fiction that the characters/factions seem to be left holding an idiot ball for no apparent reason.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Even if it is within the power of the Custodes to start purging multiple Companies-worth of Marines, and even if there was some reason to suspect corruption, Tyvar would still be an idiot for causing a situation where those Marines who are spread throughout his fleet are now in open revolt against the other Imperial forces.

If he wanted to kill them all, why not get them to gather in one place, on one ship first; or fire on them as they head down to the planet; or bombard them once they've made planetfall?

It's so often the case with GW's fiction that the characters/factions seem to be left holding an idiot ball for no apparent reason.

Moves like those could illicit suspicion from the Marines that steps are being taken against them and so allow them to enact their heresy (if they are indeed heretics). For whatever the reason the Custodes acted and however it was persecuted I’m content to assume it was necessary (or at least justified) given the situation. Seeing the outcome we can know that the ends justified the means as the Marines disobeyed an order from the Adeptus Custodes on the matters of acting against known heretics (by that I mean the Brazen Drakes on planet).

It could even be decided in a later story that the Custodian acted rashly here (certainly an understandable and very interesting outcome) and that they will face some sort of censure for it but that isn’t for the Marines in question to decide.

'Illicit suspicion' like calling them all traitors did..? And then starting a battle on the ship's bridge...
Yeah, not seeing how Tyvar's solution is any better there.

And remember, this guy is supposed to be a 'supreme tactician' who's 'sublimely skilled, strategic and tactical nous is little short of supernatural' (Codex: Adeptus Custodes (8th ed.), pg.8 (paraphrased).

Also: 'The warriors of the Adeptus Custodes disregard the idea of blind obedience, and look with disdain upon those who follow the orders of their superiors without question.'
'Shield-Captains are also master diplomats'
(pg.37)
I'm not getting any of that from my dude Tyvar.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
'Illicit suspicion' like calling them all traitors did..? And then starting a battle on the ship's bridge...
Yeah, not seeing how Tyvar's solution is any better there.

And remember, this guy is supposed to be a 'supreme tactician' who's 'sublimely skilled, strategic and tactical nous is little short of supernatural' (Codex: Adeptus Custodes (8th ed.), pg.8 (paraphrased).

Also: 'The warriors of the Adeptus Custodes disregard the idea of blind obedience, and look with disdain upon those who follow the orders of their superiors without question.'
'Shield-Captains are also master diplomats'
(pg.37)
I'm not getting any of that from my dude Tyvar.

Fair enough, nothing wrong with having different opinions I just wanted to explain my reasons for being content with the story. As the Custodes are sublime tacticians I’m happy to believe that this was the best outcome as the Custodian saw it. The might look disdainfully upon those who follow orders blindly but I’m sure they would certainly expect such obedience from the Marines in this situation, as they would from almost anyone they issue orders to.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Fair, but that's more a callout of questionable internal consistency. The marine was still basically going, "Woah. Let's talk about this," and the custodes responded with, "I won't hear you out. To me, you're already definitely a traitor because we pencilled in the words "Brazen Drakes" on your name tag yesterday. Even though I myself know you've never had contact with any Brazen Drakes."

Remember: the Custodes has been with the marines for long before the story starts. He likely has already noticed that they act like they were already part of the Brazen Drake chapter, whyever that happens.

xlDuke wrote:It may well be that the Custodian was privy to more information than shown in the story - perhaps the Greyshield Brazen Drakes have had some communication with the main Chapter while en route that wasn’t explained

Well then that really should have been explained, shouldn't it?

Basically, there's definitely a degree of not mentioning important information or the author not understanding the relationship the Marines have with their new hosts.

perhaps the Custodian thought there was even a minute chance that the corruption had already spread to the Greyshields and decided that the fastest way to determine that was the issue an abrupt test of loyalty.

As I've said, there's plenty of cases of Marines having far more odds of being corrupted (see, entire Chapters who have had one of their own, or even full companies fall to Chaos - see the Gaudinian Heresy of the Iron Hands) and the Custodes doing nothing about it.
If Custodes are so aggressive about rooting out heresy, why haven't they done anything about far more suspect Chapters?

Regardless, it’s well within the purview of the Custodes and Inquisition to make a decision like this based on little-to-no evidence and well within their power to perform a test in any manner they see fit.

It's well within their authority yes, but that doesn't explain the why? Why does the Custodian feel that these Greyshields (who have, to our knowledge, and therefore, the only knowledge we have, never communicated with the corrupt Chapter) are a threat? He has as much reason to distrust the Greyshields as he does the human servants aboard the vessel. The ship's captain, every one of the crew, even arguably the Sisters of Silence - they are all equally as likely of being corrupted. Why does he single out the Greyshields?

The Greyshields seem to be spread amongst the fleet so if they are heretics they’d be capable of huge damage, so extreme measures could be argued to be justified.

