Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ishagu wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ishagu-why does Dante only allow Marines to reroll 1s and 2s, but Calgar allows them to reroll any hits?

And, more importantly, why is that distinction DESIRABLE?

Why are the Blood Angels a more competitive chapter than the Ultramarines? Why are their unit selections different?

They just are. You get unique units, we get a better CM aura. Know your own rules and leave your opponent to know theirs.

It has nothing to do with Dante. It is because the meta is elite castles and BA are codex: tripoint.

OK, folks, kindly wind it back a notch. The discussion here is on USRs, not the mindset of other players. Keep it civil, please.

USRs help me from having to engage in the behavior you hate so much Ishagu. You should be all for them.

 Ishagu wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ishagu-why does Dante only allow Marines to reroll 1s and 2s, but Calgar allows them to reroll any hits?

And, more importantly, why is that distinction DESIRABLE?

Why are the Blood Angels a more competitive chapter than the Ultramarines? Why are their unit selections different?

They just are. You get unique units, we get a better CM aura. Know your own rules and leave your opponent to know theirs.

LOL imagine saying Blood Angels were more competitive than Ultramarines and being serious about it.

They might be at the moment. I have seen the ways of tripoint at all costs and its pretty obnoxious. Especially if BA go first.

Erm, Slayer. Where have you been?

They are currently one of the best Chapters. Probably 3rd after Iron Hands and Raven Guard.

Only because of the meta. BA crumble to psychic armies and armies with counter assault. But greedy marine players go all-in on shooting, and then get tripointed and lose.

I am fully able to play the game with Azrael's aura being worse than a chapter master from a different, newer Codex because they are from different Codexes. There is no Chapter Master USR to get confused about. Its quite clear in each Codex - no rules argument required. I can't reroll my 3s and he can. Sad for me but the game keeps going. If it really bothered me I suppose I would play that other force. It doesn't bother me (enough) so I don't. I was hoping that Ritual of the Damned would address that but, alas. Azrael's points did come down...

Regardless, no rules dispute possible. Even if my opponent said "Go ahead - reroll those 3s" I wouldn't. Its not because I am a rules stickler, but I know this particular rule and with my army I am in for a penny, in for a pound. Dance with who brought you to the dance. Etc etc.

Anyhoo - stay safe and well everyone

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am fully able to play the game with Azrael's aura being worse than a chapter master from a different, newer Codex because they are from different Codexes. There is no Chapter Master USR to get confused about. Its quite clear in each Codex - no rules argument required. I can't reroll my 3s and he can. Sad for me but the game keeps going. If it really bothered me I suppose I would play that other force. It doesn't bother me (enough) so I don't. I was hoping that Ritual of the Damned would address that but, alas. Azrael's points did come down...

Regardless, no rules dispute possible. Even if my opponent said "Go ahead - reroll those 3s" I wouldn't. Its not because I am a rules stickler, but I know this particular rule and with my army I am in for a penny, in for a pound. Dance with who brought you to the dance. Etc etc.

Anyhoo - stay safe and well everyone

It just makes no sense for Azrael or Dante, so we refuse to accept GW's oversight. The RAI is clear. At least, to us. Also, if the improved aura were on papa smurf and Bobby G only, then RAI would be far less clear. But the generic chapter masters get it (who shouldn't exist in my book), so that means Dante and Azrael must have it as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh man. I wish Ishagu was on the dev team.

Perhaps the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, as well as the Space Wolves are too divergent from the standard codex to gain the same CM aura. They trade that for other rules and unique units.

It's not confusing or unclear, and as they are different books there is no point of contention.

Yeah, there is. A major one. The RAI is clear. GW has a history of being very lazy. THere is no way that Dante should be inferior to a generic space marine chapter master. There is no justfication possible for that outcome. I realize this is a group by group issue, but it's still an issue. Because GW is so unreliable and unresponsive to questions.

BA were codex compliant in many editions as well.

Nope lol. That's your opinion. There is no clear RAI argument here.

 Ishagu wrote:
Perhaps the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, as well as the Space Wolves are too divergent from the standard codex to gain the same CM aura. They trade that for other rules and unique units.

It's not confusing or unclear, and as they are different books there is no point of contention.

It's confusing when rules for similar units are similar but not identical. I have no problem whatsoever with the Chapter Masters of different Chapters having different special rules... but in that case they should be really different, rather than just the same rule with slightly different effects. If Chapter Masters confer a re-roll, for clarity it's best to either make it the same and give them other rules to differentiate them, or make it a stepped rule (Re-roll Hits [x]) where the rule name itself defines what effect it has.

