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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant. But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.

Prejudice is all he needs... it's kind of like reactionary bigots make the Imperium go round... oh, wait..!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Power, and the capacity to wield it in a political context - those chapters have more of it than a random no-name faction... like how resistance movements rely on building a reputation and recognition, the realpolitik should be pretty obvious to pinpoint. Like how all those radical inquisitors get to keep on radic-ing - power and the capacity (not ability) to use it. 40k makes a lot more sense when viewed through the lens of factions-within-factions of space fascists unable to wield their power due to the bucket of crabs effect. Because, to borrow a phrase "Nazis are messy bitches."

alextroy wrote:The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story.

The heart of the story is "even the smallest infraction will damn you". Not "Custodes are so dumb they think if you put a different name tag on you're suddenly evil".

Had those Marines been Brazen Drakes, or Greyshields which acted first, the story would be find, and still have the same heart.

When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions.

Good thing those Marines weren't Brazen Drakes then, isn't it?
At the risk of repeating myself, in an official capacity (which is what you're appealing to by this whole "the entire Chapter regardless of removal is traitors" logic) those Marines were not attached to the Brazen Drakes. Those Marines officially were Greyshields of *insert Legion here*. Hell, their whole trip, and the reason for the Custodes presence, was to make them official Brazen Drakes! So the Custodian was well aware that these Marines weren't connected, officially or unofficially, with the Brazen Drakes.

They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally. The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.

Now, that part, like I've said countless times, I'm not disagreeing with. The moment the Marines say anything other than "how shall we execute the Brazen Drakes milord?" is when they sign their death warrant. That's not the part I;m talking about. Ignore that, and maybe we'll get somewhere.

I'm talking about the immediate start of the story - I'm talking about the Custodian immediately calling the Marines traitors before they can even breathe. Why? Those Marines aren't Brazen Drakes. Why is he treating them like they're Brazen Drakes?
It makes about as much sense as if he was travelling with some Ultramarines, and then when he gets the call that the Brazen Drakes are traitors, draws his weapon on the Ultramarines before they even say anything. It's complete lunacy, even for 40k standards. Again, if this *was* 40k standards, where are all the other Chapters that have been wiped out by Custodians following Tyvar's logic?

There is a reason the story is named Consequences. It is about people paying the Consequences for other people's actions.

The reason it is called Consequences is the consequences of your own, that even speaking in your defence will bring dire ramifications, or that suddenly attacking 200 Marines in your fleet will have consequences.
And if your interpretation of the title were correct, there's still a way the story can match that and still make sense in 40k.

Have the Marines on the ship be Brazen Drakes. Remove any mention of Greyshield, remove the entire spiel about "accepting Cawl's miracle" - what's the problem in that edit? Those Marines now actually have a reason to be suspected by Tyvar, but could still easily have been truly innocent.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Spoiler:

 alextroy wrote:
The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story. When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions. Regardless of how removed they are from the hersey at hand. Yes, even these guys who's only crime is someone put Brazen Drakes in their personnel file and dispatched them to a world no one knew was in termoil are suspect also.

The custodes knows that the gray shields have no connection to the Brazen Drakes. If his logic for condemning them is being on the roster, then he's acting in a very stupid fashion. That stupidity is internally inconsistent with the intelligence custodes are supposed to possess. And that's my issue. It's an inconsistency with the internal logic of the setting.

They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally.

Well, they were already judged by the custodes to be traitors. It's not like he was offering them a chance to peacefully disarm so that their guilt could be determined later. He immediately decided they were traitors for no reason other than "Brazen Drakes" being scribbled above their names a few weeks ago.

The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.

There was no chance to opt out of taking. There was zero reason to think that the marines would rebel at the time the custodes declared them traitors. Unless you mean armed conflict within the fleet, in which case the custodes took that from a possibility to a guarantee by immediately escalation the situation. By that logic, the custodes now have to go wage a war against every chapter sharing the same primarch as the Brazen Drakes if not every chapter in general. After all, those chapters have the same reason to be suspected as the gray shields (i.e. no reason at all).

Can't fault a word of this. Someone's actually been reading my posts, and gets what I'm saying. Thank you.

Catulle wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant. But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.

Prejudice is all he needs... it's kind of like reactionary bigots make the Imperium go round... oh, wait..!

If prejudice is all he needs, why hasn't Tyvar here exterminated every other Space Marine he comes across?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?

Power, and the capacity to wield it in a political context - those chapters have more of it than a random no-name faction... like how resistance movements rely on building a reputation and recognition, the realpolitik should be pretty obvious to pinpoint. Like how all those radical inquisitors get to keep on radic-ing - power and the capacity (not ability) to use it. 40k makes a lot more sense when viewed through the lens of factions-within-factions of space fascists unable to wield their power due to the bucket of crabs effect. Because, to borrow a phrase "Nazis are messy bitches."