The same can be said of the human servants aboard each ship. Why the Greyshields?

Are we missing that the point of the story seems to be indicating the ties between Adeptus Astartes battle brothers even though they've never met?

To Sgt_Smudge and others, it seems that they think Gerion jumping to defend his chapter's honor is out of character (as a Greyshield), but to me that read as the entire point of the story. That even though Gerion had never met any Brazen Drakes he still viewed them as his battle-brothers. He had some, and let's consider the other stories about the Brazen Drakes here, mystical non-physical connection to his chapter.
Perhaps this... mystical non-physical connection he and his Greyshields had... could be related to the propensity for members of the chapter to be psykers?
Or it could even just be what the Custodes says, and that Adeptus Astartes stick together to a fault. He literally says it in the story. If that isn't the author hammering the point home heavy-handedly, I don't know what is.

I think it’s perfectly good storytelling to not include every piece of information, it is just a short story and it adds to the dramatics. I don’t think the author misunderstands anything - it’s their story after all and to my eyes is consistent enough with the background. The way the Custodian handles the situation could be the entire point of the story in the eyes of the author, perhaps it’s meant to show its/his callousness when dealing with Marines, juxtaposed against how we’ve seen similar situations handled.

Your other examples are similar but aren’t quite the same - in this story we’ve got a ranking Custodian (probably commanding the entire fleet as well as the mission) who is perfectly placed to react to the situation as it unfolds. I’m unaware of any similar stories where the Custodes are immediately on-hand instead of acting after the fact or announcing judgement on a prior event.

I can’t explain why the human contingent of the fleet isn’t also under immediate scrutiny but as is fitting of the Custodes I’d imagine that will all be studied as soon as is possible, if any parts of the Custodes orders aren’t followed out to satisfaction when it comes to purging the Marines I would think those individuals would be similarly disposed of at the end of a guardian spear.

It certainly would be nice to know in detail why it happened the way it did but that’s just not what this story is about, this story is about the event itself. Were it a novel I would imagine we would get a deeper look at the whys and wherefores.

Rihgu wrote:
Are we missing that the point of the story seems to be indicating the ties between Adeptus Astartes battle brothers even though they've never met?

To Sgt_Smudge and others, it seems that they think Gerion jumping to defend his chapter's honor is out of character (as a Greyshield)

Not really. My *biggest* problem is the Custodian even suspecting Gerion in the first place.

As a Greyshield, Gerion should have absolutely no connection to the Brazen Drakes over any other Chapter of his bloodline that could be a a cause for corruption.

Perhaps this... mystical non-physical connection he and his Greyshields had... could be related to the propensity for members of the chapter to be psykers?

Why are the Brazen Drakes susceptible to this psychic affliction though? What causes it? Let's break down possible things.
Geneseed? Most likely. But the Greyshields wouldn't have Brazen Drakes geneseed. They'd have the same geneseed as their initial Primarch. Working under the assumption the Brazen Drakes are Salamanders successors* (because 'Drakes'), the Greyshields would have Salamanders geneseed, not Brazen Drakes stock.
Training/indoctrination? Possible. But Greyshields aren't indoctrinated until arrival at their new home, so would be identical to every other Greyshield from their lineage.
Tainted recruiting stock? Potentially. But the Greyshields aren't necessarily drawn from recruits of their to-be home. Sure, it's possible that a Greyshield could have been recruited from Khassedur, but that would rely on Khassedur being a recruiting world from M31, the genetic defect being present in their recruiting stock from that time and being undiscovered that whole time, and that Marine being chosen to return to Khassedur as part of the new Brazen Drakes Primaris. And that's just the odds for ONE Marine. You're saying that there were 200 Marines taken from Khassedur, assuming that Khassedur was even an Imperial world in M31, and they all returned as part of the same force?

What other thing could cause this psychic curse that apparently *only* affects Brazen Drakes, and even Marines that have never met, been trained, or even share the same geneseed as them?

Or it could even just be what the Custodes says, and that Adeptus Astartes stick together to a fault. He literally says it in the story. If that isn't the author hammering the point home heavy-handedly, I don't know what is.

If that's truly the case, and Space Marines will always stick together to a fault, why haven't the Custodes killed off every Space Marine Chapter that's had members turn traitor?
Like, I don't know, the Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Blood Angels, at the very least?

Perhaps because the way things played out are better suited for the sake of the story being told? That the author is exercising some dramatic license? That the author doesn’t feel it necessary to be utterly beholden to every other piece of fiction written in the setting, but rather views it as a broad canvas on which to explore particular interpretations? Maybe the fact that the story is a Short Story interested in make a single dramatic statement as opposed to a novel more interested in exploring the personnel motivations and soul searching of individual characters, or that it’s not primarily interested in highly detailed in universe referencing and intertextual consistency at the expense of the story being told?