Well all its all opinion when GW is involved seemingly.

Which is why USRs are better for them.

 Ishagu wrote:
Nope lol. That's your opinion. There is no clear RAI argument here.

And why do you get to decide what might be RAI and what’s not?

 insaniak wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Perhaps the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, as well as the Space Wolves are too divergent from the standard codex to gain the same CM aura. They trade that for other rules and unique units.

It's not confusing or unclear, and as they are different books there is no point of contention.

It's confusing when rules for similar units are similar but not identical. I have no problem whatsoever with the Chapter Masters of different Chapters having different special rules... but in that case they should be really different, rather than just the same rule with slightly different effects. If Chapter Masters confer a re-roll, for clarity it's best to either make it the same and give them other rules to differentiate them, or make it a stepped rule (Re-roll Hits [x]) where the rule name itself defines what effect it has.

This is all I"m really asking for. But it ALSO makes no sense that Dante is inferior to unnamed chapter masters.

PLus, I guarantee the other chapter masters get this wording at some point in the future. THey were just lazy and cut and pasted or forgot to errata this go around.

Edited by insaniak. Stick to the topic.

Martel732 wrote:
. But it ALSO makes no sense that Dante is inferior to unnamed chapter masters.

On this, I'll disagree. It makes perfect sense for specific Chapter Masters to be inferior to generic or other named Chapter Masters in some specific respects, assuming that he makes up for it elsewhere. Every Chapter Master doesn't have to be equally as good at everything as all of his peers... that would be flavourless and dull.


Hell, while an argument can be made for Dante needing to be awesome to represent his status, there's not even any specific need for named characters in general to be better than their generic peers. The point of special characters is to be different, not necessarily better.

Fair enough, but you think Dante should be less inspiring or whatever than a generic chapter master? I think that's absurd. And for every snowflake chapter to have the same flaw? That reeks of oversight.

Almost like Chapter masters should have a USR......

Why are we arguing about why Dante's Chapter Master Aura is worst than those from Codex Space Marines. We all know it is for one simple reason. GW updated the rules for the Chapter Master Aura in the new Codex Space Marines for reasons, but hasn't issued errata for the other chapter's Chapter Master Auras. I'll be you a beer they will update them to match when they produce new Codex Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Death Watch/etc.

@Martel

Dante isn't less inspiring, but perhaps he is less Tactical when it comes to ranged firepower tactics? Who knows.

The rule is different, but as Dante is a unit for a seperate codex you shouldn't expect guaranteed parity.
Lucky for you he's a unit in one of the strongest chapters.

40K has to be the only game I've ever seen where a minor distinction between two virtually identical types of re-rolls (that only comes into play when penalties are in effect) is not only seen as anything other than sloppy writing, but lauded as a meaningful way of differentiating between two factions.

Games with less single-mindedly defensive fans get rightly raked over the coals for stuff like this.

Quit trying to explain it away. Alextroy is correct.

" one of the strongest chapters."

Whose path to said power is gamey and cheap. It's hollow to be "powerful" when I despise the mode of power. I want to use units other than DC and SG. I want to use Dante. I can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Why are we arguing about why Dante's Chapter Master Aura is worst than those from Codex Space Marines. We all know it is for one simple reason. GW updated the rules for the Chapter Master Aura in the new Codex Space Marines for reasons, but hasn't issued errata for the other chapter's Chapter Master Auras. I'll be you a beer they will update them to match when they produce new Codex Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Death Watch/etc.

It's also an illustration of why USRs are a good thing.

Also, I suspect Cawl-style rerolls is how they intended it all along. Then, that document came about about modifiers after rerolls and messed it all up.

 alextroy wrote:
Why are we arguing about why Dante's Chapter Master Aura is worst than those from Codex Space Marines. We all know it is for one simple reason. GW updated the rules for the Chapter Master Aura in the new Codex Space Marines for reasons, but hasn't issued errata for the other chapter's Chapter Master Auras. I'll be you a beer they will update them to match when they produce new Codex Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Death Watch/etc.

When 5e Space Marines got 35pt Rhinos it took a long time before they got around to updating anyone else's.

 Ishagu wrote:
@Martel

Dante isn't less inspiring, but perhaps he is less Tactical when it comes to ranged firepower tactics? Who knows.

The rule is different, but as Dante is a unit for a seperate codex you shouldn't expect guaranteed parity.
Lucky for you he's a unit in one of the strongest chapters.