But these are Custodians. They're not like Inquisitors who have to marshall other people's power. Custodians have their own archeotech, their own small armies of helots and indentured servants, individual numbers to overwhelm several Chapters at one, and their own fleet to match, as well as Sisters of Silence. Custodes are, almost uniquely within the Imperium, loved/respected/feared by all, regardless of station. They're to a Space Marine what Space Marines are to guardsmen.

It should be trivial for the Custodes to exterminate a loyal Chapter. Fly to their homeworld with as many Custodes as you think necessary, cloak the rest of the fleet, use the Sisters of Silence to silence their astropathic choirs before the attack, and then wipe them out internally.

If the Custodes wanted to kill Space Marines, they could. Why don't they?

What makes you think they don’t?

Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?

Aash wrote:
What makes you think they don’t?

Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?

Training exercise is how I usually do it

 Mr Morden wrote:

Aash wrote:
What makes you think they don’t?

Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?

Training exercise is how I usually do it

A perfectly sensible approach, no more or less so than a bureaucratic typo causing an attempted exterminates, a Custodes Officer with a grudge, or a commissar declaring a space marine chapter as heretics with no evidence. All perfectly reasonable justifications for a 40k battle in my book.

Aash wrote:
What makes you think they don’t?

Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?

The point of contention is not at all whether or not the Custodes and Astartes ever come to blows, and that should be evident through reading what has been said.

If you want a battle between loyal SMs and custodes it's easy to explain:

Alpha legion slipped both sides messages saying the other side had gone traitor.

Since the general attitude in the imperium is "Shoot first ask questions never." both sides would likely attack on sight.

 harlokin wrote:

Aash wrote:
What makes you think they don’t?

Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?

The point of contention is not at all whether or not the Custodes and Astartes ever come to blows, and that should be evident through reading what has been said.

I thought I was pretty clear on my views regarding the initial point of contention 2 or 3 pages ago in this thread and didn’t think it necessary to reiterate the same point once again. I was specifically addressing the question asked by Sgt_Smudge as to why Custodes don’t attempt to attack another space marine chapters by demonstrating that there is no evidence to suggest that they don’t, and that the background stories exist primarily to give a setting to explore on the tabletop, in our imaginations and in the expanded writings available, both professionally and amateur. There is no requirement for the level of internal consistency he seems to be seeking, and I would argue that this would in fact be detrimental to the setting, and to the hobby as a whole.

Aash wrote:What makes you think they don’t?

I'm sure they do kill Marines. But with actual reason to suspect them, unlike this.

Christ, it's like you're not even reading my posts. Inter-Imperial conflict is fine. But at least have the combatants have a reason to suspect the other. It can be as simple as "prayed 32 degrees north instead of 33" or "your Chapter Master insulted ours two thousand years ago!" or "you took too long to help us".

There simply wasn't a reason in this story! The Custodes know that the Greyshields aren't related to the Brazen Drakes any more so than the Sisters of Silence are. If they're happy to kill Space Marines for 0 reason, why didn't they do the same with the Sisters?

Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?

Anything that has a reason is good in my eyes.

This story didn't have one.

"Bbbbut they had orders to kill the Brazen Drakes!" - Yes, but Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.
"Bbbbut they are still Space Marines!" - So are 998800 others. Does that mean Tyvar now has orders to kill them all?
"Bbbbut they could have had communications with the enemy!" - So could the Sisters of Silence, the servants on the ship, or even the Custodes. Did Tyvar kill any of them?

If someone presented 'Consequences' as the fluff for why the two armies were fighting, I'd be saying exactly the same thing - what motive do the Custodes have to have started this fight? It'd be like saying "yeah, my army's lore is that they were called in to wipe out the traitor Genericus Marines Chapter, that's why they're fighting you."
"But I'm not playing Genericus Marines, I'm playing Space Wolves?"
"Hahaha yeah lol well now they're on the table so you're traitors now"
It completely bypasses why they're actually on the table in the first place (aka, why the Custodian accused the Greyshields).

Matt Swain wrote:If you want a battle between loyal SMs and custodes it's easy to explain:

Alpha legion slipped both sides messages saying the other side had gone traitor.

Since the general attitude in the imperium is "Shoot first ask questions never." both sides would likely attack on sight.

Hey, it's a fine reason. At least both sides have been directly told it's the other side that's a traitor, not "these guys are traitors, which means this other completely unrelated army is traitorous too!"

Aash wrote:
I was specifically addressing the question asked by Sgt_Smudge as to why Custodes don’t attempt to attack another space marine chapters by demonstrating that there is no evidence to suggest that they don’t,

No, that's not what I said at all.

I made it clear that Custodes attacking Marines with reasons is fine. If I had a problem with that, I'd be complaining about how they're attacking the Brazen Drakes. I'm not complaining about that though, because they have a reason to do so.

They do not have a reason to attack the Greyshields. THAT'S the point I'm getting at. If they're going to accuse the totally innocent Greyshields of heresy, then they should be accusing every Space Marine Chapter as well. It's not hard to see the difference?