Maybe the author has a different perspective to you on the mindset of Custodes , space marines et al.

Myself and many others have offered perfectly plausible explanations for the whys of the story including the motivations and thoughts of those involved as well as the use of the terminology in the story. At this point it’s getting to the point of trolling. You dislike the story, we get it. If you aren’t looking for plausible explanations for perceived short comings and (disputed) plot holes, I’m not sure why you are engaging in this thread tbh.

 xlDuke wrote:
I think it’s perfectly good storytelling to not include every piece of information, it is just a short story and it adds to the dramatics.

I disagree strongly. I'm not saying you need EVERY piece of information, but if you're withholding information that actually explains the scene without a good reason for why that feature wasn't explained (ie, for a plot twist), that's just poor writing, IMO.

If withholding information harms the story's consistency and internal logic (which this one does), that's bad.

I don’t think the author misunderstands anything - it’s their story after all and to my eyes is consistent enough with the background.

And to my eyes and understanding, it's not consistent with other pieces of information.
Sure, it's their story. But it's their story being presented as canon. 40k is bigger than any single author.

The way the Custodian handles the situation could be the entire point of the story in the eyes of the author, perhaps it’s meant to show its/his callousness when dealing with Marines, juxtaposed against how we’ve seen similar situations handled.

They could have shown exactly the same callousness if they'd made those Marines Brazen Drakes and not Greyshields from the start. A Custodian arresting and killing Marines for the sins of their brethren is callous, no matter how you look at it, but having the Custodian actually have a reason to beyond "hurr conflikt" enriches the story immensely.
I mean, there's people suggesting that the Custodian only challenges the Marines because he wants to see if they're loyal - without any reason to suspect they were disloyal prior!

Your other examples are similar but aren’t quite the same - in this story we’ve got a ranking Custodian (probably commanding the entire fleet as well as the mission) who is perfectly placed to react to the situation as it unfolds. I’m unaware of any similar stories where the Custodes are immediately on-hand instead of acting after the fact or announcing judgement on a prior event.

That doesn't change the fact that Custodians should still be acting against Chapters with known traitors, unless you're implying that the Custodes are so lazy they can't be bothered to deal with something unless it's immediately in their field of vision.
They could easily do things about the Chapters with noted traitor elements. They have the manpower. They have the ships. They have the authority. Why haven't they, if they're so obsessed with killing Marines for the slightest trace of corruption?

Were it a novel I would imagine we would get a deeper look at the whys and wherefores.

Yeah, perhaps we would. But that's not what we got. So I'm judging it based on what we know, what we were shown, and I believe it to be deeply contradictory, and at odds with other pieces of information in the setting. Literally, had it not mentioned Greyshields, I'd be shouting my praises. But that one feature alone derails the entire story.

If I wrote a piece of fiction about Ultramarines, but I kept talking about their bright yellow armour and closed fist sigil, no matter how good my fiction was, it would still be flawed.


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Aash wrote:
Perhaps because the way things played out are better suited for the sake of the story being told?

What does mentioning Greyshields add to the story?

That the author is exercising some dramatic license?

Dramatic license at the cost of breaking recent continuity? Was mentioning Greyshields really worth it?

That the author doesn’t feel it necessary to be utterly beholden to every other piece of fiction written in the setting, but rather views it as a broad canvas on which to explore particular interpretations?

It's not like their entire thing is flawed. It is literally one word, one phrase, that is inconsistent.
What was the point of including that? For the sake of the story, the narrative, the setting - why bring it up? What does that add?

Maybe the fact that the story is a Short Story interested in make a single dramatic statement as opposed to a novel more interested in exploring the personnel motivations and soul searching of individual characters, or that it’s not primarily interested in highly detailed in universe referencing and intertextual consistency at the expense of the story being told?

So why mention Greyshields at all if that's not what they're interested in talking about? Again, it's not like they had to mention them at all. Greyshields were deliberately added into the story, and IMO, derailed the otherwise excellent story and theme.

Maybe the author has a different perspective to you on the mindset of Custodes , space marines et al.

That wouldn't be just different to me, that would be a different perspective to the Custodes Codex, Dark Imperium, the various pieces of fiction explaining and featuring Greyshields, etc. Bringing Greyshields into the story (wholly unnecessarily, I might add) breaks internal consistency.

Myself and many others have offered perfectly plausible explanations for the whys of the story including the motivations and thoughts of those involved as well as the use of the terminology in the story.

And I've pointed how how those "perfectly plausible explanations" don't hold up with other pieces of 40k material.
What's wrong with admitting "maybe the author was confused and messed things up"?

At this point it’s getting to the point of trolling. You dislike the story, we get it.

