I REALLY hope Aaron Dembski-Bowden is writing the last SoT book.

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**changemod**

jareddm wrote:
changemod wrote:
Bowden should be the very last person to be allowed anywhere near the final duel, given his need to squeeze rampant Abbaddon fanboyism into everything.
Other than in the Black Legion series, which as a faction revolve around Abaddon, where exactly is he squeezing Abaddon fanboyism into?

I mean, did you not see all the Drachnyen stuff in master of mankind?

That’s without getting into his online presence.

**BrianDavion**

changemod wrote:
jareddm wrote:
changemod wrote:
Bowden should be the very last person to be allowed anywhere near the final duel, given his need to squeeze rampant Abbaddon fanboyism into everything.
Other than in the Black Legion series, which as a faction revolve around Abaddon, where exactly is he squeezing Abaddon fanboyism into?

I mean, did you not see all the Drachnyen stuff in master of mankind?

That’s without getting into his online presence.

I did, but I didn't see that as rabid fanboyism, nor I suspect did most of us. It was a neat bit of background data. (it's also possiable ABD was just laying some ground work for a future black legion novel)

**Duskweaver**

changemod wrote:
I mean, did you not see all the Drachnyen stuff in master of mankind?

Not sure what you mean. Drach'Nyen has been described as a unique and massively powerful artefact since it was first introduced in 2nd edition. It was never just another bog-standard daemon sword.

To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

**Void__Dragon**

Duskweaver wrote:
The point I was making is that a lot of readers seem not to get what ADB is trying to do in his writing. He is not a believer in one-true-wayism. He likes to leave some room for ambiguity and mystery.

The Emperor might be an evil (but strangely incompetent) megalomaniac who sees his 'sons' as just expendable tools to enable his domination of the galaxy. Or he might be a tragic (and tragically flawed) hero who selflessly sacrificed himself in a doomed attempt to free his species from the Dark Gods.

But a lot of 40K fans don't seem to like that sort of ambiguity. And childish, postmodern cynicism is 'in' right now, so there's a tendency to emphasise the bits that make the Emperor look evil or selfish or stupid, and ignore all the rest. Hence people focusing on that scene with Arkhan Land and ignoring all the rest of the stuff in that book where ADB suggests that people only percieve the Emperor through the lens of their own hopes and prejudices, not as he actually is.

And I'm sure that, if ADB does end up writing the Emp/Horus duel, the same sort of thing will happen again. He will drop vague but interesting hints and leave a lot to our imaginations, and 90% of readers will just jump straight to the most stupid and cynical interpretation (and insist that their interpretation is unambiguous canon).

(Incidentally, If I were to write that scene, I'd actually describe the whole thing twice, from the PoV of two different characters, one a loyalist and one a follower of Horus. In the loyalist's PoV, the Emperor would be a saintly figure, a loving father pleading with his wayward son; in the Horus-follower's PoV, he'd be a coldly arrogant tyrant addressing Horus with a sneer as "Number Sixteen, the most flawed of all my creations", and ordering him to surrender or be put down like a rabid canine. With the implication that both versions are equally 'true'.)

Please stop trying to deflect criticisms of ADB with the assertion that people just aren't smart enough to understand the work of a somewhat better than average pulp writer buddy, it's really foolish.

Oh, and the bits that make the Emperor look "evil or selfish or stupid" aren't given secondhand, they are first-hand accounts of dealings with the Emperor. If other scenes contradict that heavily then that's just bad and inconsistent writing my friend, not "ambiguity or mystery". I haven't gotten around to reading Master of Mankind so I hope it's not as bad as you seem to be implying.

**pm713**

Duskweaver wrote:
changemod wrote:
I mean, did you not see all the Drachnyen stuff in master of mankind?

Not sure what you mean. Drach'Nyen has been described as a unique and massively powerful artefact since it was first introduced in 2nd edition. It was never just another bog-standard daemon sword.

To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

You can never escape the memes.

**Void__Dragon**

Duskweaver wrote:

Not sure what you mean. Drach'Nyen has been described as a unique and massively powerful artefact since it was first introduced in 2nd edition. It was never just another bog-standard daemon sword.

