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 Jjohnso11 wrote:
The expression as I've stated before is elitist and was seemingly started by someone on social media looking for a laugh or attention. What I'm addressing in my responses is geared toward this statement.

'People's problems in the first world seem more and more trivial and those needs must be met.'

If you didn't read the original post and you were solely responding to my posts we're playing a game of talking past each other because I'm defending my response to a specific post and to make a point.

But it isn't elitist. It's specifically a bottom up critique. Your initial position that I responded to was that it trivialises real problems encountered by persons in affluent countries, citing that homelessness was hard wherever you were. That isn't what the expression does, though. It critiques the presentation of things that are insignificant even within their own context as major concerns (in origin, most often its used self-deprecatingly now).

There is inherent elitism in the First-second-third world model, and in the more modern first-third model, but these are distinct from 'first world problems. I think you're conflating fair objections to the former with the latter, then making quite odd assumptions about persons who use (or do not use) the phrase based on that flawed grounding.

@jjohnso11

If you're referring to my original thread post I clarified things in the edit at the bottom of the post. My bigger issue was the laziness in which some things were done. Outrage mobs in one direction or another, virtual hashtag activism which can be low effort and lazy and other such things. My issue is more with people saying "thoughts and prayers" than offering physical help in the real world or putting in actual effort. I also made a point that I'm not saying every issue in a first world country matters less. I've seen and been to impoverished places in the usa. Also working to keep your family fed is legit. However an angry Karen mad at people working a service job is a very first world problem as is a bad yelp review for petty and small things.

Isn't that Always the way of Things, People complaining About small Things they actually believe in leading to People complaining because complaining itself has become en-vouge?

There's a lot of money and power to trade in getting folks riled up. Whether it's using headlines to get clicks and eyeballs to sell ads, or getting campaign donations and votes, a world where people are constantly outraged, ramped up, and so on is much more profitable than a world where people get along with their business and are content. So while it's true that people without a problem will often find one, there's also a series of devoted enterprises helping you find problems they can profit from. With the internet and the matrix that people can plug into, I've watched people go from being normal to hyperdrive cause heads yelling at clouds and fighting phantoms that don't exist or matter.

Go outside. Stare at the trees and rocks for a while, realize how long they've been there without giving a gak about modern problems, then revisit the question of what really matters and what's just noise.

ETA:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
@jjohnso11

If you're referring to my original thread post I clarified things in the edit at the bottom of the post. My bigger issue was the laziness in which some things were done. Outrage mobs in one direction or another, virtual hashtag activism which can be low effort and lazy and other such things. My issue is more with people saying "thoughts and prayers" than offering physical help in the real world or putting in actual effort. I also made a point that I'm not saying every issue in a first world country matters less. I've seen and been to impoverished places in the usa. Also working to keep your family fed is legit. However an angry Karen mad at people working a service job is a very first world problem as is a bad yelp review for petty and small things.

Now as for "Thoughts and prayers". Sometimes there ain't much someone can or even should do other than let you know they care. That's how that phrase is usually used, a social cue to communicate they empathize with you. Be aware you may not be able to see all the ways people do engage in physical help for the real world, it just may not be in a direction you see or prefer. One could point to people full of outrage saying "do something for the poor" that don't actually do anything for the poor themselves (I have relatives like this, who think it's "everyone's" job to help, but theirs).

Is there a specific set of "thoughts prayers" issues that bother you most?

I think the problem with the 'T&P' thing is not the sentiment itself, its the potential for those who don't express that sentiment publicly, being chastised for not doing so. It allows people to be high and mighty, and lord over others.

Weirdly, originally the terms First Second and Third World had nothing to do with either the Cold War or economic status, but with geography.
As Europe was coming out of the Dark Ages and started sailing out across the world, they grouped the world in three categories, the First World - Europe and the Middle East (because Jerusalem was where Jesus used to live) where (their) civilization began;
the Second World - Africa, and (I think parts of) Asia);
and once the other continents were discovered, the Third World - the Americas, Australia, and the Pacific.