You clearly don't, because I like the story. What I don't like is the incorrect terminology used in it that actively harms the story being told. I like the story, and want it to be better!
No-one has explained to me why the Marines being Greyshields is so critical to the narrative, and why, if they were just normal Brazen Drakes coming back home after a long crusade, the story's themes would be any different or any worse.

If you aren’t looking for plausible explanations for perceived short comings and (disputed) plot holes, I’m not sure why you are engaging in this thread tbh.

If I was after after plausible explanations, I'd still be waiting.

I'm engaging in the thread to dispute these "plausible explanations", because they simply don't hold water. I don't get what's wrong with admitting that maybe, just maybe, the author messed up on some details? That doesn't change there's a really nice core story and theme at play. But that doesn't mean it's flawless!

Marines stick to their chapters but a part of that is loyalty to the Imperium. Once a marine goes traitor they are no longer part of their chapter and are probably hated more than normal chaos marines.
Even if all the non greyshield marines in the chapter went traitor the greyshields would probably view themselves as the last drakes left because the others are traitors or died.

pm713 wrote:
Marines stick to their chapters but a part of that is loyalty to the Imperium. Once a marine goes traitor they are no longer part of their chapter and are probably hated more than normal chaos marines.
Even if all the non greyshield marines in the chapter went traitor the greyshields would probably view themselves as the last drakes left because the others are traitors or died.

Maybe, but I'm not sure the Greyshields would have *that* much attachment to the Brazen Drakes identity. However, I'd actually be really interested in a story like that - of Marines taking up the mantle of a Chapter they've never known and seeing themselves as the last of an identity they're finding out for themselves. I've heard of Chapter taking up the names and colours of dead Chapters before, but never of a Chapter that's still not "dead" yet - I think would be a really interesting story!

I don’t see any issues with it.

The Custodes have absolute authority, probs more so than an Inquisitor.

Right now? The Imperium is sorely pressed. Yes they have near limitless resources, but those are still spread thin.

If there is even the slightest doubt of a Chapter’s loyalty, and there’s the opportunity to end any potential threat in a single stroke? You take it.

Better you lose roughly 1,000 Space Marines now, than have to hunt them down and soak the damage they do during said pursuit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

If there is even the slightest doubt of a Chapter’s loyalty, and there’s the opportunity to end any potential threat in a single stroke? You take it.

Does Tyvar end the potential threat, though? Or does he create a situation where he has 200 Marines spread throughout his fleet who are now in open revolt where they weren't before?

It’s still the problem at its most controlled.

Those 200 or so Astartes are not going anywhere. Their locations are known. They’re not getting reinforcements.

Yes there will be a Butcher’s Bill by the end of the affair. But better that than letting potential traitors the chance to rearm and head out into the wider Galaxy.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I don’t see any issues with it.

The Custodes have absolute authority, probs more so than an Inquisitor.

Right now? The Imperium is sorely pressed. Yes they have near limitless resources, but those are still spread thin.

If there is even the slightest doubt of a Chapter’s loyalty, and there’s the opportunity to end any potential threat in a single stroke? You take it.

Better you lose roughly 1,000 Space Marines now, than have to hunt them down and soak the damage they do during said pursuit.

But *was* there a slightest doubt of the Greyshield's loyalty? Before the Custodian forced the Greyshield's hand, what evidence was there of them being sympathetic to the Brazen Drakes?
Genetically? No special link (at least, that wouldn't mean every Marine of that Primarch's lineage was also a traitor).
Training? We're shown that Greyshields don't get hypno-indoctrinated.
Just for being Space Marines? Why aren't all Marines held to the same standard?

I'm not disputing that the Custodian has every *right* to do what they want, but what was the reason? There was no reason at all that doesn't incriminate every Space Marine in the galaxy: so why don't the Custodes arrest every Space Marine?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But better that than letting potential traitors the chance to rearm and head out into the wider Galaxy.

Again, potential traitors. By that logic, isn't every citizen of the Imperium, let alone Space Marine, a potential traitor? If the litmus test for "potential traitor" is "someone vaguely associated with you turned traitor", they why haven't Chapters with confirmed heretics, Guardsmen recruiting worlds which have spawned traitors, or Mechanicum worlds which have produced rogue members all been put to the torch?

What is the degree to which the Custodes regard people as "potential" traitors? Unlike the Inquisition, who aren't a unified body, or even individually powerful, the Custodes have the authority, collective beliefs (generally), and means by which to hold entire Chapters accountable. Why are the Brazen Drakes Greyshields punished for infractions that other Chapters have committed to a far worse degree?

Again, to make it clear, I'm not arguing that the Imperium is tolerant or isn't steeped in paranoia. I'm just disputing to what degree they act on that paranoia. Accusing 200 Marines of corruption because a completely unrelated Chapter turned traitor flies in the face of what I'd expect from a Custodes.