To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

ADB has a consistent problem of inconsistency, in that there is no internal consistency of the capabilities of the characters. Everything is purely dictated by what ADB's plot needs them to be. This is why in one scene Angron can physically stop a Warhound Titan from moving, and in another he's in dire peril from Space Wolves with bolters. And why in one scene Lorgar can survive getting hit by a Titan's main gun, and in another his hand is blown off by a Bolter.

Relatively mortal Primarchs are okay, Dan Abnett tends to prefer his Primarchs that way (as opposed to the almost invincible mountain shaking demigods McNeill prefers) and it's fine. But ADB wants to have his Primarchs as capable of surviving mountain-shattering blows while also being able to be threatened by basic Marine weapons if he thinks he's making an intelligent point.

So when Abaddon, a guy who can be threatened by an asthmatic Sigismund with a foot in the grave, is apparently able to subdue the Daemon Primarchs on their own Daemon worlds, this is just more evidence of ADB's lack of internal consistency.

**BrianDavion**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:

Not sure what you mean. Drach'Nyen has been described as a unique and massively powerful artefact since it was first introduced in 2nd edition. It was never just another bog-standard daemon sword.

To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

ADB has a consistent problem of inconsistency, in that there is no internal consistency of the capabilities of the characters. Everything is purely dictated by what ADB's plot needs them to be. This is why in one scene Angron can physically stop a Warhound Titan from moving, and in another he's in dire peril from Space Wolves with bolters. And why in one scene Lorgar can survive getting hit by a Titan's main gun, and in another his hand is blown off by a Bolter.

Relatively mortal Primarchs are okay, Dan Abnett tends to prefer his Primarchs that way (as opposed to the almost invincible mountain shaking demigods McNeill prefers) and it's fine. But ADB wants to have his Primarchs as capable of surviving mountain-shattering blows while also being able to be threatened by basic Marine weapons if he thinks he's making an intelligent point.

So when Abaddon, a guy who can be threatened by an asthmatic Sigismund with a foot in the grave, is apparently able to subdue the Daemon Primarchs on their own Daemon worlds, this is just more evidence of ADB's lack of internal consistency.

thats only if you're stupid eneugh to assume Abaddon just brute force overpowered the deamon primarchs. instead of ohh, using artifacts to bind them, their true names etc. there are a LOT of tools you can use to bend a deamon prince to your will

**changemod**

Duskweaver wrote:
To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

Believe it or not, a villain doesn’t need a high success rate to be an effective villain. This overhyped Abaddon of recent times is a lot harder to take seriously than he used to be. Same principle as giant three headed dragon mount archaon the narrative claims even the gods are afraid of being a ridiculous cartoon character compared to horse mounted archaon leading tribes of barbarians, mutants and demons in a crusade against the fantasy Holy Roman Empire.

**Eipi10**

Umbras wrote:
Give me Chris Wright or Guy Haley.

Chris Wraight is one of the most under appreciated BL authors. His world building is excellent, he's like ADB without the pretentiousness. I just don't know if he would give as fitting a narrative arc as it deserves; then again I don't even know what kind of narrative arc it deserves. I have much more confidence in Guy Haley giving it an appropriate conclusion, it's just that his books are more hit or miss than Chris Wraight, I don't know if it's good to risk that for the last book.

**BrianDavion**

changemod wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

Believe it or not, a villain doesn’t need a high success rate to be an effective villain. This overhyped Abaddon of recent times is a lot harder to take seriously than he used to be. Same principle as giant three headed dragon mount archaon the narrative claims even the gods are afraid of being a ridiculous cartoon character compared to horse mounted archaon leading tribes of barbarians, mutants and demons in a crusade against the fantasy Holy Roman Empire.

Yeah no a villian DOES need to succeed occasionally to be taken seriously as a villian, otherwise that's how you get villian decay.

**Duskweaver**

Void__Dragon wrote:Please stop trying to deflect criticisms of ADB with the assertion that people just aren't smart enough to understand the work of a somewhat better than average pulp writer buddy, it's really foolish.

I started out in this thread light-heartedly poking at ADB's tendency to be a little too mysterious for his own good. I've criticised his frequent inability to do decent pacing. The fact that you've reached the conclusion that I'm some sort of slavering fanboy just because I can kinda see what he's trying to do with his writing (and don't agree with your conflation of 'stuff you don't like' with 'stuff that's objectively bad') pretty much confirms that you don't really get nuance at all.

"A somewhat better than average pulp writer" is actually how I'd describe ADB.