Obviously, the meaning of the term has shifted multiple times over the years. I wouldn't go so far as to call the grouping elitist or racist though. Self-centered, maybe, but that's a very human trait, no?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
.. . . mobility scooters, constant efforts to improve people's lives due to dissatisfaction with increasingly trivial things. . . .

Not sure what the overall point with mentioning mobility scooters is, however there is definitely some first world problems with them. . . . See, I know, and you know that they are intended for people who have a disability that makes it hard to walk. . . What i see, and what you likely usually see, is someone who's only "disability" is that they are 500 lbs of lard, and only got that way because they started using the scooters 200 lbs ago.

I've a good friend who was using a crosswalk (legally) to cross the road, was hit by a car, and had major nerve damage in the hip region (surprisingly, or not. . depending, this damage was on the side of her body that struck the road, not the side struck by the car) . . . For many many months, she struggled through the grocery store with a cane or crutches, because those fatarses were all using the scooters when they likely shouldn't have been. This situation obviously caused excess stress on her, due to the physical discomfort and pain being caused by simply walking through a grocery store. . . . On top of all that, because she's only a couple years younger than me (and I'm in my mid-30s now), she would regularly get stared/glared at because clearly due to her age, she "shouldn't" be handicapped in any way. And this applied to the temp handicap placard she was issued for parking in the handicap spot.

Im not sure if your point was that mobility scooters ARE trivial, or that they are used in a trivial way, but I regularly see them misused, and there really isn't something feasible/legal that can be done about it.

Many disability aids are open to abuse, even the humble crutch.

In the U.K., they’re sometimes referred to as ‘Dole Poles’, an item used by the terminally unemployed to pretend to have a disability, so they get more benefits.

I dare say this is the same thing elsewhere.

But, it doesn’t mean all with them are faking it. Same with mobility scooters. For those of limited mobility, it’s got to be hard to maintain a healthier weight, as exercise is that much harder.

@Ensis Ferrae: Have you never seen people hit the handicap button to open a door automatically into a building or parked in a handicapped space when they sometimes take a handicapped person in their car but aren't currently with a handicapped person (so basically they don't need the handicapped space). My issue with mobility scooters is the same as what was shown way back in south park. Perhaps it started to help people but most of the people using them are super overweight. I won't tease them but if somebody else truly needs them it's poor form. You wouldn't use an electric wheelchair if you didn't need it.

@RegularGuy: Your post is very good. My issue with 'thoughts and prayers' is it feels low effort and a way to show support without actually doing something. If this was legit support and you had no other way then maybe. However it's just so empty and being on the internet I've seen far too many people 'show support' and do absolutely nothing. It seems to be more that they're either too lazy, don't really care, they just want to feel noble without doing anything or that they want people to pat them on the back for doing nothing.

@Mad Doc Grotsnik: As somebody with autism that has at one time been on food stamps and also seen others get those things I can say with certainty people abuse the system (including me to my humiliation) when they often don't need to. I've seen people that have had jobs or could have jobs just do nothing all day but play video games. One guy even said he could work but after 3-4 years of working never intended to work again and he often played facebook games and got drunk off money received from the government. It is utterly disgusting and to an extent I was one of the people abusing the system till I got a job. It's a pathetic life which doesn't give anything and often has issues with self-worth. I don't just work now because I need to. I work because it gives my life a purpose and a feeling of being needed. Even if it's a lower wage job at least somewhere out there I am needed and that part feels good. I realize some of you on this forum might think government programs are totally awesome and sometimes they're alright but in my experience seeing people use them or seeing the services in action they seem to not be run the best or people getting the services or giving them at times really don't put proper effort into them. There are people that are helpful in every part of these things but often my experience with these programs is bad. My half sister does more for me than places getting government funds and she gets paid nothing. They were supposed to find me a job and it turned out my family got me the job I've had now for 8 years. I realize a lot of you guys have good intentions but my experience with these services has been under-whelming.

I guess that last bit got off-topic though.

Consider being in the same situation, except your family is unable to find you a job and there are no unemployment benefits.

That's why they exist. They're far from perfect, but the alternative would be morally abhorrent.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Consider being in the same situation, except your family is unable to find you a job and there are no unemployment benefits.