Brazen Drakes + Doing Something Suspicious = Custodes Attack. This makes sense.
Greyshields + Doing Nothing Suspicious At All = Custodes Attack. This doesn't make sense.

Custodes attack Chapters when they have REASON to. Consequences doesn't provide a reason at all.

and that the background stories exist primarily to give a setting to explore on the tabletop, in our imaginations and in the expanded writings available, both professionally and amateur. There is no requirement for the level of internal consistency he seems to be seeking, and I would argue that this would in fact be detrimental to the setting, and to the hobby as a whole.

If wanting a reason for why two armies are fighting is "detrimental to the setting", I'm rather glad I don't play with you.

Even if the reason is as simple as "they are fighting over the last banana on the planet", that's better than "Custodes attacks because STORY SAYS SO".

Didn't SGT_Smudge say something about Space Marines agreeing to be tested before they were sent to their death? So Space Marines put down their weapons, went through vigorous testing(eventually fabricated), and then agreed to fly to their deaths in the warp without resisting? Could it be that chapters agree to be tested and evaluated by the Inquisition and that's why the Custodes don't try to kill all the original chapters that the geneseed originates from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Even if the reason is as simple as "they are fighting over the last banana on the planet", that's better than "Custodes attacks because STORY SAYS SO".

Or Custodes attacks because Space Marine fails to follow order and is showing they are a heretic. If the Space Marine knew they weren't traitors why would they resist? The other Space Marine chapters that have been accused of heresy have gone through testing without resisting? It isn't logical that they would resist when they know they aren't tainted.

The question I was answering was:

“If the Custodes wanted to kill Space Marines, they could. Why don’t they?”

As for the rest of your post, I have been reading your posts, I have already addressed the point you are repeating, and you didn’t agree with my view, which is your right. I didn’t feel the need to repeat myself for the sake of perpetuating an argument when it is pretty clear we have differing opinions and as far as I can see we aren’t going to convince each other.

However, as you asked, I’ll summarise briefly (please correct me if I misunderstood):

- overall you like the story, as do I.
- you feel that grey shields and belonging to a chapter are mutually exclusive, I don’t.
- you feel the Custodes was unprovoked and acted out of character/illogically regarding established lore. I don’t.
- I feel that the fact that the Greyshields en-route to join the brazen Drakes have been assigned to that chapter is sufficient for them to be considered heretics by the Custodes Officer alongside the rest of the chapter who the haven’t yet met. You disagree.
-you feel the removal of the term Greyshields from the short story would improve your enjoyment of the story, I feel that this would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the story.

Does that sound about right?

As for saying there was no justification for the Custodes to behave the way he did, we fundamentally disagree. From where I stand, we are at an impass so I thought there would be no benefit in repeating the same views to each other time and again.

As for playing each other, I think it’s unfortunate you wouldn’t want to play against me as I’m sure we’d have a great time playing a game and bickering over the points of the lore we like/dislike etc, but each to their own.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

Spoiler:

 harlokin wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.

For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.

The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.

Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.

The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.

Didn't SGT_Smudge say something about Space Marines agreeing to be tested before they were sent to their death? So Space Marines put down their weapons, went through vigorous testing(eventually fabricated), and then agreed to fly to their deaths in the warp without resisting? Could it be that chapters agree to be tested and evaluated by the Inquisition and that's why the Custodes don't try to kill all the original chapters that the geneseed originates from?

So why haven't the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, etc been thrown into the Warp on Chapter-wide penitent Crusades then?

And again, I hasten to remind you, the ONLY reason the Chapters of the Abyssal Crusade were even tested in the first place was because there was a cause to suspect their treason. The Greyshields don't have a reason to be suspected, therefore, the Custodian had no in-character reason to demand their testing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


Even if the reason is as simple as "they are fighting over the last banana on the planet", that's better than "Custodes attacks because STORY SAYS SO".

Or Custodes attacks because Space Marine fails to follow order and is showing they are a heretic.

Missing my point, but I'll correct my statement to make it clearer:
"Custodes ACCUSES because story says so". There. Better?

The Marines failing to follow orders is grounds for the attack, yes. However, there are no grounds for the Custodian calling the Marines traitors in the first place.

If the Space Marine knew they weren't traitors why would they resist? The other Space Marine chapters that have been accused of heresy have gone through testing without resisting? It isn't logical that they would resist when they know they aren't tainted.

It wasn't a case of "if you don't resist, we'll find you innocent". It was a case of "you're already traitors, now let's decide how we want to kill you - suicide via crusade, or execution".

You make it sound like there was ever a chance for the Greyshields to be seen as innocent. The Custodian's first words disprove that. He *starts* proceedings by calling them traitors. Not "oh, just surrender and we'll examine your case" or "let's see if you're innocent or not".

Again, to make it clear, the Marines resisting is their problem, but that doesn't change that the Custodian acted without any reason to suspect them in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
The question I was answering was:

“If the Custodes wanted to kill Space Marines, they could. Why don’t they?”