Oh, and the bits that make the Emperor look "evil or selfish or stupid" aren't given secondhand, they are first-hand accounts of dealings with the Emperor. If other scenes contradict that heavily then that's just bad and inconsistent writing my friend, not "ambiguity or mystery".

The Emperor is not just some random dude. He's a supergenius psyker of literally godlike power who has spent millennia manipulating people. Different people having very different perceptions of him is not "bad and inconsistent writing", it is exactly what you should expect of such a character.

changemod wrote:Same principle as giant three headed dragon mount archaon the narrative claims even the gods are afraid of being a ridiculous cartoon character compared to horse mounted archaon leading tribes of barbarians, mutants and demons in a crusade against the fantasy Holy Roman Empire.

This sounds increasingly like it's not about Abaddon or ADB at all. It's about some of you being sore about GW lore in general not being 100% the same as it was decades ago.

**deano2099**

Aash wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:theValdor novel ahs added an intreasting wrinkle in this though in that it suggests some sentimentality on the part of the emperor to the primarchs at least initally

That's true and it could be paternal, but you can be sentimental about a lot of things, like your first bike, favourite game, C lucky hat etc. He could easily be sentimental about them because they embody his purpose and drive for humanity. They were his first big commitment - his Rubicon if you will. When he made them the couldn't turn back.

Aash wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
the super special extra primarch he added to the setting and so on.

Forgive my ignorance, did Dan Abnett make up a new Primarch?

He invented Omegon. Before Legion, there was only ever 20 primarchs.

Really?! I could’ve sworn the twin primarchs alpha/omegon was a thing before the HH book series started. I don’t have any evidence to back that up so maybe it’s a Mandela effect thing going on.

I know there’s no mention of Omegon in the 2nd ed codex chaos and that only had the story about Horus finding Alpharius and they recognised each other and that Alpharius didn’t reveal his home world.

The reveal was in the Abnett book, but it wasn't his idea. I remember hearing that he basically did want to invent some crazy stuff for the Alpha Legion, put a whole bunch of it down and went for a meeting with GW, expecting them to say "no" to most of it but maybe okay one or two bits. Instead they said yes to everything and then went "also, we want you to reveal that there are two Alpha Legion Primarchs and they are twins".

So while Abnett is "guilty" of inventing plenty of stuff for the setting, that one wasn't his.

Fairly sure he'll still be doing the last book too.

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
changemod wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

Believe it or not, a villain doesn’t need a high success rate to be an effective villain. This overhyped Abaddon of recent times is a lot harder to take seriously than he used to be. Same principle as giant three headed dragon mount archaon the narrative claims even the gods are afraid of being a ridiculous cartoon character compared to horse mounted archaon leading tribes of barbarians, mutants and demons in a crusade against the fantasy Holy Roman Empire.

Yeah no a villian DOES need to succeed occasionally to be taken seriously as a villian, otherwise that's how you get villian decay.

Thanquol was a villain so incompetent he was literally allowed to live because he caused more harm to his race than good and look what happened there. He lead his race to become the device used for off screen killing entire races.

**Arbitrator**

The Emperor will kill Horus, then the book will end on the next page, probably with Dorn looking back at the interred Emperor and getting no reaction from anybody about anything.

After Peter Fehervari I'd say Abnett is my favourite Black Library author but there's something ironic about putting him in charge of the ending given how abysmally he often writes them.

The ADB worship in the fandom is always baffling to me but maybe it's because I struggle to get into Marine books. I enjoyed Night Lords, but couldn't make it half the way into Talon of Horus.

**gorgon**

Duskweaver wrote:
This sounds increasingly like it's not about Abaddon or ADB at all. It's about some of you being sore about GW lore in general not being 100% the same as it was decades ago.

Couldn't be.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
changemod wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

Believe it or not, a villain doesn’t need a high success rate to be an effective villain. This overhyped Abaddon of recent times is a lot harder to take seriously than he used to be. Same principle as giant three headed dragon mount archaon the narrative claims even the gods are afraid of being a ridiculous cartoon character compared to horse mounted archaon leading tribes of barbarians, mutants and demons in a crusade against the fantasy Holy Roman Empire.

Yeah no a villian DOES need to succeed occasionally to be taken seriously as a villian, otherwise that's how you get villian decay.

