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 Ishagu wrote:
Someone in my local runs 60 Chaos Marines in a list and they do a job most games. Still leaves 1300 points in his army for other units. There are ways you can make them work if you're willing to try.

Yes, stacking buffs and strategems. We don't want that. Nor fldo we want csm to be a horde army. We're not asking for op power, just accurate representation of the army that doesn't rely on ridiculous gamey combos. And your local meta isn't a representation of the game as a whole.

 Ishagu wrote:
Plague Marines and Thousand Sons are good PA troops.

Also Chaos are evolving into a pretty different faction in terms of play. The loyalist Primaris really are a low model, elite army. You can run the Chaos marines as a horde faction of Cultists supported by elite infantry units like Oblits and powerful characters.

Yeah, it's real real great. I pay 17ppm for my S4 Ap-2 boltguns, and when I play against primaris, starting turn two they've got...S4 Ap-2 boltguns, that's weird, and huh, they have 30" range, look at that...also two wounds? Also full to-hit rerolls? Looks like to-wound rerolls too? Oh, and they get two separate chapter tactics that affect their whole army as well, my chapter tactic works on a grand total of 10 models in my whole list, so that's neat.




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 Ishagu wrote:
Elite infantry with 1 wound works pretty well with Sisters of Battle.

Do you have much experience with that army? They aren't top-tier-crush-everything but they play very well.
That's a great looking and great playing army.

So the humble chaos marine isn't the most powerful Troop unit in the game? That's fair. Chaos Terminators and Oblits are great however, what's wrong with them?

TIL 9ppm troops are now "elite infantry" and not "2ppm more than an ork boy"


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 Ishagu wrote:


You don't see me asking for loyalist Oblits for my Ultramarines!

What is a centurion, trebek!

A Centurion is not an Obliterator. No teleportation in the core rules. No close combat ability in the variant with higher quality weapons.

 Ishagu wrote:
A Centurion is not an Obliterator. No teleportation in the core rules. No close combat ability in the variant with higher quality weapons.

Doesn't change the fact that centurions are loyalist oblits. Would you say Havocs are not csm devastators because devastators don't have T5 or reaper chaincannons and havocs don't have ammo runts?

Plague Marines and Thousand Sons are good PA troops.

Not to pile on here, but as others have said - no. In a vacuum? Sure. Not bad. In a actual game where Primaris exist? They're just not that good. Tsons and DG are the two armies I play most. In a friendly game where people are just bringing what they like and not really "going for the kill" they perform fairly well. I often take both types of marines in my lists because I get tired of horeds of cultists/Poxwalkers/Tzangors/, so I know they work ok-ish against some things and in certain situations. But take those same lists to a larger tournament and you'll see what the others are talking about. In the larger competitive meta, both Rubrics and PMs are over-costed and die far too easily. PMs especially have issues as they don't have enough strats to keep them alive long enough. A 5+ DR is better than nothing, but watch what happens to that 5+ when even a large-ish squad of Ork Boyz fires at it ...

Sounds like you won't be happy unless Chaos are the most powerful faction in every measure?
Sure, Raven Guard and Iron Hands are very powerful but there are plenty of Chaos Lists that can compete with all of the other chapters with no problem.

You want the factions to be mirrors of each other, with units that play exactly the same? That's the worst possible outcome.

You don't see me asking for loyalist Oblits for my Ultramarines!

Even as a Chaos player, I'm one of the first people (lately at least) to say "Chaos players are never happy", and that's honestly pretty accurate. That said, that isn't what's happening here. No one in this thread appears to want Iron Hands levels of OP. Also no. There are not "Plenty of Chaos lists that compete with all the other chapters no problem".

I feel like what we see here is a result of a split in design philosophy that has Loyalists designed for strong competitive play, and CSM designed for fluff and narrative play, and that's the biggest issue. It's great that you don't want "oblits" for your Ultras. Because Oblits kind of suck. Especially when you have everything Centurions can do ...