Yes, but the important part is apparently, in your version of 40k, they shouldn't need any proof or reason to suspect them, and should immediately be calling all Space Marines traitors.

It's not that Custodes don't attack Marines. They absolutely do - but they do it because they have founded suspicions, unlike in this story.

However, as you asked, I’ll summarise briefly (please correct me if I misunderstood):

- overall you like the story, as do I.
- you feel that grey shields and belonging to a chapter are mutually exclusive, I don’t.
- you feel the Custodes was unprovoked and acted out of character/illogically regarding established lore. I don’t.
- I feel that the fact that the Greyshields en-route to join the brazen Drakes have been assigned to that chapter is sufficient for them to be considered heretics by the Custodes Officer alongside the rest of the chapter who the haven’t yet met. You disagree.
-you feel the removal of the term Greyshields from the short story would improve your enjoyment of the story, I feel that this would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the story.

Does that sound about right?

Sort of. You're missing the point that my arguments are backed up by sources in the lore where distinctions like Greyshields being distinct from a Chapter or Custodians actually being somewhat rational by Imperial standards are canon.

I don't "feel" that Greyshields are distinct in the same way I don't "feel" that Ultramarines are blue. They flat out are.

Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy? The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?



Not sure why this is so confusing to you. The Custodes doesn't care if they are connected or not. He is not going to bring reinforcements to the planet for a chapter going to heresy. What should he do? Leave them on the ships to potentially take the ships while he goes to the planet and then gets stabbed in the back? Obviously his intuition told him to suspect them and they resisted and started fighting on the ships!. Intuition is a real thing. Generally based on the experiences of someone who has seen a scenario play out multiple times over and over again.

I didn’t miss that you have other lore sources, I just didn’t think it necessary to mention it when summarising you’re position, but yes, you have referenced multiple sources. Clearly I don’t hold them in the same esteem as you.

Equally, Ultramarines are not always blue, throughout multiple rule books, codexes and expansions space marine chapters are specifically mentioned as adapting the colour of their armour to what is most suited to their environment, desert camo, urban warfare, etc.

My view of the lore in general is a large and expansive setting/sand box where I’m perfectly willing to accept internal inconsistencies, unreliable narrators, blatant contradictions and failures of logic in the service of the themes of the setting and the stories we make up in those settings. I enjoy suspending my disbelief in this way for this setting in a way I wouldn’t necessarily for another (when reading the Tolkien legendarium I thoroughly enjoying it being as internal consistent as possible, and an disappointed when this internal consistency fails).

As such, I have no issue in going along with this story where Greyshields are considered as part of the brazen drakes by the Custodes Officer. Equally I am willing to accept that there might be more going on than has initially been presented to the reader, especially since this is a short story and not a novel.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?

Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.

The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?

There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.

They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.

Not sure why this is so confusing to you. The Custodes doesn't care if they are connected or not.

So why isn't this Custodian also going out and declaring the Ultramarines as traitors if he doesn't give a hoot about needing a reason?

Like, just to make this clear, you're saying that it would be completely in-character for him, with no provocation at all, to accuse every Space Marine in the galaxy of heresy?

He is not going to bring reinforcements to the planet for a chapter going to heresy. What should he do? Leave them on the ships to potentially take the ships while he goes to the planet and then gets stabbed in the back?

Well, I'll tell you what he's not going to do - accuse them of being traitors when they have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes! But, since you asked, here are some things he *could* do:
- Detain them *without calling them traitors*. Use some of that famous Custodes diplomacy and stall for time while conducting tests.
- Lead the Greyshields into battle against the Brazen Drakes. If they resist, then you have your reason to suspect them.
- Exterminatus the Brazen Drakes, and escort the Greyshields back to Guilliman, who can reassign them to a new Chapter.

There are plenty of things the Custodian could and should have done instead of "hahahaha this completely unrelated army MUST be related to the Brazen Drakes!"

Obviously his intuition told him to suspect them and they resisted and started fighting on the ships!. Intuition is a real thing. Generally based on the experiences of someone who has seen a scenario play out multiple times over and over again.

But what intuition was there? What reason was there to suspect them?

He had as much reason to suspect the Greyshields as he did the Sisters of Silence. Why didn't he accuse them of corruption as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
I didn’t miss that you have other lore sources, I just didn’t think it necessary to mention it when summarising you’re position, but yes, you have referenced multiple sources. Clearly I don’t hold them in the same esteem as you.

I'm just saying, but I've been the only one to mention sources *why* I support my position, and the validity of those sources.

Equally, Ultramarines are not always blue, throughout multiple rule books, codexes and expansions space marine chapters are specifically mentioned as adapting the colour of their armour to what is most suited to their environment, desert camo, urban warfare, etc.

Yes, but they're not bright yellow, are they?

You know what my point is - Ultramarines are blue, not the bright yellow of the Imperial Fists, in the same way that the Greyshields are not the same as Brazen Drakes.

This is not an Ultramarine.