That's why they exist. They're far from perfect, but the alternative would be morally abhorrent.

Maybe but a lot of people I've seen have both family and gov't benefits and they give no effort. In one case a dude's mom bought a house for her very own son to live in by himself and he never really worked or tried or did anything and still got gov't funds. Keep in mind he was very much capable to work. Maybe you think the alternative is bad but i'm not saying I want that alternative either. I'd support somebody putting in effort while on gov't funds but there are those that don't put any effort in anything at all and never care and the gov't shouldn't support that sort of behavior. If you want money you have to put some minimal effort into it. That's not asking for a lot.

If nothing else the system needs to be fixed BIG TIME.

Yup.

Around 10 years ago, I was homeless and working one day a week.

Longer serving Dakkanauts may recognise this tale.

I was essentially at Rock Bottom. Couple of lucky breaks and 10 years later, I now earn really decent money, have a two bedroom flat ( with a lodger, because I’m not on stupid money) and am doing pretty well.

The trick is to not look down on the less fortunate as an instant reaction. Yes, there are absolutely those that take the piss. That’s part of the human condition. Create a system, any system, and someone is going to take the piss. Could be social benefits. Could be tax dodging by registering your multi-national in Switzerland. And indeed everything in between,

It doesn’t make the system wrong, or inherently broken. Very, very few disabled people are faking it for the money.

You have to push through the common claims in the media, because left, right or centre, there’s an agenda in there somewhere.

No, do not start blaming everything on Mainstream Media. That’s a rabbit hole to avoid. Instead, look at how the left, the right, and the centre, report the same thing. Pick your own bones out of that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yup.

Around 10 years ago, I was homeless and working one day a week.

Longer serving Dakkanauts may recognise this tale.

I was essentially at Rock Bottom. Couple of lucky breaks and 10 years later, I now earn really decent money, have a two bedroom flat ( with a lodger, because I’m not on stupid money) and am doing pretty well.

The trick is to not look down on the less fortunate as an instant reaction. Yes, there are absolutely those that take the piss. That’s part of the human condition. Create a system, any system, and someone is going to take the piss. Could be social benefits. Could be tax dodging by registering your multi-national in Switzerland. And indeed everything in between,

It doesn’t make the system wrong, or inherently broken. Very, very few disabled people are faking it for the money.

You have to push through the common claims in the media, because left, right or centre, there’s an agenda in there somewhere.

No, do not start blaming everything on Mainstream Media. That’s a rabbit hole to avoid. Instead, look at how the left, the right, and the centre, report the same thing. Pick your own bones out of that.

I lived in a halfway home and I disagree with a lot of this. A lot of the people I saw came from fairly well off families and still screwed around and got gov't money. Some were rich and screwed up far more after the fact, some were poor with families, some had issues whether mental or on drugs and some actually did care and put effort in. I'd actually say the ones I saw which put effort in at least here in Michigan were generally few in number in comparison. Perhaps it's different for you. The issue I saw is plenty of people here took advantage of services and either let their depression consume them or they just screwed around gaming or something all day and didn't try to work.

I thought I made it clear but I think you posted before I edited my post. I prefer people to get gov't funds through trying to seek employment or school. It's about effort. Zero effort and you get zero gov't funds. Full stop.

Life simply isn’t that black and white. At all.

As I said? Create a system, any system, and someone will abuse it.

Daft example? Dakka’s swear filter. I know certain rude words it doesn’t auto-censor. If I wanted to, and didn’t care if it gave the Mods a hard time, I could turn the air blue and make a sailor blush.

You seem focussed on your experience being the only experience. And I’m afraid that’s simply not the case.

Now, some of that may be cultural. You’re in the USA, I’m in the U.K. I’m not gonna offer a comparison, as that just seems needlessly baiting.

But.

But?

You seem to have already decided someone on the bones of their arse wants to be there, and doesn’t want to do anything about it. You seem to think anyone in a mobility scooter is somehow faking it, or got one and now needs one because they’ve got one.