I, and many of the others in this thread have simply said that we would like a way out of the basic marine stat line, as that stat line really doesn't work anymore. It actually hasn't worked in a while. I don't want a 1-to-1 copy of Primaris - I would prefer a CSM style unit that isn't shoe-horned in like Primaris were, but the fact is CSM need some help right now, and this would be a good way to boost their relative power level while also getting actual marines on the field. It's pretty telling that, for three straight editions now, the vast majority of competitive CSM lists start with 30-60 cultists/cultist equivalent, and take very few to zero actual marines. If that doesn't tell you the CSM troop choice is a bit buggered, then nothing will.

The basic marine stat line works fine, it's just that the Intercessors break troop balance by taking a dump on what should be the advantages of other factions.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The basic marine stat line works fine, it's just that the Intercessors break troop balance by taking a dump on what should be the advantages of other factions.

It might if the deadliness of the game was dialed wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back.

Personally speaking, I think marines do....ok with bolter discipline and shock assault bolstering their deadliness (which was way too low with basic bolter lads before IMO) but I'd much prefer bolter discipline get replaced with something that does not encourage super static play.

Because holy hell am I sick of playing with and against marine armies that just camp the feth out in cover the whole game shooting their boltguns because they have no reason to move thanks to bolter discipline.

I do think a niche potentially exists for MEQ since a lot of anti tank/anti-elite weapons lose effectiveness against their 1W, the problem is just how much 1 or 2 points of AP reduces their defenses.

Every time I play deathwatch or thousand sons, they feel perfectly fine defensively as elite troops. so I think just a small defense bonus of some sort would go a long way.

 Ishagu wrote:

Karol wrote:
Aren't loyalist obliterators, just centurions?

If they could teleport in and shoot twice then yes.

Unfortunately Centurions are only strong in chapters that can manipulate movement. They are poor in an Ultramarine army, as an example.

You know what I would like? For loyalist Terminators to have access to combi weapons, and for loyalists to be able to run auxiliary human troops, and for them not to lose special rules when they ally with other factions. Chaos has all those advantages. It's what makes the factions different.

well if oblits aren't slanesh they can't shot twice either, so I don't get the argument that for ultramarines centurions work different. Although I don't play chaos or normal marines, so my view could be skewed here. Both oblits and centurions seemt o have good shoting and okey melee. Sure centurions got nerfed a bit, but they are still IMO good. And if someone wants to deep strike them, then they can just play RG or RG successors.

I also don't understand the argument about humans in chaos. Yes they can take cultists, but chaos players take them, because csm are just bad for the points they cost. And again this is only my opinion if a chaos space marine army tries to have as few chaos space marines in it, them there is something wrong with the core idea of the whole army. It is like in my army the most iconic troop unit, makes zero sense to be run. So it is not like GW did this only to chaos marines.

Sure, so we can have 2 damage spam all the time. :\

Karol wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:

Karol wrote:
Aren't loyalist obliterators, just centurions?

If they could teleport in and shoot twice then yes.

Unfortunately Centurions are only strong in chapters that can manipulate movement. They are poor in an Ultramarine army, as an example.

You know what I would like? For loyalist Terminators to have access to combi weapons, and for loyalists to be able to run auxiliary human troops, and for them not to lose special rules when they ally with other factions. Chaos has all those advantages. It's what makes the factions different.

well if oblits aren't slanesh they can't shot twice either, so I don't get the argument that for ultramarines centurions work different. Although I don't play chaos or normal marines, so my view could be skewed here. Both oblits and centurions seemt o have good shoting and okey melee. Sure centurions got nerfed a bit, but they are still IMO good. And if someone wants to deep strike them, then they can just play RG or RG successors.