My view of the lore in general is a large and expansive setting/sand box where I’m perfectly willing to accept internal inconsistencies, unreliable narrators, blatant contradictions and failures of logic in the service of the themes of the setting and the stories we make up in those settings. I enjoy suspending my disbelief in this way for this setting in a way I wouldn’t necessarily for another (when reading the Tolkien legendarium I thoroughly enjoying it being as internal consistent as possible, and an disappointed when this internal consistency fails).

As such, I have no issue in going along with this story where Greyshields are considered as part of the brazen drakes by the Custodes Officer.

Whereas I dislike the general idea that 40k has no internal consistency. I'm completely fine with vague stories, or conflicting report-style extracts. But 3rd person omniscient stories like Consequences don't have that degree of separation.
By all means, I respect headcanons and personal interpretations in the face of existing canon (my own Primaris have female Astartes, which isn't directly supported by canon). But I don't agree with blatant contradictions and authors flat out seeming to fail to understand certain concepts.

Equally I am willing to accept that there might be more going on than has initially been presented to the reader, especially since this is a short story and not a novel.

I'm willing to be open to that, but I'm working on what we're told. I'm not going to act like there's some piece that fits the puzzle until I see it.
If there's some future revelation that actually, the Greyshields on that ship *did* have communications, and the Custodian knew about those communications, I'd take it back. But that's not what we've got.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?

Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.

The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?

There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.

They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.

The Inquisition made that call, not the Custodian. In fact, I'd argue the inquisition made that call and sent the message to the ship directly. It wasn't "Sir we've intercepted a transmission saying they're traitors" it's "sir, a message addressed to this very ship says the Brazen Drakes are traitors." That's not the Captains' call, that's the Inquisition's.

If you have a problem with the Inquistion making that call, then that's on you. Just know that to further fear them is redundant, and to hate them is heretical. As for the space wolves? They had badly-written plot armor thicker than the Brazen Drakes that deflected what should have been a fatal blow and that's crap writing.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not sure why this is so confusing to you. The Custodes doesn't care if they are connected or not.

So why isn't this Custodian also going out and declaring the Ultramarines as traitors if he doesn't give a hoot about needing a reason?

Like, just to make this clear, you're saying that it would be completely in-character for him, with no provocation at all, to accuse every Space Marine in the galaxy of heresy?

He is not going to bring reinforcements to the planet for a chapter going to heresy. What should he do? Leave them on the ships to potentially take the ships while he goes to the planet and then gets stabbed in the back?

Well, I'll tell you what he's not going to do - accuse them of being traitors when they have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes! But, since you asked, here are some things he *could* do:
- Detain them *without calling them traitors*. Use some of that famous Custodes diplomacy and stall for time while conducting tests.
- Lead the Greyshields into battle against the Brazen Drakes. If they resist, then you have your reason to suspect them.
- Exterminatus the Brazen Drakes, and escort the Greyshields back to Guilliman, who can reassign them to a new Chapter.

There are plenty of things the Custodian could and should have done instead of "hahahaha this completely unrelated army MUST be related to the Brazen Drakes!"

Obviously his intuition told him to suspect them and they resisted and started fighting on the ships!. Intuition is a real thing. Generally based on the experiences of someone who has seen a scenario play out multiple times over and over again.

But what intuition was there? What reason was there to suspect them?

He had as much reason to suspect the Greyshields as he did the Sisters of Silence. Why didn't he accuse them of corruption as well?

God you are dense. The Shield-Captain didn't declare them traitors, the Inquisition did. It wasn't like the Shield-Captain was like "oh, there's fighting on the planet below, I bet these guys are TRAITORS TOO RAAAWR!". He was merrily going about his business when the vessel received a transmission from the inquisition saying that the Brazen Drakes were traitors. I quote from the story:

Consequences wrote:Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’

The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.

Emphasis mine. I'll repeat it again for ya: IT COULD NOT BE AN ERROR. Because the Inquisition never makes mistakes (except when they attack a target armored with plot).

So what was the Shield Captain supposed to do? Call the Ordo Hereticus up on his cell phone and be like "hey, so, um, Greyshields, are they - y'know - also Heretics? I mean, they're not really with the chapter, but kinda are. I mean they've adopted their livery and stuff, but like, technically - oh darn they're taking over the fleet, pardon me Inquisitor."

Instead, he asks the Greyshields to disarm, which I don't think is unreasonable at all. It's even lenient within the setting, as the story helpfully points out, and he offers that option twice.

I appears you are willing to die on the hill that since these marines were called Greyshields they can't be Brazen Drakes. And yet the story uses both Brazen Drakes and Greyshields both in conjunction with each other and interchangeably.

"The world of Khassedur had been their destination through long months of toil and trial, across blazing battlefields and amidst the teeth of ferocious warp storms. Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle."

This 4th paragraph tells so much about the attitudes of the characters involved. Everyone on the ship, including the Greyshields themselves, has seen these marine in actions across various battlefields operating as Brazen Drakes. Everyone sees them as Brazen Drakes. Even their actions later in the story shows they feel it themselves. Even a loyalist will be loath to believe their brothers in arms are traitors.

