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Rogal Dorn is supposed to be the living embodiment of a fortress. Immense, powerful, but unyielding and unwilling to compromise.

I think of him as being like Stannis Baratheon. Stannis has few friends and allies, but he has principles. He will not bend, he can only break.

He's fairly badly written by Black Library, but that goes for most of the Primarchs.

 torgoch wrote:
Rogal Dorn is supposed to be the living embodiment of a fortress. Immense, powerful, but unyielding and unwilling to compromise.

I think of him as being like Stannis Baratheon. Stannis has few friends and allies, but he has principles. He will not bend, he can only break.

He's fairly badly written by Black Library, but that goes for most of the Black Library.

Fixed that for you.

 torgoch wrote:
I think of him as being like Stannis Baratheon. Stannis has few friends and allies, but he has principles. He will not bend, he can only break.

Book Stannis, that is! But you're not far wrong on that. Stannis had a temper, but he was fair with it (he was happy to punish his own troops for crimes, even if their actions benefited him).

I'm not sure if there's a ASOIAF character who Guilliman aligns with?

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

How is Dorn mentally unstable?

He's petulant and violent, as seen when he nearly beat Garro to death for relaying a message he didn't like. He literally repressed being beaten halfway to death by Konrad Curze and nearly had a mental breakdown when he recalled it. He locked all of his Librarians in a basement in the Phalanx after the Edict of Nikaea and left them there for years. He sleeps with his adoptive father's fur robe (aka a security blanket). And yes, he's such an Anger Management starring Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson headcase he got baited into throwing his Legion into a meatgrinder by Perturabo and continued doing so when it became apparent it was a trap. And then there's the inconvenient fact that he essentially self-harms.

Dorn is interesting because he's not obviously unhinged the way Angron or Curze are, but any close examination of his actions reveal him to be fething bonkers.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Pretty sure DA and SW being on the way to force Horus' gambit goes back as far as 3rd edition. Maybe even 2nd.

I think it was first mentioned early in 2nd edition. This short story was published in WD in 1993 (I think). I quoted the bit about the DAs and SWs previously.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/514769/battle-holy-terra-short-story

Bran Dawri wrote:
Because the HH writers don't like the SW, they've been replaced with the Ultramarines, but the basic structure stands.

I think the HH writers saw the SWs as too "nice". A bunch of heroic, beer-swilling Space Vikings who always help the underdogs were felt to be just a bit too NobleBright. So they went out of their way to darken them in the GC and HH with the whole "Executioners" theme. The idea being that it would then show their evolution into the more idealistic SWs we see in 40K.

Yeahhhh, that just means they never really looked past their own preconceptions of the Wolves. If you think a horde of brutally combat-efficient barbarians who regularly take up arms against their own side for sometimes no better reason than an insult are too NobleBright, I dunno.

Besides, I liked the bloodyminded, intractable Space Vikings who don't take crap from anyone, and the way the old codices laid out the broad strokes of the Heresy, at least made narrative sense. The Horus Heresy series on the other hand, changes things that were perfectly fine and turn them into things that make no sense even at a passing glance.
Anyway, let's not hijack the thread.

/rant over.

Aash wrote:

 torgoch wrote:


He's fairly badly written by Black Library, but that goes for most of the Black Library.

Fixed that for you.

Ha, very true! They have hired some dreadful dreadflul hacks.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 torgoch wrote:
I think of him as being like Stannis Baratheon. Stannis has few friends and allies, but he has principles. He will not bend, he can only break.

Book Stannis, that is! But you're not far wrong on that. Stannis had a temper, but he was fair with it (he was happy to punish his own troops for crimes, even if their actions benefited him).

I'm not sure if there's a ASOIAF character who Guilliman aligns with?

Good question. Is he closest to Mormont (a great fighter, a great organiser, who rules but not does desire title or kingship) or his he more Tywin Lannister (the marshaller of vast resources). I guess it depends on how sinister a slant you take on his character

Does that make Horus Daenerys?

The problem is all of the characters in ASOIAF have flaws. Guilliman doesn't, so he doesn't really have a counterpart unlike the other Primarchs who did have flaws.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem is all of the characters in ASOIAF have flaws. Guilliman doesn't, so he doesn't really have a counterpart unlike the other Primarchs who did have flaws.

Eh, he has flaws. He's not massively liked by his brothers (as in, he lacks the charisma to lead other Primarchs), and is a victim of his own compulsions towards order, structure and logic.
Yes, his flaws aren't are horrendously crippling as many others, but he's not flawless.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem is all of the characters in ASOIAF have flaws. Guilliman doesn't, so he doesn't really have a counterpart unlike the other Primarchs who did have flaws.

Eh, he has flaws. He's not massively liked by his brothers (as in, he lacks the charisma to lead other Primarchs), and is a victim of his own compulsions towards order, structure and logic.
Yes, his flaws aren't are horrendously crippling as many others, but he's not flawless.

It’s not a lack of charisma that makes them hate him. It’s always come across as petty jealousy.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem is all of the characters in ASOIAF have flaws. Guilliman doesn't, so he doesn't really have a counterpart unlike the other Primarchs who did have flaws.

Eh, he has flaws. He's not massively liked by his brothers (as in, he lacks the charisma to lead other Primarchs), and is a victim of his own compulsions towards order, structure and logic.
Yes, his flaws aren't are horrendously crippling as many others, but he's not flawless.

It’s not a lack of charisma that makes them hate him. It’s always come across as petty jealousy.

The impression I've always gotten is that Guilliman just isn't *popular*. Think of him as the guy in school or at work who does a great job, overachieves, always has a plan, generally well put together - but the guy just over from him is just likeable. Sure, Guilliman-guy might be incredibly pleasant to speak to, they don't brush you off, they're always attentive and responsive, but they're not *charismatic*, they don't have that kind of magnetism.

Guilliman has more personality, that says it all. Plus Dorn is scared of Curze after being hospitalized by him with his bare teeth.