I also don't understand the argument about humans in chaos. Yes they can take cultists, but chaos players take them, because csm are just bad for the points they cost. And again this is only my opinion if a chaos space marine army tries to have as few chaos space marines in it, them there is something wrong with the core idea of the whole army. It is like in my army the most iconic troop unit, makes zero sense to be run. So it is not like GW did this only to chaos marines.

Hey, speak for your own loyalists. My loyalist terminators can take combi-weapons, can run auxiliary human troops, and don't lose any special rules when they ally with other factions.

Also TFW the special rules you lose when you ally with other factions as space marines are special rules CSM just don't get anyway Oh so sad for your poor loyalists!

SW termintors can take combi weapons right?

Karol wrote:
SW termintors can take combi weapons right?

yep, and DW.

But different armies should have different things! Some armies get doctrines! Some armies get jack gak! Actually, most armies get jack gak! Perfectly balanced, as all things should be :O)

The basic marine stat line works fine, it's just that the Intercessors break troop balance by taking a dump on what should be the advantages of other factions.

I don't think it does. CSM haven't used basic marines in ages because cultists have been better in every way since 6th. When you look at pre-Primaris armies from the previous few editions, it was typically scouts instead of standard marines. This is because the basic marine stat line really is lacking at its current points level. It should be telling that Chaos hasn't used its marines in ages, and the very instant loyalists had a chance to take something other than basic marines, they switched almost instantly.


I'm also not sure how Primaris "take a dump on what should be the advantages of other factions" either. If anyone should have had two wounds all along, it was the marines ...

If your complaint is more about the strats they get, then maybe there's more of a point there, but it's like I said before, the new Marine book is one of the few times we've seen GW make a book that appeared to be aimed more at competitive play rather than just "fluff" and narrative. Whether they did that on purpose or not is a completely different question, but personally, I'd rather see all the other armies in the game get brought UP to that level, rather than pulling someone else DOWN to a lower level ...

 Ishagu wrote:
Someone in my local runs 60 Chaos Marines in a list and they do a job most games. Still leaves 1300 points in his army for other units. There are ways you can make them work if you're willing to try.

In a casual setting, that's probably fine. Lists like that aren't surviving tournaments. We certainly haven't seen anything resembling such a list place well anywhere.

 Ishagu wrote:
Plague Marines and Thousand Sons are good PA troops.

They "eh", and they're not a fit for more Chaos Space Marine armies.

Also Chaos are evolving into a pretty different faction in terms of play. The loyalist Primaris really are a low model, elite army. You can run the Chaos marines as a horde faction of Cultists supported by elite infantry units like Oblits and powerful characters.

You *can* run Chaos that way, but it's not the intended design goal, it's just one of the few builds that actually works in the current competitive meta, it's not really how they're intended to operate as a whole. Chaos Space Marines aren't supposed to be a horde army, and in fact in previously had been portrayed as more elite than the loyalists often (with Horus Heresy veterans and powerful enhanced Cult troops).

That's exactly what csm should be. More elite than loyalists because they've been fighting for thousands of years constantly. Not 60 mooks that get shot down in droves by primaris marines that have existed less time than the csm' bolter shells.

Tycho wrote:

The basic marine stat line works fine, it's just that the Intercessors break troop balance by taking a dump on what should be the advantages of other factions.

I don't think it does. CSM haven't used basic marines in ages because cultists have been better in every way since 6th. When you look at pre-Primaris armies from the previous few editions, it was typically scouts instead of standard marines. This is because the basic marine stat line really is lacking at its current points level. It should be telling that Chaos hasn't used its marines in ages, and the very instant loyalists had a chance to take something other than basic marines, they switched almost instantly.

I can't agree, as I've played a "basic marine" heavy army for many editions now, and done pretty well with them. Not to mention when I played my Chaos army I also ran the Power Armor swarm plenty of success. And keep in mind the basic marine statline covers Sternguard, Devastators, Command Squads etc. All of which function just fine. Imo Tacs are great, but of course nobody takes them in 8th because Intercessors are incredibly easy to use. Just plop them in cover and fire away at 30" AP-2. Tacs require . . . like . . . actual thinking, like most other troop choices in the game.