Thanquol was a villain so incompetent he was literally allowed to live because he caused more harm to his race than good and look what happened there. He lead his race to become the device used for off screen killing entire races.

if he's killing off entire races, off screen or on, that is by definition occasional sucesses.
keep in mind I am not saying a villian needs to win everytime he does something or shows up, but he does need to have some victories. and Abaddon acheiving long term goals while "losing" the campaign makes sense. as it is we know he doesn't always achvie EVERYTHING he wanted. given that the 12th black crusade only netted him 2 of 6 blackstone fortresses. (I'm sure Abaddon would have liked all 6.)

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
changemod wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

Believe it or not, a villain doesn’t need a high success rate to be an effective villain. This overhyped Abaddon of recent times is a lot harder to take seriously than he used to be. Same principle as giant three headed dragon mount archaon the narrative claims even the gods are afraid of being a ridiculous cartoon character compared to horse mounted archaon leading tribes of barbarians, mutants and demons in a crusade against the fantasy Holy Roman Empire.

Yeah no a villian DOES need to succeed occasionally to be taken seriously as a villian, otherwise that's how you get villian decay.

Thanquol was a villain so incompetent he was literally allowed to live because he caused more harm to his race than good and look what happened there. He lead his race to become the device used for off screen killing entire races.

if he's killing off entire races, off screen or on, that is by definition occasional sucesses.
keep in mind I am not saying a villian needs to win everytime he does something or shows up, but he does need to have some victories. and Abaddon acheiving long term goals while "losing" the campaign makes sense. as it is we know he doesn't always achvie EVERYTHING he wanted. given that the 12th black crusade only netted him 2 of 6 blackstone fortresses. (I'm sure Abaddon would have liked all 6.)

That was my point.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
changemod wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
To be honest, it sounds like you're just upset that ADB portrays Abaddon the way he was always meant to have been in the actual lore, rather than the way 20-odd years of stupid 'armless' memes have portrayed him.

Believe it or not, a villain doesn’t need a high success rate to be an effective villain. This overhyped Abaddon of recent times is a lot harder to take seriously than he used to be. Same principle as giant three headed dragon mount archaon the narrative claims even the gods are afraid of being a ridiculous cartoon character compared to horse mounted archaon leading tribes of barbarians, mutants and demons in a crusade against the fantasy Holy Roman Empire.

Yeah no a villian DOES need to succeed occasionally to be taken seriously as a villian, otherwise that's how you get villian decay.

Thanquol was a villain so incompetent he was literally allowed to live because he caused more harm to his race than good and look what happened there. He lead his race to become the device used for off screen killing entire races.

if he's killing off entire races, off screen or on, that is by definition occasional sucesses.
keep in mind I am not saying a villian needs to win everytime he does something or shows up, but he does need to have some victories. and Abaddon acheiving long term goals while "losing" the campaign makes sense. as it is we know he doesn't always achvie EVERYTHING he wanted. given that the 12th black crusade only netted him 2 of 6 blackstone fortresses. (I'm sure Abaddon would have liked all 6.)

That was my point.

ahh thought you where trying to argue the point.

**Tycho**

ADB has a consistent problem of inconsistency, in that there is no internal consistency of the capabilities of the characters. Everything is purely dictated by what ADB's plot needs them to be. This is why in one scene Angron can physically stop a Warhound Titan from moving, and in another he's in dire peril from Space Wolves with bolters. And why in one scene Lorgar can survive getting hit by a Titan's main gun, and in another his hand is blown off by a Bolter.

I'll wait while you find me the Black Library writer who DOESN'T have that issue.... We'll all be out of quarantine before you manage that. A lot of what you're describing as an "ADB problem" is really just a "Black Library in General" problem.

As for Betrayer - one of the few HH books I actually got through. Loved the first three. Almost all the others? Not so much ...

Personally, I don't think anyone at the BL writes the bad guys quite as interestingly as ADB, and he can consistently deliver on his endings, so I'd love to see him write the last book. He's also one of the better authors for avoiding (as much as anyone can), passages that read like:

"Greetings brother"
"Well met Brother. Why so stern a look brother?"
"Because brother, my humors are ill-aligned"

Then you just add in something about a "wet-leopard growl" leading off an ambush and you've got yourself some classic Black Library ...
I feel like even some of the better BL authors get bonus pay for using the word "brother" as much as possible ...