So maybe, just maybe Greysheilds has more than on narrow meaning. Maybe, just maybe there is more to the choice of words of "Brazen Drakes Greyshields" than you are giving credit to. Maybe GW did this on purpose to add to the lore about Greyshields, not in defiance of what you believe it to be.

And that is the tragedy here. A bunch of Primaris Greyshield have rebuilt their identities as Brazen Drakes and finally arrive at their new home to finally inducted into their new chapter only to find themselves in the inconcieveable situation of finding their new identity to be that of a traitor. Cue the bolters.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?

Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.

The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?

There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.
They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.

The Inquisition made that call, not the Custodian. In fact, I'd argue the inquisition made that call and sent the message to the ship directly. It wasn't "Sir we've intercepted a transmission saying they're traitors" it's "sir, a message addressed to this very ship says the Brazen Drakes are traitors." That's not the Captains' call, that's the Inquisition's.

If you have a problem with the Inquistion making that call, then that's on you. Just know that to further fear them is redundant, and to hate them is heretical. As for the space wolves? They had badly-written plot armor thicker than the Brazen Drakes that deflected what should have been a fatal blow and that's crap writing.

What?? The Inquisition declares the Brazen Drakes as traitors. Not the Greyshields.

There's literally no reason the Greyshields should be suspected of anything.

God you are dense. The Shield-Captain didn't declare them traitors, the Inquisition did.

Read the first line. Read it again. Read it a third time, just to get it in.

"Apprehend these traitors." Those are the Custodian's own words to the Greyshields. That is the Shield-Captain calling the Greyshields traitors. The Inquisition never mentioned the Greyshields.

It wasn't like the Shield-Captain was like "oh, there's fighting on the planet below, I bet these guys are TRAITORS TOO RAAAWR!".

Except it literally is. The guys with him aren't the same guys as the ones on the planet.

He was merrily going about his business when the vessel received a transmission from the inquisition saying that the Brazen Drakes were traitors. I quote from the story:

Consequences wrote:Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’

The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.

Emphasis mine.

Great, you can read! But that doesn't change the fact that the Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.

So why does the Custodian accuse the Greyshields of corruption?

So what was the Shield Captain supposed to do? Call the Ordo Hereticus up on his cell phone and be like "hey, so, um, Greyshields, are they - y'know - also Heretics? I mean, they're not really with the chapter, but kinda are. I mean they've adopted their livery and stuff, but like, technically - oh darn they're taking over the fleet, pardon me Inquisitor."

The Greyshields are no closer to the Chapter than his own Custodes or the Sisters of Silence are. Why doesn't Tyvar arrest the Sisters?

They weren't taking over the fleet until Tyvar calls them traitors without reason.

He asks the Greyshields to disarm, which I don't think is unreasonable at all.

Except he doesn't. Use that ability to read the extract, and tell me what the first line is again?
Not "disarm these potential traitors".

"Apprehend these traitors."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
I appears you are willing to die on the hill that since these marines were called Greyshields they can't be Brazen Drakes. And yet the story uses both Brazen Drakes and Greyshields both in conjunction with each other and interchangeably.

Author error. They're not infalliable.

In all previous works, Greyshields are not considered parts of the Chapters they are sent to prior to their arrival.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?

Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.

The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?

There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.
They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.

The Inquisition made that call, not the Custodian. In fact, I'd argue the inquisition made that call and sent the message to the ship directly. It wasn't "Sir we've intercepted a transmission saying they're traitors" it's "sir, a message addressed to this very ship says the Brazen Drakes are traitors." That's not the Captains' call, that's the Inquisition's.

If you have a problem with the Inquistion making that call, then that's on you. Just know that to further fear them is redundant, and to hate them is heretical. As for the space wolves? They had badly-written plot armor thicker than the Brazen Drakes that deflected what should have been a fatal blow and that's crap writing.

What?? The Inquisition declares the Brazen Drakes as traitors. Not the Greyshields.

The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There's literally no reason the Greyshields should be suspected of anything.

Except for them being Brazen Drakes, and the Brazen Drakes being traitors, of course.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

God you are dense. The Shield-Captain didn't declare them traitors, the Inquisition did.

Read the first line. Read it again. Read it a third time, just to get it in.

"Apprehend these traitors." Those are the Custodian's own words to the Greyshields. That is the Shield-Captain calling the Greyshields traitors. The Inquisition never mentioned the Greyshields.

It wasn't like the Shield-Captain was like "oh, there's fighting on the planet below, I bet these guys are TRAITORS TOO RAAAWR!".

Except it literally is. The guys with him aren't the same guys as the ones on the planet.

He was merrily going about his business when the vessel received a transmission from the inquisition saying that the Brazen Drakes were traitors. I quote from the story:

Consequences wrote:Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’

The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.

Emphasis mine.

Great, you can read! But that doesn't change the fact that the Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.