I'm also not sure how Primaris "take a dump on what should be the advantages of other factions" either. If anyone should have had two wounds all along, it was the marines ...

30" basic guns like Tau, more resilient than Necrons, same number of Attacks as Orks. It's bad form, imo.

As for two wounds, lore-wise I think Orks have a tendency to shrug off wounds that are just as devastating as marines. And if Marines get pumped to 2W Necrons absolutely should be 2 as well. So then what, pump bolters to do 2D? There are lots of issues when moving to the 2W stat.

Imo marines are pretty well balanced with Bolter Discipline, the bonus charge Attack, etc. The Doctrines (not Super Doctrines) are fine for loyalists, I'd advocate some different set of advantages for Chaos.

If your complaint is more about the strats they get, then maybe there's more of a point there, but it's like I said before, the new Marine book is one of the few times we've seen GW make a book that appeared to be aimed more at competitive play rather than just "fluff" and narrative. Whether they did that on purpose or not is a completely different question, but personally, I'd rather see all the other armies in the game get brought UP to that level, rather than pulling someone else DOWN to a lower level ...

My issue with Intercessors has 0 to do with Strats. The fundamentals come before the bells and whistles.

I'm ok with the notion of bringing other things up a level, but that's a muuuuch larger undertaking. Like full re-write levels of involvement.


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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's exactly what csm should be. More elite than loyalists because they've been fighting for thousands of years constantly. Not 60 mooks that get shot down in droves by primaris marines that have existed less time than the csm' bolter shells.

Imo CSM should run the gamut from less-than loyalists to more-than loyalists at the discretion of the player. From minimal gear and worse morale to more customizable gear, marks, Ld and veterancy bonuses. Ye olde 3.5 had it right.

I can't agree, as I've played a "basic marine" heavy army for many editions now, and done pretty well with them. Not to mention when I played my Chaos army I also ran the Power Armor swarm plenty of success. And keep in mind the basic marine statline covers Sternguard, Devastators, Command Squads etc. All of which function just fine. Imo Tacs are great, but of course nobody takes them in 8th because Intercessors are incredibly easy to use. Just plop them in cover and fire away at 30" AP-2. Tacs require . . . like . . . actual thinking, like most other troop choices in the game.

This is a fair point on Sternguard, etc. I do have a very lazy habit of saying "MEQ" or "basic marine statline", when I should be saying "Tacticals". So that's my bad. That said, I would argue "no one takes tacs in 8th" because honestly, they really aren't all that good for the price. Even when Intercessors were considered "inferior" to Tacs at the start of their release, you still saw people taking Scouts instead of Tacs. They just don't cut it anymore and haven;t for a while in most situations. You're paying too many points for that 3+ save. A save that, in recent editions, really isn't what it used to be. And Tacs at least have a plethora of good rules they can use. The CSM troops don't even have that. So what do you do? Make Intercessors worse? I would rather just see them give CSM a troop choice outside of cultists that is properly functional. Swarm Marines don't even do well in my meta and it's nowhere near as competitive as a lot of others. It's too killy an edition. Red Corsairs have some fun things they can do, but even that starts to get flimsy.

30" basic guns like Tau, more resilient than Necrons, same number of Attacks as Orks. It's bad form, imo.

But Necrons have needed a fix for some time, so again, it's not a case of "Intercessors screwed the pooch and have to be made worse." It's a case of "Hey - it's time to update Necrons. We can argue all day long on Orks, and there's probably no right or wrong answer here, but I think a basic boy having the same number of attacks as a Intercessor is probably about right.

As for two wounds, lore-wise I think Orks have a tendency to shrug off wounds that are just as devastating as marines. And if Marines get pumped to 2W Necrons absolutely should be 2 as well. So then what, pump bolters to do 2D? There are lots of issues when moving to the 2W stat.