This sounds increasingly like it's not about Abaddon or ADB at all. It's about some of you being sore about GW lore in general not being 100% the same as it was decades ago.

GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!

**harlokin**

Arbitrator wrote:

The ADB worship in the fandom is always baffling to me but maybe it's because I struggle to get into Marine books. I enjoyed Night Lords, but couldn't make it half the way into Talon of Horus.

I suspect our tastes are similar, although Talon of Horus was the only one of his books that I thought was bad.

I don't think it's that surprising that ADB is popular, he is an above average Black Library writer, and he does interact with the fans. I don't think either are something to be sneered at.

**phillv85**

In my opinion ADB and Dan Abnett have written the best BL books, but they’re not the most consistent. They have their share of stinkers between them. I thought Legion was dire, and The Emperor’s Gift was a bit naff.

Chris Wraight seems to have the most consistent good quality to me. Guy Haley’s more recent work has also been good quality. I’ve only read a couple of Peter Fehervari books, so possibly a little early to judge, but if you can deal with quite a lot of hidden unknowns and an undercurrent of hopelessness (I can) then he may be right up your alley. His books are very different in style to the more common bolter porn some authors make.

For the final SoT book, I’m not sure who I’d most like to write the last one. Probably Abnett or Haley.

**Danny76**

I think Abnett May well be doing the last. I don’t know why you’d think he wouldn’t based on writing the 4th.
Authors of 5 onwards, sure maybe not.
But book 4 and 8 is a good enough gap..
Particularly as we don’t know how much is already written for any of them..

**Wunzlez**

All this bickering reminds me that 40k(and 30k for that matter) fluff wants to be Dune.

But it will always be Starship Troopers.

**Shadow Walker**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Muhr wrote:
I was actually quite surprised to learn that Dan Abnett was writing book number 4 of the SoT series. I always assumed he would be writing the final book considering he wrote the first one. It would've given the series a feeling of symmetry. But as he's down for book 4, I really hope ADB is doing the final book. Alongside Abnett he is my favourite author, and I'd love to see what he'd do with the final encounter between the Big E and his wayward son.

Does anyone know if ADB IS writing the last book? The only info I can find is on BL's website doesn't say anything beyond who the six authors would be.

I sure hope not. ADB is the most overrated and inconsistent writer in Black Library. On one hand you have masterpieces (insofar as any BL work can be a masterpiece) like The First Heretic and Helsreach, sloppy faux-philosophical schlock like Betrayer, and utter garbage like The Emperor's Gift.

Every BL author is at best inconsistent yes (even Dan Abnett deal with it), but among the so-called "top tier" BL writers ADB's work can get particularly terrible.

This (except Helsreach being in the same league as TFH, IMO it is in the Betrayer's one).

**queen_annes_revenge**

I've found Guy Haley a bit meh lately. I just finished lost and the damned, and I dont know, it felt like he was trying to cover a lot of bases, with not a lot of substance in each area. it wasnt terrible, but I didnt find it terribly gripping.

**Void__Dragon**

This thread didn't age well, considering how terrible his SoT book apparently is. ADB is a hack. Never let fanboys write for your property.

**Fifty**

Void__Dragon wrote:
This thread didn't age well, considering how terrible his SoT book apparently is. ADB is a hack. Never let fanboys write for your property.

They should have asked you to do it. You'd have done a great job.

Personally, I hugely enjoyed Echoes of Eternity and haven't come across people complaining about it. Mind you, I'm not such a negative person as to go looking for whinging.

To describe ADB as a hack runs contrary to what the vast majority of Black Library readers think, and being a fan of an intellectual property doesn't mean you can't do an excellent job of writing for it.

**Void__Dragon**

Fifty wrote:

They should have asked you to do it. You'd have done a great job.

Appeal to accomplishment.

Personally, I hugely enjoyed Echoes of Eternity and haven't come across people complaining about it. Mind you, I'm not such a negative person as to go looking for whinging.

Poisoning the well.

To describe ADB as a hack runs contrary to what the vast majority of Black Library readers think,

Appeal to popularity.

and being a fan of an intellectual property doesn't mean you can't do an excellent job of writing for it.

Maybe so.

Let's talk Echoes of Eternity though. What do you think of ADB's assertion that the Daemon Primarchs and indeed any sufficiently corrupted follower of Chaos is in fact dead and gone and has been replaced by a Daemon forming a caricature of their persona?

