Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As a long-time Warhammer & Minis agmer and collector, I held off on buying the expensive battletomes for a long time, especially as they were intent on splitting things like Skaven and Orcs into multiple books, but finally relented when they became a bit better (and more fleshed out) with the second editon. I've now got all of the current books, excepting these four - Now I know that they're all still current, but I'm not sure if they're proper second edition ones that are worth buying at this point in time or if they'll likely be superceded soon like the Kharadron Overlords and a few others - so I'm hoiping that the forum here could help me out on this one.

Maggotkin Battletome
Nagash Battletome
Deepkin Battletome
Daughters of Khaine Battletome

Thanks!

Maggotkin was strong on release but is now showing its age and has less options than its counterparts. That one at least I’d expect to get a release. It was the “last” of 1st with 2nd edition in mind.

In addition, look for the aura effects to contain the phrase “wholly within”. If they don’t say that, you’re getting an update. AoS has been moving towards including that in all aura effects.

Those were the last four of first edition and were written specifically with second edition in mind. Their layout and structure largely shows the evolution of first edition battletomes to the current (and thankfully more consistent) version. They are also among the most likely to get updates, but that can generally be said for battletomes which have gone longest without one. I would say Nurgle and LoN are roughly halfway between the first & second edition layout, whereas Idoneth and DoK are much more similar with only superficial differences.

I feel it is important to note that Nurgle gained full subfaction support in Wrath of the Everchosen. This also acted as a stealth-buff to the battletome which was lagging significantly behind at that point. Put simply, Wrath of the Everchosen is more or less a battletome expansion for Nurgle because the buffs it offers within are not only auto-take but restore viability to an allegiance that increasingly was not.

I also feel it relevant to mention that the LoN battletome may be viable but does not function very well mechanically, and suffers from a massive bloat of content (they tried to do sub-factions as separate allegiances). I would say it is among the most likely battletomes to see an update because of that and its age.

Deepkin function mechanically but suffer from some internal balance issues that IMO are more likely to be dealt with via point costs.

DoK are still doing quite well overall and definitely function properly as an army. I would not expect an update any time soon, unless GW specifically goes for updating all battletomes to 2nd edition.

Cheers guys - so out of the four the ones most worth picking up appear to be ...Deepkin and Daughters? Or do you realistically think I'm better off holding off on all four for the time being? Obviously renamed High Elves are close on the agenda once GW opens up again, but then again we did just get new Tzeentch and Overlords books...

Note I'm sure I can get ...access to the PDFs and probably won't be playing fully fledged battle using either all that soon due to not having enough of them built/painted + the current apocalypse isolation requrements. I just like to get the full books for anything that I'm going to use since I like the whole tactile thing, but having said that I'm more lilkely to be building forces to use 2-3 of the factions in Skirmish or Path to Glory-sized warbands for the time being...

Honestly, Deepkin and Daughters basically have one playstyle each because even though the claim is "designed with 2nd edition in mind" it really doesn't jibe with the way they actually play.

Interesting follow up question to that - how many books that exist today have more than 1 way to legit play them without getting face stomped?

(how many books don't have 1 legit way to play without getting face stomped)

Assuming a competitive environment where everyone is trying to break the game.

Honestly is that really a bad thing if for cutthroat competitive play you break the army down into one viable way? I mean the issue is that mindset trickles down to everything else but having that be the case at the competitive level is not all bad.

Its neither good nor bad. The question is mainly if you're playing in open gaming in stores as well as events, you should assume the default is competitive. In the three stores near me, all three stores default is competitive unless you are playing specific people that specifically do not build that way.

If that is the default, then its good to know what books have viable builds, what books have multiple viable builds, and what books have no viable builds. For me, playing a game means i care very much about the outcome as opposed to just wanting to sling dice for laughs. So I want to play games that are engaging to me mentally and not just one sided stompings for either player. I know a lot of people are like that, so I think the question has merit because knowing what you "should build" and "should avoid" are great ways to save money and the black hole that is spending a month painting an army only to find out that Joey the powergaming munchkin's grey horde is just going to face plant you because of his army build and you didn't max yours out too.

From what I have seen, Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine still do pretty good in all but the cheeziest of tournament environments. However, I know IDK basically have one build and I imagine DoK are the same.

From what I understand, if you're going to a tournament amd you want to optimize your chances of success, there's basically only one way to run almost all factions. I think of it like the meta in MTG Standard format. Yeah, there's a million options, but only about 10 competitive builds until the meta shifts.

DoK have several decent builds and were one of the first "OMG this is so broken" that got adjusted in a generals handbook.