Why is his aura slightly different in the first place? How do these minor differences make the game more fun?

 Ishagu wrote:
Erm, Slayer. Where have you been?

They are currently one of the best Chapters. Probably 3rd after Iron Hands and Raven Guard.

LOL no they're not. Psychic Awakening gave them nothing that the standard codex can't do better. They're still the same gimmick Slamguinus and always will be because they're written that way.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
Erm, Slayer. Where have you been?

They are currently one of the best Chapters. Probably 3rd after Iron Hands and Raven Guard.

LOL no they're not. Psychic Awakening gave them nothing that the standard codex can't do better. They're still the same gimmick Slamguinus and always will be because they're written that way.

That's not completely true. Box doesn't even use smash capt. What IS true is that it's always DC + SG plus support characters plus constant tripointing.

 catbarf wrote:
40K has to be the only game I've ever seen where a minor distinction between two virtually identical types of re-rolls (that only comes into play when penalties are in effect) is not only seen as anything other than sloppy writing, but lauded as a meaningful way of differentiating between two factions.

Games with less single-mindedly defensive fans get rightly raked over the coals for stuff like this.

Agreed. The idea that Dante has a different re-roll rule than random Chapter Master #758 for flavour purposes is kind of stupid when there's no actual evidence of that in his rule. It's just the older rule because GW were too lazy to update it and inexplicably refuse to use USRs. I notice nobody seemed to have a problem with his rule being the same as every other Chapter Master's before the change in the most recent SM Codex but now it's all part of the Grand Plan(tm) which us peons should just acknowledge as being superior in every way because we do not truly understand the genius of the GW design process.

I don't even disagree with the idea that maybe Dante, for example, should have a different Chapter Master bonus. Maybe he should get a more close combat-focussed rule instead of the generic re-rolls. But he doesn't, so the point is moot. Just like all these arguments against USRs that they allow for more characterful rules don't actually cite any examples, there's no foundation for such a claim. Deep Strike is the same across almost every single unit that has it on their datasheet but it's called something different in every army for...reasons. The only thing this has accomplished in practical, real-world terms is to make identifying units with the rule more difficult than it needs to be. Again, I'd like to aske anyone not in favour of USRs to explain why it's better to have two identical rules in both effect and wording called two completely different things? What advantage does that serve?

Also, for the love of God can we leave off the pointless complaints about Blood Angels from the usual suspects? This is a thread about USRs, not tri-pointing or the relative power levels of different armies.

Slipspace wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
40K has to be the only game I've ever seen where a minor distinction between two virtually identical types of re-rolls (that only comes into play when penalties are in effect) is not only seen as anything other than sloppy writing, but lauded as a meaningful way of differentiating between two factions.

Games with less single-mindedly defensive fans get rightly raked over the coals for stuff like this.

Agreed. The idea that Dante has a different re-roll rule than random Chapter Master #758 for flavour purposes is kind of stupid when there's no actual evidence of that in his rule. It's just the older rule because GW were too lazy to update it and inexplicably refuse to use USRs. I notice nobody seemed to have a problem with his rule being the same as every other Chapter Master's before the change in the most recent SM Codex but now it's all part of the Grand Plan(tm) which us peons should just acknowledge as being superior in every way because we do not truly understand the genius of the GW design process.

I don't even disagree with the idea that maybe Dante, for example, should have a different Chapter Master bonus. Maybe he should get a more close combat-focussed rule instead of the generic re-rolls. But he doesn't, so the point is moot. Just like all these arguments against USRs that they allow for more characterful rules don't actually cite any examples, there's no foundation for such a claim. Deep Strike is the same across almost every single unit that has it on their datasheet but it's called something different in every army for...reasons. The only thing this has accomplished in practical, real-world terms is to make identifying units with the rule more difficult than it needs to be. Again, I'd like to aske anyone not in favour of USRs to explain why it's better to have two identical rules in both effect and wording called two completely different things? What advantage does that serve?

Also, for the love of God can we leave off the pointless complaints about Blood Angels from the usual suspects? This is a thread about USRs, not tri-pointing or the relative power levels of different armies.

Well, that's incorrect.

Tyranids have 9 different rules for deepstrike with 9 different effects. Covering them all with an USR would be quite difficult.

And i'm not even counting GSC in this.

Why? just make all 9 work the same. Why should tyranids get 9 different rules, for more or less the same thing. Specialy when GW already did stuff like that with rules for other armies. And if somehow a rule has to be different, then just make it a 2CP stratagem.