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I'm new to army making but I was wondering if its possible to run chaos daemons from all 4 gods, isnt it if they're the same faction you can use them. (Grey Knights w Astra Militarum)as an example.

Yes, you can do that, all units, from all four gods, in one detachment. But its not a good idea, because you dont get any buffs, you only get those with pure mono god detachments. It would be better to do four detachments, one for each god.

GenChicken wrote:
I'm new to army making but I was wondering if its possible to run chaos daemons from all 4 gods, isnt it if they're the same faction you can use them. (Grey Knights w Astra Militarum)as an example.

Yes, it is, but two of them won't get their doctrine.

You can have up to 3 detachments in most matched play scenarios. [Unless you're going to go on about how GW Tourney Recommendations are homebrew and something something competitive players are ruining everything]

Thus, you can have, for example, 1 detachment of Slaanesh (which would get it's trait), 1 detachment on Khorne (which would get it's trait), and then the last detachment would have Nurgle and Tzeentch (which would not get their traits, since they're a mixed detachment), or any combination thereof.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

GenChicken wrote:
I'm new to army making but I was wondering if its possible to run chaos daemons from all 4 gods, isnt it if they're the same faction you can use them. (Grey Knights w Astra Militarum)as an example.

Yes, it is, but two of them won't get their doctrine.

You can have up to 3 detachments in most matched play scenarios. [Unless you're going to go on about how GW Tourney Recommendations are homebrew and something something competitive players are ruining everything]

Not true, there is no restriction how many detachments you can have in matched play. The 3 detachment limit is only a suggestion for organized play at 1.5-2k. If some players use it in matched play it's a house rule.

I pre-empted you . And so is the Rule of 3.

That said, basically all pick-up games I every play abide by GW Recommendations for Organized Matched Play on page 214... because it's convenient for everybody to be organized for walking in and getting a game.

When people say you don't get any buffs what do they mean? There are issues of no synergy but you only explicitly lose the Locus buffs as far as I can see.

Thats undesirable but some are less important than others.

The loci are pretty essential to all but Tzeench daemons.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I pre-empted you . And so is the Rule of 3.

That said, basically all pick-up games I every play abide by GW Recommendations for Organized Matched Play on page 214... because it's convenient for everybody to be organized for walking in and getting a game.

Except for the people who don't play with the optional tournament stuff because they don't attend tournaments.

Also OP yes you can put all 4 factions in one army but its really hard to do in a way that maintains the buffs you get for mono-god detachments as the amount of characters you'll be running is high and the daemon Troop choices are expensive and generally only effective in high numbers (unless you want to spam nurglings I guess).

I'm not saying it can't be done but its not the most effective way to play even casually because its super restrictive but it can be a fun puzzle figuring it out.

It's a fact that most games are played using the optional organized play rules.

Whether they are meant for tournament play is utterly irrelevant when they have become a de facto standard.

Telling a new player otherwise is bad advice.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's a fact that most games are played using the optional organized play rules.

Whether they are meant for tournament play is utterly irrelevant when they have become a de facto standard.

Telling a new player otherwise is bad advice.

I highly doubt that. You cannot speak for the majority of players. Fact is, there is no limit to the number of detachments in matched play. House rules that limit those don't change that.

p5freak is right, I highly doubt the majority of games use tournament rules. It might seem that way on Dakka but Dakka is a very... special subset of the 40k fandom.

So, in short, yes it's possible, but it's a bad idea, best to focus on a single god and mix in CSM with Daemons rather than trying to run all daemons.

I suspect that most do use the Rule of Three. This is obviously ancedotal on my part, but most of the players I encounter are either of a competitive preference (and thus wish to use tournament rules), or they cleave toward 'fun and fluffy' games, and do not appreciate someone turning up with 9 Flyrants, and the Rule of Three is a convenient (albeit blunt) tool to deal with it.

Most gamers in my experience prefer the rule of three because if they're organizing the game ahead of time it's organized play, and if it's a pickup game it's usually on a specific game night at a store so it's an organized event anyways...

GenChicken wrote:
I'm new to army making but I was wondering if its possible to run chaos daemons from all 4 gods, isnt it if they're the same faction you can use them. (Grey Knights w Astra Militarum)as an example.

