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Primaris already are chaos.
That is what Tzeentch told me.

I'm ambivalent about it. Considering that I've already got new chaos marine sculpts I can't see GW investing in new minis so it would probably be something like Fallen where we get a codex entry and that's it. Which is boring.

On the flipside if they do make new sculpts that's landing us in the boat as regular SMs feeling like their old stuff is being invalidated.

As for the actual topic - I don't think Chaos need Primaris VOTLW. Primaris Marine Traitors from the new foundings? Absolutely plausible.

Fair point ...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:By your logic:
GW once published a model Space Marine on a dogsled.
Therefore, if GW published an entire army of Space Marines on dogsleds, A+ from you.

Something happening once does not mean that it becoming a trend is somehow not different. Basic statistics here. Outlier =/= trend.

It's more like, if GW made a Space Marine on a dogsled, and then they make others Marines on a dogsled, claiming that having dogsleds "isn't a Marine thing" or "isn't part of their aesthetic" is wholly inaccurate. It's not very fair to complain that "dogsleds don't belong to Space Marines" when they've historically had them.

But, we've had this discussion before. It doesn't need to be repeated.

As for the actual topic - I don't think Chaos need Primaris VOTLW. Primaris Marine Traitors from the new foundings? Absolutely plausible.

Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference? And it's still a case of just taking something Imperial and adding spikes.

Add a wound to cult troops and chosen and make chosen a troops choice for the non-aligned legions. Point them accordingly. Done.

Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Just the ones Fabius made in the Heresy era after intercepting a communication from Guilliman to Cawl ... Turns out, he's had them stashed in stasis tubes for ... Even as a joke I can't say it ...

Tycho wrote:

Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Just the ones Fabius made in the Heresy era after intercepting a communication from Guilliman to Cawl ... Turns out, he's had them stashed in stasis tubes for ... Even as a joke I can't say it ...

The tubes he got from trollzyn? You know the younger Brother of trayzin?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Just the ones Fabius made in the Heresy era after intercepting a communication from Guilliman to Cawl ... Turns out, he's had them stashed in stasis tubes for ... Even as a joke I can't say it ...

The tubes he got from trollzyn? You know the younger Brother of trayzin?

Damnit! How many times do I have to tell you guys?

Don't. Give. Gw. Ideas.

Atleast we would get a partially working csm troop without having to blast any stalingrad Movie Soundtrack whilest playing red corsairs to Make them work.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Atleast we would get a partially working csm troop without having to blast any stalingrad Movie Soundtrack whilest playing red corsairs to Make them work.

Ha. Well played.

Table wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Atleast we would get a partially working csm troop without having to blast any stalingrad Movie Soundtrack whilest playing red corsairs to Make them work.

Ha. Well played.

It's pun tastic but i only realised it afterwards because i indeed own such a army but yes that is about the only time i got value out off my csm.

Gadzilla666 wrote:Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Considering that there's less than a 1000 Dark Angels, and they have a full Codex, all you need is one Ultima Founding Chapter to turn traitor, and that's enough to numerically make a difference. In fact, all you need to have turn traitor is an Apothecary with the knowledge and resources to make Primaris.

Bile allready exists.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Considering that there's less than a 1000 Dark Angels, and they have a full Codex, all you need is one Ultima Founding Chapter to turn traitor, and that's enough to numerically make a difference. In fact, all you need to have turn traitor is an Apothecary with the knowledge and resources to make Primaris.

That's still not enough to have them showing up in legions and warbands regularly, much less the ones more resistant to change. Black Legion would definitely take all they could. But the Night Lords? Ehhh.

Personally I just don't like the idea of the legions just copying the Imperium in everything. I like the idea of the grizzled old veterans taking on the new blood. It gives csm and loyalists a different feel. Of course that may just be me.

I sure as hell don't want them...

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Considering that there's less than a 1000 Dark Angels, and they have a full Codex, all you need is one Ultima Founding Chapter to turn traitor, and that's enough to numerically make a difference. In fact, all you need to have turn traitor is an Apothecary with the knowledge and resources to make Primaris.