Ignoring the whole meta/competitive angle; the whole of AoS currently runs on 2.0. All the Battletomes are 2.0 compliant and GW appears to have finished updating the game in terms of getting it to 2.0. Yes there is some variation between the books and clearly latter ones are more settled than some earlier

That said the board is now clean and fresh so who gets the next Tome is basically impossible to say. GW also has a lot of options to update armies without releasing a full Battletome. They can release new models with rules in the box and online (warscrolls are already online on the GW store as are points in the warscroll builder); they can release a "battletome update" book or even thrust things in white dwarf and the Generals Handbook.


It's thus impossible to predict which books will go out of date first. GW might update some of the first armies; they might go for some of the latter. IT might all hinge on if they've got a big model update to add to an army as opposed to just one or two units. Big model updates would, I think, be a good time to release a new Tome as adding lots of models changes a good many things; one or two new units though might not change enough to warrant releasing a whole new book and updating the army.

That is entirely my experience as well. And the meta shifts twice a year in AOS land due to the yearly FAQ/Eratta changing things, and the annual GHB which changes things up so you have to keep up on it.

That also means at any given times many factions for a year or so will have to be ok with getting pounded. I think eyes wide open knowing that in advance is good, particularly if your casual store environment mirrors tournament expectations as well.

 Azazelx wrote:
Cheers guys - so out of the four the ones most worth picking up appear to be ...Deepkin and Daughters? Or do you realistically think I'm better off holding off on all four for the time being? Obviously renamed High Elves are close on the agenda once GW opens up again, but then again we did just get new Tzeentch and Overlords books...

Note I'm sure I can get ...access to the PDFs and probably won't be playing fully fledged battle using either all that soon due to not having enough of them built/painted + the current apocalypse isolation requrements. I just like to get the full books for anything that I'm going to use since I like the whole tactile thing, but having said that I'm more lilkely to be building forces to use 2-3 of the factions in Skirmish or Path to Glory-sized warbands for the time being...

Well then you want both Deepkin & Daughters as they're allies and you can make combined PtG forces with them.

I think he's more collecting the books and just wants to make sure they aren't being replaced in a few months. Thing is we reall know nothing right now and GW has two new AoS armies right out of the door this year already. We just have no idea what's up their sleeves and GW is also more open to releasing models with other ways to give us rules without having to release a new Battletome to do so.

 Overread wrote:
I think he's more collecting the books and just wants to make sure they aren't being replaced in a few months. Thing is we reall know nothing right now and GW has two new AoS armies right out of the door this year already. We just have no idea what's up their sleeves and GW is also more open to releasing models with other ways to give us rules without having to release a new Battletome to do so.

Indeed. He did not ask about what the armies do in competitive meta. Further, it is misleading to state that an army "has one viable build" when one means it "has one viable build for competitive play" as the two are very different. The former means the army is due for an update, the latter is pretty normal.

True. EVERY book is now 2.0 compatible. Some made before 2.0 are just really showing their age.

Further, it is misleading to state that an army "has one viable build" when one means it "has one viable build for competitive play" as the two are very different.

Up until this very moment I didn't know people considered those two separate things. When I say "viable build" i mean a build that can play good games and not get rolled by virtue of listbuilding.

Most communities have a (larger) gap in list potency between tourney and casual than yours

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Indeed. He did not ask about what the armies do in competitive meta. Further, it is misleading to state that an army "has one viable build" when one means it "has one viable build for competitive play" as the two are very different. The former means the army is due for an update, the latter is pretty normal.

Putting it politely, there's not much misleading with my statement regarding Idoneth.

Try playing Namarti Corps with anything other than Mor'phann(which even after the FAQ'd bit for the Namarti Corps[increasing Reavers from 2-4 to 2-6] is still just bad compared to the Ionrach, Nautilar or Fuethain benefits). There's a reason why Eels are the de facto suggestion to people starting out the army. There's a reason why people almost always suggest Volturnos over a generic King. There's a reason why the Eidolon is considered "just a pretty model".

Mor'phann needed something to make them more interesting/helpful than "This subfaction gets to take more Namarti in the Namarti Corps". They copy/pasted over Briomdar's "more Reavers" bit(after the original bonus was an increase on the max number of Thrall units...that matched the max number of Thrall units) rather than doing the bit that most people suggested when asked for feedback(allowing for an additional Soulreaver in the formation).

 Overread wrote:
I think he's more collecting the books and just wants to make sure they aren't being replaced in a few months.