This is only my interpretation of what you’ve posted so far. And I could well be wide of the mark, because without tone of voice it’s hard to get not what someone is saying, but how they’re saying. So please don’t think I’m being confrontational etc.s

I've just been jaded by what I've seen. As far as the mobility scooter thing I think there are cases where it's needed. Just haven't seen as many lately.

I'm not saying anybody here is bad. I just think my experience has shown too many people that dont care, let their problems depress them into inaction and more depression or people that take advantage of the system and do nothing. I know a couple that have worked out of poverty through these means. I just have been jaded too much by people taking advantage off the good nature of others. I'm not saying I'm fully good either.

Anyway it probably is about location too. Pontiac at the halfway house was a small but poor city and we were on the border of it. I met all types here but more often bad or allowed depression or addiction to take them. When I was in the place in Rochester hills (a rich city) all 3 of us had minor disabilities and could have jobs but only I had one. I did the most cleaning and I feel like I put the most effort into that place of anybody living there. Neither of them put effort into getting a job and both came from families that could afford to help them but they still got government funding.

Anyway this is veering off the main topic and getting political. It might be best for us both to get back on topic.

Trouble with depression? You need to see a road out. And that’s a sadly rare thing these days, the way the chips are stacked.

Me? I’m lucky. 2018, I went over the edge and was off work for 3 months. Full pay, full support, no added stress. Went back, got even better, smashed it.

When I found out Mum’s cancer was terminal a little over a year ago? I knew I didn’t have to worry about my job. When the thought of my first Christmas without Mum kicked my square in the nuts? Few more weeks off work, with full pay and no judgment.

Again, returned to the saddle and forged ahead once more.

I know I am lucky. Even if everything in my life goes belly up? I can go move in with Dad, so would still have a roof over me head,

You need to snap yourself out of ‘being jaded ‘. Been there, done that, got slapped by reality and got a better perspective.

You look out for you. Don’t envy others. Don’t sneer at others. That’s a waste of mental energy, of which we only have finite amounts each day.

Head down. Do your best day in, day out. Fight for every inch. Don’t ever consider yourself to have won - but don’t treat a failure as a loss, only a learning experience.

Be the example for others. Show them you can rise above relatively humble origins and life’s misfortunes. Show them you’re not shackled to a fate.

Maybe they can’t follow you. Everyone has different pressure. That bloke you sneer at for not taking career risks? Maybe he’s earning enough to provide stability for his family. That person in the mobility scooter? How do you know they’re not on their way to an office job? One of our higher ups is wheelchair bound.

Do. Not. Judge.

Keep to your own. Share your own fortune. Do your best to raise up those close to you.

I dunno man. One of the guys was doing drugs. Last i heard years later he was doing some hardcore drugs you could easily overdose and die on which caused him to become really skinny and unhealthy and he roped a roommate into both drinking again and giving drug addled friend drug money.

Said friend of drug guy was my roommate for a while. He mostly just gamed and got drunk and stayed depressed. He never wanted to do anything whenever we offered to go out. I get he had cerebral palsy and could barely walk but he messed his life up by drinking and driving. He had a job for several years and chose to stop working ever again.

Also turned out the religious guy in a wheelchair that had his life fairly on track did some drugs too supposedly.

There was another one that was mostly decent and cleaned but sadly being schizophrenic it ruined him and he ended up stealing his girlfriend's dog and moving to Florida because he believed due to his disorder that everybody in the house was evil.

Another which tried to join the army way back but couldn't because he was schizophrenic and often drank and was depressed and sadly his illness rolled the dice poorly and he was mentally slowed too. He was often homeless and it's sad but you gotta pick yourself up.

As far as one of the ones in the last place one did do volunteer work and school but seemed to get bad grades. However he never got a job.

The other one was a legit self described neo Nazi (his words, not mine) and he had a swastika armband. He was lazy, a thief and probably awful 90 percent of the time. He was maybe nice to a friend a couple times but was usually a jerk and didn't work or do anything and treated his rich mom like crap while she just took it like a battered housewife. It was infuriating to watch.

I feel bad for the schizo people because they can't totally help it but saying you can't fix up your life or it isn't what you should do for govt funds is absurd. If you can fix yourself up you should. I did somewhat and it gave me more self worth. Living completely off govt funds without a purpose will just depress you more. I know because I did and I felt that way. Being needed helps a lot.