I think Orks and 'crons are finne at 1 wound. Crons should have multiple other ways to stay alive (they currently don't but that's a problem for a Necron update - NOT an issue w/Primaris Marines), and Orks, while capable of surviving grievous wounds also go into battle largely unarmored and don't regenerate instantly. Yeah, if I cut off a War Boss head, he'll survive a transplant to another body, but he's done fighting that day ...

Like I said before, I feel like a lot of people are blaming Intercessors for creating problems they actually have nothing to do with. Most of the issue is that we have other units that have languished for far too long without a update. Primaris are a symptom. NOT the actual disease imo.

Imo marines are pretty well balanced with Bolter Discipline, the bonus charge Attack, etc. The Doctrines (not Super Doctrines) are fine for loyalists, I'd advocate some different set of advantages for Chaos.

Not sure what you mean? Are you saying CSM shouldn't get a Primaris equivalent OR doctrines, etc? Because that's exactly what happened with the recent "2.0" book. We got a "different set of advantages". Competitively speaking, it didn't end well. I actually think the current CSM book is my favorite in several editions, and am quite happy with it, but I feel for the players who are trying to make them work in tougher gaming environs.

Imo CSM should run the gamut from less-than loyalists to more-than loyalists at the discretion of the player. From minimal gear and worse morale to more customizable gear, marks, Ld and veterancy bonuses. Ye olde 3.5 had it right.

Yeah. This. I mean, I do think it was a little OP for the time, but I don't think any other CSM codex has quite nailed CSM and all their crazy options like that one did ...

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's exactly what csm should be. More elite than loyalists because they've been fighting for thousands of years constantly. Not 60 mooks that get shot down in droves by primaris marines that have existed less time than the csm' bolter shells.

Imo CSM should run the gamut from less-than loyalists to more-than loyalists at the discretion of the player. From minimal gear and worse morale to more customizable gear, marks, Ld and veterancy bonuses. Ye olde 3.5 had it right.

Exactly. Bring back veteran abilities and give the legions rules that actually show the difference in how they fight.

Lol what are these magical games where Intercessors break the game?

Iron Hands invul and FNP bubble needs looking at, I agree. Outside of that?

They are a good unit, costed correctly.

 Ishagu wrote:
Lol what are these magical games where Intercessors break the game?

Iron Hands invul and FNP bubble needs looking at, I agree. Outside of that?

They are a good unit, costed correctly.

No, they don't break the game. But they ruin the character of other elite factions by being far and away superior to those faction's troops choices, and in many cases their elite infantry options.

Which is the question at hand: do csm players want this imbalance addressed merely by giving us our own traitor primaris, or would we prefer rules that make our current, more fluff accurate options a match for primaris? I for one prefer the latter option.

Some intercessors are costed correctly. Others, not so much. They shouldn't all cost the same.

I'm gonna say that if they implement them especially with like Mortarion making his comeback and all that Death Guard would see the first Primaris marines. I looked more into it and it wouldn't take much for Nurgle's Gift to take em over and BAM DG Primaris.

Tycho wrote:

I can't agree, as I've played a "basic marine" heavy army for many editions now, and done pretty well with them. Not to mention when I played my Chaos army I also ran the Power Armor swarm plenty of success. And keep in mind the basic marine statline covers Sternguard, Devastators, Command Squads etc. All of which function just fine. Imo Tacs are great, but of course nobody takes them in 8th because Intercessors are incredibly easy to use. Just plop them in cover and fire away at 30" AP-2. Tacs require . . . like . . . actual thinking, like most other troop choices in the game.