So you didn't read the 4th post where he specifically states he wants books for things he'd be running in a Path To Glory type game?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Indeed. He did not ask about what the armies do in competitive meta. Further, it is misleading to state that an army "has one viable build" when one means it "has one viable build for competitive play" as the two are very different. The former means the army is due for an update, the latter is pretty normal.

Putting it politely, there's not much misleading with my statement regarding Idoneth.

Try playing Namarti Corps with anything other than Mor'phann(which even after the FAQ'd bit for the Namarti Corps[increasing Reavers from 2-4 to 2-6] is still just bad compared to the Ionrach, Nautilar or Fuethain benefits). There's a reason why Eels are the de facto suggestion to people starting out the army. There's a reason why people almost always suggest Volturnos over a generic King. There's a reason why the Eidolon is considered "just a pretty model".

Mor'phann needed something to make them more interesting/helpful than "This subfaction gets to take more Namarti in the Namarti Corps". They copy/pasted over Briomdar's "more Reavers" bit(after the original bonus was an increase on the max number of Thrall units...that matched the max number of Thrall units) rather than doing the bit that most people suggested when asked for feedback(allowing for an additional Soulreaver in the formation).

I do not disagree, it is just I feel the floor for inviable is lower than the level at which Idoneth run. Imagine performing at the level of Anvilguard, Legion of Azgorh, pre-battletome Seraphon or Slaves to Darkness.

 auticus wrote:
Interesting follow up question to that - how many books that exist today have more than 1 way to legit play them without getting face stomped?

(how many books don't have 1 legit way to play without getting face stomped)

Assuming a competitive environment where everyone is trying to break the game.

BoC, StD, BoK, CoS, SCE, OBR, DoT, Skaven, IDK, HoS, and many more. Honestly they there are less that has this ability to play more than 1 way viably than their arn't. Sylvaneth, FS, LoA are the 3 worst i'd say. Some others can be argue either way, like LoN, DoK. SOme armies like LoN has multi lists that are all equally as strong and viable, but the army is so finest already some might consider it a bad army, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have equally powerful different builds. The 2 armies i know the least amount are Orruks/IJ and MoN. so i won't talk about them.

Now if you are talking about tournament level, then yeah, but thats literally different. The purpose is to take the single best list and play the smartest out of anyone. BUT even then there are still multiple viable builds for many armies, DoT, HoS, IDK, OBR, BoC, CoS, Skaven, i've seen completely different lists for each of these that has made top 3. I'd say it just puts some armies into that middle range like Goblins and Ogres/BCR, they have viable lists to go 3-2 or 2-3 but really only 1 list to go 4-1, b.c they have many lists for 2-3/3-2 isn't that still viable? I've only really seen 1 faction (with a book) go 1-4 or 0-5, and that would be Everchosen. Currently i'd say the worst army right now is Sylvenath, they literally only have 1 way to play and is dependent on table setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Indeed. He did not ask about what the armies do in competitive meta. Further, it is misleading to state that an army "has one viable build" when one means it "has one viable build for competitive play" as the two are very different. The former means the army is due for an update, the latter is pretty normal.

Putting it politely, there's not much misleading with my statement regarding Idoneth.

Try playing Namarti Corps with anything other than Mor'phann(which even after the FAQ'd bit for the Namarti Corps[increasing Reavers from 2-4 to 2-6] is still just bad compared to the Ionrach, Nautilar or Fuethain benefits). There's a reason why Eels are the de facto suggestion to people starting out the army. There's a reason why people almost always suggest Volturnos over a generic King. There's a reason why the Eidolon is considered "just a pretty model".

Mor'phann needed something to make them more interesting/helpful than "This subfaction gets to take more Namarti in the Namarti Corps". They copy/pasted over Briomdar's "more Reavers" bit(after the original bonus was an increase on the max number of Thrall units...that matched the max number of Thrall units) rather than doing the bit that most people suggested when asked for feedback(allowing for an additional Soulreaver in the formation).

I do not disagree, it is just I feel the floor for inviable is lower than the level at which Idoneth run. Imagine performing at the level of Anvilguard, Legion of Azgorh, pre-battletome Seraphon or Slaves to Darkness.

I played IDK in a few tournaments, getting first with them as well.

I played Namarti Corps or Royal council for every list b.c battalions are really good to have, less drops, more CP, more artefacts, etc.. Namarti Corps is good IMO, but not with a King as the General, a Tidecaster with 2 Soulscryers (4 HQ's total, 1 Soulrender for the battalion), i still took eels for sure, the rest of my list was eels (18 eels, 9 Morrsarr, 9 Ishlaen) it is a 6 drop list sadly (battalion, 3 HQ's 2 Eel units) but being 6 is still better than a lot of armies.