There was a bunch of other people. There was often drug issues or mental disabilities involved. Usually things went bad for them as far as I know.

Really feeling there’s a cultural difference at play here.

All I can say is that I’ve not sought to be critical of you, only tried to offer a different perspective.

You? You keep your chin up, keep on swinging. Take that chance. We only lose when we quit.

My wife is pretty messed up in the health department, but looks very young for her age. Frequently, I would grab her a wheelchair and push her around, or she would use a cane. It was amazing how many people judged us both positively and negatively for the situation.

Honestly, healthcare challenges are really weird. Healthy folks have a really hard time wrapping their head around them, even folks that you have know your whole life. Unless you live them, it is really hard to understand and empathize with them.

Speaking of first-world problems. My dishwasher is broken at the moment (heater has failed) so I'm having to wash everything up by hand. My God I'd forgotten what a pain in the bum that is. No-one will come out and repair it, it's not considered an essential appliance. Bloody is.

Damn I've never had a dishwasher in my house. I'm quite glad as I don't want to become dependent on them.

Saying that, the Mrs usually does the washing up in our house (omg such oppression!)

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Damn I've never had a dishwasher in my house. I'm quite glad as I don't want to become dependent on them.

Saying that, the Mrs usually does the washing up in our house (omg such oppression!)

Didn't have room for one in our previous house. I probably spent an hour a day washing up. I enjoyed getting that time back!

Crispy78 wrote:
Speaking of first-world problems. My dishwasher is broken at the moment (heater has failed) so I'm having to wash everything up by hand. My God I'd forgotten what a pain in the bum that is. No-one will come out and repair it, it's not considered an essential appliance. Bloody is.

Really? I was raised up doing the dishes by hand, so dishwashers are abhorrent to me. I usually don't do the full tub of dishwater cleaning method either, so I think I manage to save more energy and water doing it by hand IMO and given how sauce/oil heavy Asian cooking can be with our woks/stir-fry, I find it better to clean it in the actual sink than using the dishwasher and hoping for the best.

 Grimskul wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:
Speaking of first-world problems. My dishwasher is broken at the moment (heater has failed) so I'm having to wash everything up by hand. My God I'd forgotten what a pain in the bum that is. No-one will come out and repair it, it's not considered an essential appliance. Bloody is.

Really? I was raised up doing the dishes by hand, so dishwashers are abhorrent to me. I usually don't do the full tub of dishwater cleaning method either, so I think I manage to save more energy and water doing it by hand IMO and given how sauce/oil heavy Asian cooking can be with our woks/stir-fry, I find it better to clean it in the actual sink than using the dishwasher and hoping for the best.

A reasonably modern dishwasher is both more energy- and water-efficient, and cleans better, than washing by hand:
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/why-you-should-use-a-dishwasher-instead-of-cleaning-by-hand-10229612.html

Honestly, there's an argument to be made that lack of a dishwasher, or even more so a washing machine, is very much a third-world problem. You save so much time compared to having to do it by hand; time that is better spent doing something else.

I'd say that depends. As a family unit of 3(soon to be 4) we don't really create enough dirty dishes and crockery to justify doing dishwasher loads after each meal. I hate having dirty stuff laying around. I can't see how running a sink full of hot water (which takes about 2 minutes) is less energy efficient than running a dishwasher load. Financial wise you also have to pay for the thing and any repairs.

Plus I don't have room in my kitchen. I'd have to remove the washing machine.

You don't run it after each meal, you run it when it's full

Yeah but then I have to buy more crockery. I dont have cupboards full of plates ready to go, I have just over the bare minimum. My wife had to basically force me to buy more stuff when we moved in together.

Sure, if you have that little stuff to wash then they don't really make sense. They're more useful for people with 2-3 children and 2 adults in one house and washing everything by hand takes too much time.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Yeah but then I have to buy more crockery. I dont have cupboards full of plates ready to go, I have just over the bare minimum. My wife had to basically force me to buy more stuff when we moved in together.

But... But how do you have dinner parties??? [/MiddleClass]