This is a fair point on Sternguard, etc. I do have a very lazy habit of saying "MEQ" or "basic marine statline", when I should be saying "Tacticals". So that's my bad. That said, I would argue "no one takes tacs in 8th" because honestly, they really aren't all that good for the price. Even when Intercessors were considered "inferior" to Tacs at the start of their release, you still saw people taking Scouts instead of Tacs. They just don't cut it anymore and haven;t for a while in most situations. You're paying too many points for that 3+ save. A save that, in recent editions, really isn't what it used to be. And Tacs at least have a plethora of good rules they can use. The CSM troops don't even have that. So what do you do? Make Intercessors worse? I would rather just see them give CSM a troop choice outside of cultists that is properly functional. Swarm Marines don't even do well in my meta and it's nowhere near as competitive as a lot of others. It's too killy an edition. Red Corsairs have some fun things they can do, but even that starts to get flimsy.

I'm all for CSM to have better representation.

Tycho wrote:

30" basic guns like Tau, more resilient than Necrons, same number of Attacks as Orks. It's bad form, imo.

But Necrons have needed a fix for some time, so again, it's not a case of "Intercessors screwed the pooch and have to be made worse." It's a case of "Hey - it's time to update Necrons. We can argue all day long on Orks, and there's probably no right or wrong answer here, but I think a basic boy having the same number of attacks as a Intercessor is probably about right.

I think you're conflating two things here. There was a desire expressed for basic marines to have two wounds. I reject the idea that the baseline marine (not Intercessors) be more resilient than a Necron, because Necrons as a faction have an identity of resilience.

Then there is an additional issue is that Intercessors can now be seen as the new "core marine". So they do actually exacerbate the problem. I agree that Necrons should be better than they are, too. It's related.

Tycho wrote:

As for two wounds, lore-wise I think Orks have a tendency to shrug off wounds that are just as devastating as marines. And if Marines get pumped to 2W Necrons absolutely should be 2 as well. So then what, pump bolters to do 2D? There are lots of issues when moving to the 2W stat.

I think Orks and 'crons are finne at 1 wound. Crons should have multiple other ways to stay alive (they currently don't but that's a problem for a Necron update - NOT an issue w/Primaris Marines), and Orks, while capable of surviving grievous wounds also go into battle largely unarmored and don't regenerate instantly. Yeah, if I cut off a War Boss head, he'll survive a transplant to another body, but he's done fighting that day ...

Like I said before, I feel like a lot of people are blaming Intercessors for creating problems they actually have nothing to do with. Most of the issue is that we have other units that have languished for far too long without a update. Primaris are a symptom. NOT the actual disease imo.

@Orks: Orks not wearing armor is accounted for by their lack of armor save. As for "instant regeneration". . . I dunno man, when their surgery is sawing limbs off without anasthetic and then nailing/screwing/welding/stapling a shiny new bionic limb on, I'm not fond of the idea that core marine units are somehow twice as resilient. If you cut of a Primaris head, he too ought to be done fighting for that day, and really, done fighting period.

@Intercessors: They aren't independent things, Intercessors are part of the problem because they exist as a core unit and people use them a lot. Xenos players have to contend with Intercessors all the time. I'm all for boosting some other units too. I'm very fond of the idea that a number of weapons be boosted, honestly. When I started this game in 2nd Ed, Heavy Bolters did D4 damage a shot. Assault Cannons did D10. However, I don't really care how a better balance is achieved though. At the end of the day I want every faction to have core units that are capable in their unique ways. That gets drowned out when the popular troop choice of the most popular faction roflstomps the rest of them at their own game.

Tycho wrote:

Imo marines are pretty well balanced with Bolter Discipline, the bonus charge Attack, etc. The Doctrines (not Super Doctrines) are fine for loyalists, I'd advocate some different set of advantages for Chaos.

Not sure what you mean? Are you saying CSM shouldn't get a Primaris equivalent OR doctrines, etc? Because that's exactly what happened with the recent "2.0" book. We got a "different set of advantages". Competitively speaking, it didn't end well. I actually think the current CSM book is my favorite in several editions, and am quite happy with it, but I feel for the players who are trying to make them work in tougher gaming environs.