So why does the Custodian accuse the Greyshields of corruption?

Because the story says that the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes. The fact that you think this is impossible despite the people in charge of the lore explicitly stating it is incomprehensible to me. Your fan-fiction that Greyshields aren't also part of the Chapter shouldn't be used to demean this story.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

So what was the Shield Captain supposed to do? Call the Ordo Hereticus up on his cell phone and be like "hey, so, um, Greyshields, are they - y'know - also Heretics? I mean, they're not really with the chapter, but kinda are. I mean they've adopted their livery and stuff, but like, technically - oh darn they're taking over the fleet, pardon me Inquisitor."

The Greyshields are no closer to the Chapter than his own Custodes or the Sisters of Silence are. Why doesn't Tyvar arrest the Sisters?

They weren't taking over the fleet until Tyvar calls them traitors without reason.

It's not Tyvar who calls them traitors, it's the Inquisition.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

He asks the Greyshields to disarm, which I don't think is unreasonable at all.

Except he doesn't. Use that ability to read the extract, and tell me what the first line is again?
Not "disarm these potential traitors".

"Apprehend these traitors."

Apprehend is essentially the same thing. It's lenient for 40k because it isn't "execute".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I appears you are willing to die on the hill that since these marines were called Greyshields they can't be Brazen Drakes. And yet the story uses both Brazen Drakes and Greyshields both in conjunction with each other and interchangeably.

Author error. They're not infalliable.

In all previous works, Greyshields are not considered parts of the Chapters they are sent to prior to their arrival.

Just finished the Valdor book.... it makes what happened here even dimmer haha

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
Told to put down their weapons to be taken into custody. Pretty simple.

"Apprehend these traitors."

If they weren't Brazen Drakes why does the Captain tell his forces to consider everyone not a Brazen Drake hostile? Or should we blame the author for writing that rather than Greyshields?

Yes, actually. Clearly, the author doesn't understand what a Greyshield is.

Lets scale this back. He isn't accusing anyone of heresy.

"Apprehend these traitors."

Read the first line again.

He received a message that the Brazen Drakes were traitors.

And there are no Brazen Drakes on that ship.

- He tried to detain them. They refused and that led to the conflict.

He declared that they were traitors.

- And risk getting shot in the back. Yeah this is a non-starter

He is just as likely to be shot in the back by his own Custodes or Sisters of Silence as he is by the Greyshields, under the information he actually has.

- You honestly believe after reading the story the Brazen Drakes on the ship won't join sides with their Chapter on the planet and fight back? Did we read the same story?

I'm saying the Custodian had no way of knowing that prior to him making the first move and accuse them of heresy.

Once the Custodian plays his hand, the Marines make their allegiance clear. But that wasn't the case prior to the Custodian's involvement.

Because one of those forces he is bringing as reinforcements to the traitors on the planet and the other is the Sisters of Silence.

So two unrelated factions. Thank you for proving my point.

If he asked the Sisters of Silence to surrender their weapons and they resisted he probably would have killed them as well. I just don't see them resisting.

But why didn't he ask, when he had equal reason to suspect them?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.

Goto was very explicit that Storm Bolters are pistols, Marines use multilazors, and chainfists can't cut through barbed stranger webs.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.

Goto was very explicit that Storm Bolters are pistols, Marines use multilazors, and chainfists can't cut through barbed stranger webs.

Yes, and it has since been retconned. Once it's retconned that Greyshields may, in some situations, be members of their chapter (or considered members of their chapter than the wider Imperium) then I'll consider that the new lore as well.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.

I disagree. All previous work indicates that they are considered distinct. I'm inclined to believe the author made a simple mistake.

Except for them being Brazen Drakes, and the Brazen Drakes being traitors, of course.

Except they're not Brazen Drakes.

Because the story says that the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes. The fact that you think this is impossible despite the people in charge of the lore explicitly stating it is incomprehensible to me.

Ah, like backflipping Terminators? Multilazors on everything?

Your fan-fiction that Greyshields aren't also part of the Chapter shouldn't be used to demean this story.

You mean the fanfiction like Dark Imperium, the White Dwarf Flesh Tearers extract, and Of Honour and Iron?
The story is incorrect. No big deal, right?

It's not Tyvar who calls them traitors, it's the Inquisition.

"Apprehend these (Greyshields) traitors."
The Inquisition never mentioned Greyshields.

Apprehend is essentially the same thing. It's lenient for 40k because it isn't "execute".

"Apprehend these TRAITORS".

Ah, yes, GW made an error when publishing the lore, rather than them simply changing the lore. I see. Your picture of the lore that they own is so comprehensive and complete that it must be them who are wrong.

What is that, like, three recently made publications supporting Greyshields being distinct and individual, versus one webstory?

Sure thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.

Goto was very explicit that Storm Bolters are pistols, Marines use multilazors, and chainfists can't cut through barbed stranger webs.