That's still not enough to have them showing up in legions and warbands regularly, much less the ones more resistant to change. Black Legion would definitely take all they could. But the Night Lords? Ehhh.

30k Night Lords were happy to take a Raven Guard into their ranks, and even as far as their elite officer cadre. 40k Night Lords are no strangers to cannibalising goods. If Primaris are effective (and they are), why would they turn down useful resources?

Personally I just don't like the idea of the legions just copying the Imperium in everything. I like the idea of the grizzled old veterans taking on the new blood. It gives csm and loyalists a different feel. Of course that may just be me.

I'd ideally like to see Chaos split into two Codexes, or even something as simple as Space Marines being able to replace their <Imperium> keyword with <Chaos>, but cannot become a Traitor Legion.

Ideally, something along the lines of Chaos Space Marine Faction keywords being <Chaos, Traitoris Astartes, LEGION> and <Chaos, Heretic Astartes, WARBAND>. Traitoris Astartes would be largely everything in the current CSM book (Chosen taking the place of regular CSM, Havocs, Raptors, Terminators, Possessed, etc etc), representing the VOTLW and would generally be more skilled, but maybe have less access to fancy tech, but instead more daemonic tools and gifts. Heretic Astartes would literally just be Codex: Space Marines, but with alliance to Chaos keywords, a Relic and psychic power swap, modifying the Chaplain Litanies to be more Chaos-y, and some small Daemonic enhancements here and there.

Basically, Chaos Space Marines get both representation as the true VOTLW, and the more recently turned ex-Imperials, which make up a considerable portion of the CSM ranks.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Considering that there's less than a 1000 Dark Angels, and they have a full Codex, all you need is one Ultima Founding Chapter to turn traitor, and that's enough to numerically make a difference. In fact, all you need to have turn traitor is an Apothecary with the knowledge and resources to make Primaris.

That's still not enough to have them showing up in legions and warbands regularly, much less the ones more resistant to change. Black Legion would definitely take all they could. But the Night Lords? Ehhh.

30k Night Lords were happy to take a Raven Guard into their ranks, and even as far as their elite officer cadre. 40k Night Lords are no strangers to cannibalising goods. If Primaris are effective (and they are), why would they turn down useful resources?

Personally I just don't like the idea of the legions just copying the Imperium in everything. I like the idea of the grizzled old veterans taking on the new blood. It gives csm and loyalists a different feel. Of course that may just be me.

I'd ideally like to see Chaos split into two Codexes, or even something as simple as Space Marines being able to replace their <Imperium> keyword with <Chaos>, but cannot become a Traitor Legion.

Ideally, something along the lines of Chaos Space Marine Faction keywords being <Chaos, Traitoris Astartes, LEGION> and <Chaos, Heretic Astartes, WARBAND>. Traitoris Astartes would be largely everything in the current CSM book (Chosen taking the place of regular CSM, Havocs, Raptors, Terminators, Possessed, etc etc), representing the VOTLW and would generally be more skilled, but maybe have less access to fancy tech, but instead more daemonic tools and gifts. Heretic Astartes would literally just be Codex: Space Marines, but with alliance to Chaos keywords, a Relic and psychic power swap, modifying the Chaplain Litanies to be more Chaos-y, and some small Daemonic enhancements here and there.

Basically, Chaos Space Marines get both representation as the true VOTLW, and the more recently turned ex-Imperials, which make up a considerable portion of the CSM ranks.

Does SlayerFan know you're stealing his ideas?

I could get behind that, except compensating the legions for loss of equipment with daemonic tools and gifts, as it goes against the fluff for some legions. The legions should have access to Heresy era equipment, as they currently do. It makes more sense for them to have it than loyalists.

I just want chosen that actually represent "veteran" chaos marines. Maybe give them another attack and wound...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Does SlayerFan know you're stealing his ideas?

Ooops!
Accidental, I assure you!