What did you think about Angron (this is the Primarch whose sole niche is being the best at no holds barred dueling btw) as a Daemon Primarch getting stomped by Sanguinius in combat easily, with Angron only lasting as long as he did because he was able to heal his wounds?

What did you think of Magnus being too dumb to think of somehow removing Vulkan from the battlefield or otherwise immobilizing him, opting instead to keep trying to kill the Primarch whose niche is "can't die"?

ADB is a hack my friend. I've always held reservations with him being included among BL's best (which isn't even a particularly prestigious status to have btw), but that first plot point in particular? Awful. Probably the worst thing to enter the stories ever. Taking agency away from those who have fallen from Chaos would rob every single interaction or decision they make of any pathos or meaning. Let's say Lorgar and Guilliman once more meet. Why care when apparently it's not even Lorgar anymore? Luckily I don't think most of the other BL writers are quite as equally stupid or pretentious enough to follow this set example.

**The Red Hobbit**

Hellebore wrote:
A lot of dan abnett's work relies on him inventing something not in 40k and then writing his story revolving around it so it becomes something important, or causally throwing lines in that upturn 40k and have big consequences.

He came from comics though where you can say whatever you want and reset it whenever you want.

But in an ongoing narrative, wholesale inventing things with significant ramifications like enuncia which makes selling your soul to chaos for power pointless, or no wolves on fenris being one of the most ridiculous and contrived retcons so that space Wolves are even more parody, or perpetuals and the ruination of Vulkan's tragic death by him now growing back like wolverine up to 11, or the super special extra primarch he added to the setting and so on.

I enjoy Abnett's work including some of the contrivances you mentioned but I recognize they can be quite damaging to the setting if it takes an established faction or character in a very different direction than they were previously written or alluded to be. I'm not familiar with the special extra primarch bit, is that from HH or 40k?

**BrianDavion**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Fifty wrote:

They should have asked you to do it. You'd have done a great job.

Appeal to accomplishment.

Personally, I hugely enjoyed Echoes of Eternity and haven't come across people complaining about it. Mind you, I'm not such a negative person as to go looking for whinging.

Poisoning the well.

To describe ADB as a hack runs contrary to what the vast majority of Black Library readers think,

Appeal to popularity.

and being a fan of an intellectual property doesn't mean you can't do an excellent job of writing for it.

Maybe so.

Let's talk Echoes of Eternity though. What do you think of ADB's assertion that the Daemon Primarchs and indeed any sufficiently corrupted follower of Chaos is in fact dead and gone and has been replaced by a Daemon forming a caricature of their persona?

What did you think about Angron (this is the Primarch whose sole niche is being the best at no holds barred dueling btw) as a Daemon Primarch getting stomped by Sanguinius in combat easily, with Angron only lasting as long as he did because he was able to heal his wounds?

What did you think of Magnus being too dumb to think of somehow removing Vulkan from the battlefield or otherwise immobilizing him, opting instead to keep trying to kill the Primarch whose niche is "can't die"?

ADB is a hack my friend. I've always held reservations with him being included among BL's best (which isn't even a particularly prestigious status to have btw), but that first plot point in particular? Awful. Probably the worst thing to enter the stories ever. Taking agency away from those who have fallen from Chaos would rob every single interaction or decision they make of any pathos or meaning. Let's say Lorgar and Guilliman once more meet. Why care when apparently it's not even Lorgar anymore? Luckily I don't think most of the other BL writers are quite as equally stupid or pretentious enough to follow this set example.

What do I think?

I think the idea that a deamon prince isn't really the person anymore is 100% CORRECT. they've been absorbed be a chaos god. of COURSE it's an open question, how much of them is really left!

as for what I think of Angron, I buy it. I'm gonna level something with you buddy.. ANGRON ISN'T A GOOD FIGHTER He's a Bezerker who rushes in and bulldozes his way past everything. meanwhile Sanguinus is constantly described as one of the most skilled Primarchs, with literal pre-cognation. I can TOTALLY belive Sanginius was capable of defeating Angron. especially as Angron's had his demon form long eneugh that he's proably adapted himself for it. and that means accepting that "yeah I can take its and just heal them" In short Angron's fighting like Wolverine.

As for Magnus not "knowing immediatly how to deal with Vulcan, well.. I guess Magnus hadn't read 'Vulcan lives"