Yes, and it has since been retconned. Once it's retconned that Greyshields may, in some situations, be members of their chapter (or considered members of their chapter than the wider Imperium) then I'll consider that the new lore as well.

Once it's retconned, yes. But that's not happened yet.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.

I disagree. All previous work indicates that they are considered distinct. I'm inclined to believe the author made a simple mistake.

A simple mistake subsequently published by GW, so it's more canon than your headcanon.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Except for them being Brazen Drakes, and the Brazen Drakes being traitors, of course.

Except they're not Brazen Drakes.

Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Because the story says that the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes. The fact that you think this is impossible despite the people in charge of the lore explicitly stating it is incomprehensible to me.

Ah, like backflipping Terminators? Multilazors on everything?

Your fan-fiction that Greyshields aren't also part of the Chapter shouldn't be used to demean this story.

You mean the fanfiction like Dark Imperium, the White Dwarf Flesh Tearers extract, and Of Honour and Iron?
The story is incorrect. No big deal, right?

Those were published earlier. Retcons are a thing in fictional universes. There's also a few assumptions that can be made to square the circle here, but you're unwilling to consider reasonable assumptions since they're not written there in black and white. So there it is, in black and white - these Greyshields are Brazen Drakes.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

It's not Tyvar who calls them traitors, it's the Inquisition.

"Apprehend these (Greyshields) traitors."

Now who's adding words to the text?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Inquisition never mentioned Greyshields.

No, it mentioned the Brazen Drakes, which these Greyshields are, as is clear from the story.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Apprehend is essentially the same thing. It's lenient for 40k because it isn't "execute".

"Apprehend these TRAITORS".

Well, yes, the Brazen Drakes are traitors and these Greyshields are Brazen Drakes. It's fairly obvious.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Ah, yes, GW made an error when publishing the lore, rather than them simply changing the lore. I see. Your picture of the lore that they own is so comprehensive and complete that it must be them who are wrong.

What is that, like, three recently made publications supporting Greyshields being distinct and individual, versus one webstory?

If quantity mattered at all for retcons, then Disney's movies would be less canon than Star Wars's EU.

There's also a few reasonable assumptions to get around the issue and make it not a retcon, but again, you're unwilling to think past what's on the page.

Unit1126PLL wrote:A simple mistake subsequently published by GW, so it's more canon than your headcanon.

Canon backflipping Terminators.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Except for them being Brazen Drakes, and the Brazen Drakes being traitors, of course.

Except they're not Brazen Drakes.

Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true.

Exactly. So why are people saying the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes?

Those were published earlier. Retcons are a thing in fictional universes. There's also a few assumptions that can be made to square the circle here, but you're unwilling to consider reasonable assumptions since they're not written there in black and white. So there it is, in black and white - these Greyshields are Brazen Drakes.

Just like those black and white backflipping Terminators?

Three modern pieces, versus one webstory. I think I know which I'm going to put more faith in, until things get further developed.

Now who's adding words to the text?

I didn't add anything. I clarified for you what the Custodian was saying, seeing as you seem to be missing it.

No, it mentioned the Brazen Drakes, which these Greyshields are, as is clear from the story.

Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.

It's fairly obvious.

I think it's more obvious the author made a mistake, myself.

If quantity mattered at all for retcons, then Disney's movies would be less canon than Star Wars's EU.

Context is a lovely thing, isn't it? It's almost like purchasing a new property and explicitly declaring a new canon is different to one single webstory.

There's also a few reasonable assumptions to get around the issue and make it not a retcon, but again, you're unwilling to think past what's on the page.

Oh, I know. I've presented several reasonable assumptions and solutions myself, yet people just don't seem to be a fan.

You can't say I haven't tried.

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid.

At this point, you're repeating your lies (as well as bringing in a whataboutism from Goto) and I'm just gonna keep calling them false. That's not a productive discussion; good luck.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.

You're wrong. In the story the Captain refers to himself as a Brazen Drake. The author refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships several times. The Custodes also refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships as Brazen Drakes. The only person insisting they are Greyshields and not Brazen Drakes is you. For some reason you have it in your head despite all the evidence that these Space Marines are not Brazen Drakes. Its all over the short story. I listed it out earlier and yet you still don't understand that concept. 13 times!!!

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
You're wrong. In the story the Captain refers to himself as a Brazen Drake. The author refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships several times. The Custodes also refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships as Brazen Drakes. The only person insisting they are Greyshields and not Brazen Drakes is you. For some reason you have it in your head despite all the evidence that these Space Marines are not Brazen Drakes. Its all over the short story. I listed it out earlier and yet you still don't understand that concept. 13 times!!!

Yup. And in every other story that mentions Greyshields, they are notably distinct and unrelated from their parent Chapter until they are properly integrated.

Your only source for Greyshields being connected is this one story. Mine is a series of them, in a variety of major and minor publications.
I think I know which one I'm going to pay more attention to.

I don't care what's all over the short story. I care what's mentioned elsewhere. It's far more likely that one author is wrong instead of three.