I could get behind that, except compensating the legions for loss of equipment with daemonic tools and gifts, as it goes against the fluff for some legions. The legions should have access to Heresy era equipment, as they currently do. It makes more sense for them to have it than loyalists.

True, but in the same vein, are they able to maintain it? I personally prefer my idea of VOTLW as being stripped down to their essential gear, but being tremendously skilful with it, and having various chaos-blessed and enhanced weaponry (whether they're aware of it or not, in the case of Night Lords and Iron Warriors). Obviously things like Apothecaries should be in, but Land Speeders and Javelin bikes? I'm not sure. Although if loyalists get Cataphractii and Tartaros, so should VOTLW.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Does SlayerFan know you're stealing his ideas?

Ooops!
Accidental, I assure you!

I could get behind that, except compensating the legions for loss of equipment with daemonic tools and gifts, as it goes against the fluff for some legions. The legions should have access to Heresy era equipment, as they currently do. It makes more sense for them to have it than loyalists.

True, but in the same vein, are they able to maintain it? I personally prefer my idea of VOTLW as being stripped down to their essential gear, but being tremendously skilful with it, and having various chaos-blessed and enhanced weaponry (whether they're aware of it or not, in the case of Night Lords and Iron Warriors). Obviously things like Apothecaries should be in, but Land Speeders and Javelin bikes? I'm not sure. Although if loyalists get Cataphractii and Tartaros, so should VOTLW.

Yes, they have warpsmiths, hellwrites ,and slaves to maintain their arms. And, of course, the dark mechanicus is a thing, even if it isn't represented on the table top.

And we do get Heresy pattern terminator armour. We just don't get special rules for them. Practically all my terminators are cataphractii and tartaros.

I am not a fan of the Primaris look and didn't buy any, so wouldn't likely get any Primaris CSM either if they were similar aesthetically. I'd really have to see the models.

That being said, out of all the factions that could do this upsizing, Chaos is the second easiest, lore wise, right? "Warp be crazy how it do that".

Thematically I wouldn't mind Death Guard getting some if anything just to give Death Guard something else thats decently tanky + damage dealy + DR. They need something shooty to make them better. If its in the form of corrupt/revived Primaris then so be it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:Yes, but how many chapters of primaris would have to go renegade in order for them to be numerically significant enough to actually make a difference?

Considering that there's less than a 1000 Dark Angels, and they have a full Codex, all you need is one Ultima Founding Chapter to turn traitor, and that's enough to numerically make a difference. In fact, all you need to have turn traitor is an Apothecary with the knowledge and resources to make Primaris.

That's still not enough to have them showing up in legions and warbands regularly, much less the ones more resistant to change. Black Legion would definitely take all they could. But the Night Lords? Ehhh.

30k Night Lords were happy to take a Raven Guard into their ranks, and even as far as their elite officer cadre. 40k Night Lords are no strangers to cannibalising goods. If Primaris are effective (and they are), why would they turn down useful resources?

Personally I just don't like the idea of the legions just copying the Imperium in everything. I like the idea of the grizzled old veterans taking on the new blood. It gives csm and loyalists a different feel. Of course that may just be me.

I'd ideally like to see Chaos split into two Codexes, or even something as simple as Space Marines being able to replace their <Imperium> keyword with <Chaos>, but cannot become a Traitor Legion.

Ideally, something along the lines of Chaos Space Marine Faction keywords being <Chaos, Traitoris Astartes, LEGION> and <Chaos, Heretic Astartes, WARBAND>. Traitoris Astartes would be largely everything in the current CSM book (Chosen taking the place of regular CSM, Havocs, Raptors, Terminators, Possessed, etc etc), representing the VOTLW and would generally be more skilled, but maybe have less access to fancy tech, but instead more daemonic tools and gifts. Heretic Astartes would literally just be Codex: Space Marines, but with alliance to Chaos keywords, a Relic and psychic power swap, modifying the Chaplain Litanies to be more Chaos-y, and some small Daemonic enhancements here and there.