With lots of eels pushing forwards and a 2nd Soulscryer (even after the 30pts increased) combine with Run and charge/run and shoot turn 1, you basically just Alpha strike turn 1 and then fight first turn 2 and win. Its extremely important to have the 2 Reavers in key spots to help mitigate movements/damage turn 2,a nd us the thralls as bait. Ishlean eels are your body blockers for counter attacks. Finally you need the Boats to further help stop movements. I've had people pick up turn 2 and just give me to game at events, HoS and SCE players mostly. The HoS, just hi a keep turn 1 with Reavers/Thralls and everything else a flank away from the other KoS with your Eels, make the Keepers no able to get the eels and only able to get the Reavers/Thralls. Using the Boats to splint them is key.

I personally like Reavers b.c they are fast and can deal with outer objectives with units like Skinks, Ungors, 20man Clan Rats, etc.. they can keep up with the eels for the most part (8"+rrD6") and being on 32's can easily body block. Every army need Pawns, Reavers are great at that. Especially if they are stopping say a outflanking/DSing shooting unit from hitting your other units. Its really funny seeing a Skaven player not able to Hole out 6 Fiends to shoot your eels and has to waste them on a throwaway unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:
As a long-time Warhammer & Minis agmer and collector, I held off on buying the expensive battletomes for a long time, especially as they were intent on splitting things like Skaven and Orcs into multiple books, but finally relented when they became a bit better (and more fleshed out) with the second editon. I've now got all of the current books, excepting these four - Now I know that they're all still current, but I'm not sure if they're proper second edition ones that are worth buying at this point in time or if they'll likely be superceded soon like the Kharadron Overlords and a few others - so I'm hoiping that the forum here could help me out on this one.

Maggotkin Battletome
Nagash Battletome
Deepkin Battletome
Daughters of Khaine Battletome

Thanks!

IDK, and DoK were made with 2nd in mind and most likely will not get a new book, but a new update from a different book (like how Everchosen/Chaos just got). LoN might be completely redone along with LoG, its something the community has been wondering for a bit. I would not get those 2 books for sure. MoN is the only true old book now and they could go either way, either a new book or just an updated book. I hope for a new book honestly, you could wait a little bit more for this, at least till the end of the year.

The problem with Idoneth non-eel lists is that they are EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE to make.

I mean, namartii hordes are ... uff. You need a good budget for that list.

Yeah... it really puts many players off on expanding IDK, i personally know 4 players that just won't buy more than 2 thralls and 1 reaver box b.c of the price.

When it first came out i was going to get 3 Sharks but they are priced just as bad so i got 15 eels day 1 (and the turtle lol) obly b.c of the price. Its one of the more costly armies for how little you get (other than FS).

But then you have armies like Skaven, FeC, BCR, and BoC, that you can literally buy 3-4 Start Collectings and have a full playable 2k army that isn't bad. With a 15% discount we are talking $230-300 for a full 2k army.

1 Box of 10, 130pt Namarti is $50 by its self, $300 gets you 60 bodies and only 780pts... WTF!

Perhaps the nuances of budgeting armies would be better in another thread?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think he's more collecting the books and just wants to make sure they aren't being replaced in a few months. Thing is we reall know nothing right now and GW has two new AoS armies right out of the door this year already. We just have no idea what's up their sleeves and GW is also more open to releasing models with other ways to give us rules without having to release a new Battletome to do so.

Indeed. He did not ask about what the armies do in competitive meta. Further, it is misleading to state that an army "has one viable build" when one means it "has one viable build for competitive play" as the two are very different. The former means the army is due for an update, the latter is pretty normal.

Yeah, pretty much that. I've got minis for all the ranges, but I'm not especially competitive as I only game socially these days - I'm more driven by models that look cool though I still appreciate points because I still enjoy those games having some semblance of equality/fairness. (yeah I know, GW games, so like I said - semblance)

Sounds like it's probably best to hold off on purchasing those 1e books for now if there's a decent liklihood of them being replaced in a few months/later this year - so thanks again guys for the info and opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think he's more collecting the books and just wants to make sure they aren't being replaced in a few months.

So you didn't read the 4th post where he specifically states he wants books for things he'd be running in a Path To Glory type game?

That's also a thing, but I have access to the PDFs so given that those four books look like they'd be next in line (around new releases and re-imaginings like the High Elves) it's probably best to hold off on the purchases. But thanks