Then it wasn't done right. As I say above, I'm all for a more competitive CSM unit entry.



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 Ishagu wrote:
Lol what are these magical games where Intercessors break the game?

I'm not saying they break the break the game from a competitive standpoint. I'm saying they **** on the narrative of other factions.

Looking at your Fire Warriors/Necron Warriors/Dire Avengers/Boyz/Whatever, and seeing that Intercessors are just better in every way, sucks for the narrative of your faction. The "special" feeling behind those core units is lost. Tau sucking in CC but having this awesome rifle is a great faction identity. . . until Intercessors get an 30" AP-2 fire twice capability. Then it's not so special, because you see Intercessors everywhere.

 Insectum7 wrote:


Looking at your Fire Warriors/Necron Warriors/Dire Avengers/Boyz/Whatever, and seeing that Intercessors are just better in every way, sucks for the narrative of your faction. The "special" feeling behind those core units is lost. Tau sucking in CC but having this awesome rifle is a great faction identity. . . until Intercessors get an 30" AP-2 fire twice capability. Then it's not so special, because you see Intercessors everywhere.

Aye, they are wonderful examples of peak bloat and stat inflation. Not so long ago, a unit like that would have been a limited and expensive Elites or even HS unit (due to the range), not an affordable Troops option.

They are costed correctly.

510 points for 30 Intercessors. 700 points for 60 Chaos Marines.

60 pa bodies are overall more resilient than 30 Intercessors due to multi damage weapons being so common.

But shouldn't you be comparing 500pts of intercessors and 500pts of csm? the intercessors are more efficient and not less resilient then 500pts of csm. And there are more way to play them then csm. I am not even sure there is a good way to play csm. I only see stuff like zerkers, possessed, heroes and vehicles being used, almost never csm. People they cultists over them.

I mentioned 60 because I personally know someone who runs that many in a list.

You know how in 40k if you take a single tank it will get destroyed or fail in it's role, but if you take 3 they are very effective? 1 is none, 2 is some, etc.

You need to apply that rule to PA troops, and account for the lethality in the game. This isn't 5th edition. 15 Chaos Marines are not enough unless you're farming CP. Bring 60, reach the critical mass where they become a real danger to the enemy. 60 PA bodies supported by elite units and vehicles become a problem. They can be overwhelming especially if you have to divert firepower to other threats.

 Ishagu wrote:
I mentioned 60 because I personally know someone who runs that many in a list.

You know how in 40k if you take a single tank it will get destroyed or fail in it's role, but if you take 3 they are very effective? 1 is none, 2 is some, etc.

You need to apply that rule to PA troops, and account for the lethality in the game. This isn't 5th edition. 15 Chaos Marines are not enough unless you're farming CP. Bring 60, reach the critical mass where they become a real danger to the enemy. 60 PA bodies supported by elite units and vehicles become a problem. They can be overwhelming especially if you have to divert firepower to other threats.

I run a horde list of CSM, as allready mentioned in this thread. No most definetly , the same can be done better with Culitsts make no mistake, and culitsts are the runt of the litter of 4ppm horde models with inherently weaker morale and durability.

I would actually agree that disposable horde models are perhaps too cheap.

I would have preferred to see Cultists and Guardsmen, as well as some other cheap options to have a cost increase.

 Ishagu wrote:
I would actually agree that disposable horde models are perhaps too cheap.

I would have preferred to see Cultists and Guardsmen, as well as some other cheap options to have a cost increase.

Cultists i their state now are fine, guardsmen you can debate, especially because what the hell is the role of conscripts.

However, CSM hordes only work if you run not into any marine army. AP-1 overall really hurts even if you avidly recycle. Meanwhile if you matchup into Tau that is a diffrent tale.
Something like that shouldn't be the case yet it is.