Basically, Chaos Space Marines get both representation as the true VOTLW, and the more recently turned ex-Imperials, which make up a considerable portion of the CSM ranks.

Legions will need some serious buffing for that to happen, But yes, its been a pretty solid ask for many years that chaos renegades get their own codex and legions get theirs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Does SlayerFan know you're stealing his ideas?

Ooops!
Accidental, I assure you!

I could get behind that, except compensating the legions for loss of equipment with daemonic tools and gifts, as it goes against the fluff for some legions. The legions should have access to Heresy era equipment, as they currently do. It makes more sense for them to have it than loyalists.

True, but in the same vein, are they able to maintain it? I personally prefer my idea of VOTLW as being stripped down to their essential gear, but being tremendously skilful with it, and having various chaos-blessed and enhanced weaponry (whether they're aware of it or not, in the case of Night Lords and Iron Warriors). Obviously things like Apothecaries should be in, but Land Speeders and Javelin bikes? I'm not sure. Although if loyalists get Cataphractii and Tartaros, so should VOTLW.

Also, the new lore for Legions has Night Lords and Iron Warriors seriously calm down about their not jiving with the chaos gods. Both legions have quite a few demon princes and many demon engines. I guess they want to dumb down the lore so they dont have to put out new codexs for each as thats what they would need to work on a TT level with that lore.

Table wrote:
Also, the new lore for Legions has Night Lords and Iron Warriors seriously calm down about their not jiving with the chaos gods. Both legions have quite a few demon princes and many demon engines. I guess they want to dumb down the lore so they dont have to put out new codexs for each as thats what they would need to work on a TT level with that lore.

That's bullgak. You don't need a special codex to give the legions good rules and lore, or to specify which units they can or can't take. You can do it for all nine in just one. The 3.5 codex did just that.

 Ouze wrote:
That being said, out of all the factions that could do this upsizing, Chaos is the second easiest, lore wise, right?

They don't even need the lore to justify it, given that GW have been stealth increasing the scale of Marines since long before Primaris came to the party. The newer CSM kit are almost as big, and significantly taller than the previous kit. No warp shenanigans required.

Rahdok wrote:
Thematically I wouldn't mind Death Guard getting some if anything just to give Death Guard something else thats decently tanky + damage dealy + DR. They need something shooty to make them better. If its in the form of corrupt/revived Primaris then so be it.

I'd settle for Death Guard Chaos Lords/Sorcerers getting the same rules as everyone else, and maybe allowing Death Guard to not forget who they are if they bring a unit of Daemons from their own Codex.

Mortarion being able to fight alongside units he invented himself would also be nice.

 Jidmah wrote:
Mortarion being able to fight alongside units he invented himself would also be nice.

Do you mean Obihörnchen?

Someone made Chaos Primaris: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/07/26/marc-busings-alpha-legion-kill-teamgw-homepage-post-3/

It's probably been touched on before, but I think stealing Primaris bodies/research would be a good way to go further down the Possessed angle. Fabius and some of his compatriots use the new, strengthened Astartes frames/tech to provide a sturdier host for possession. Maybe it improves the chances of stable possessions, making them more common in forces.

Definitely anything but Primaris with spikes.

Although I don’t like primaris and the way they were introduced, I think gulf wise it only makes sense that primaris find their way into CSM somehow. I thought there was something in the story that suggested that primaris could not be corrupted???? Otherwise why wouldn’t some of them eventually turn renegade. Also Fabius would be drooling over them as a mad scientist. But if primaris show up in CSM as a mirror of the SM primaris it will really piss me off.

I think the suggestion is that they will fill the role of Fabius biles new men. So I’m hoping for some sort of genetic monstrosity where Fabius has had to come up with his own method installing the new organs into existing CSMs or some other unlucky soul. I assume he doesn’t have access to the rubicon primaris.

What I wonder is how GW expect the CSMP to fit into an army of their warlord is FB because does not have either the slaneesh or emperors children key word.

I also expect FB will have used the primaris to give himself some upgrades

An interesting twist would be allowing primaris for renegades only, but not for legions.