All 4 gods of Chaos Daemons, as well as all the Chaos Space Marine armies (Chaos Space Marines, Thousand Sons, and Death Guard) can be run together in an army.

What others are referring to here is that an army is constructed in chunks called Detachments, and if everything within 1 detachment shares the same specific keyword, which for Chaos Daemons is the same god, then they gain access to a special rule that in many cases is a key part of the army's character in the game.

For example, if all the units in a detachment are Slaanesh Daemons, they gain the ability to Advance in their movement phase, and still charge into close combat later in the turn. This potentially makes them much faster than most armies in the game, and a lot of people consider that to be a core part of the Slaanesh playstyle.

It is worth knowing though that for some of the daemon armies, that ability is less important. I know a lot of people who play daemons of Nurgle and Tzeentch who don't bother to make their whole detachment of one god, because the special ability they get is often less important to them than having allies to help them out.

 p5freak wrote:
I highly doubt that. You cannot speak for the majority of players. Fact is, there is no limit to the number of detachments in matched play. House rules that limit those don't change that.

I'm not speaking for anyone. I made multiple polls here on dakka confirming exactly this. Almost all anecdotal evidence confirms these numbers.

You can assume that more than 70% of the people reading dakka are using the detachment limit. Even more people are using the rule of three. Feel free to provide/collect data proving the opposite.

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I highly doubt that. You cannot speak for the majority of players. Fact is, there is no limit to the number of detachments in matched play. House rules that limit those don't change that.

I'm not speaking for anyone. I made multiple polls here on dakka confirming exactly this. Almost all anecdotal evidence confirms these numbers.

You can assume that more than 70% of the people reading dakka are using the detachment limit. Even more people are using the rule of three. Feel free to provide/collect data proving the opposite.

Unless something catastrophic happened while I wasn't looking (it's 2020, anything can happen), the users of DakkaDakka are not the "majority of players".

 Jidmah wrote:
The loci are pretty essential to all but Tzeench daemons.

Nah, the Nurgle one is annoying and isn't super valuable IMO. The locus prevents you from fast rolling your wounds and requires you to maintain the order that the wounds were given in. Extra annoying because Nurgle has a lot of re-roll to wounds. In addition it means that your opponent can't bulk roll their saves as they need to save or apply the normal damage and the +1 damage in the order they were received in.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I highly doubt that. You cannot speak for the majority of players. Fact is, there is no limit to the number of detachments in matched play. House rules that limit those don't change that.

I'm not speaking for anyone. I made multiple polls here on dakka confirming exactly this. Almost all anecdotal evidence confirms these numbers.

You can assume that more than 70% of the people reading dakka are using the detachment limit. Even more people are using the rule of three. Feel free to provide/collect data proving the opposite.

Unless something catastrophic happened while I wasn't looking (it's 2020, anything can happen), the users of DakkaDakka are not the "majority of players".

I really hope no one thinks Dakka's attitude to the game is representative of the majority because it really reflects badly on the community if they do.

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I highly doubt that. You cannot speak for the majority of players. Fact is, there is no limit to the number of detachments in matched play. House rules that limit those don't change that.

I'm not speaking for anyone. I made multiple polls here on dakka confirming exactly this. Almost all anecdotal evidence confirms these numbers.

You can assume that more than 70% of the people reading dakka are using the detachment limit. Even more people are using the rule of three. Feel free to provide/collect data proving the opposite.

Right You made that statement, you have to prove it

In my area, the rule of three exists, both for units and number of the attachments. I would play three of the guards. If I’m running the infernal tetrad, plus Be’Lakor, it can be done without suffering because you don’t need the traits.

Time to weigh in on rule of three and detachment limits again.

On page 114 of the Drukari Codex there are rules for how many command points you get if you include 6+ patrol detachments.

Argument over. GW clearly printed rules that acknowledge the armies MAY include more than 3 detachments.

As for rule of 3, I thought they might have made that an actual rule like they did battle brothers, but I trust Inquisitor Lord Kat on this one, and I am happy if it does in fact remain a recommendation.

I myself am not a competitive player, but they certainly don't ruin the game. I think they're a really important part of the community, just as I think the narrative, campaign, and stay at home players are important. I think it is the fact that our hobby contains both that makes the hobby so broad-based and appealing.

I wish GW would release a 40k arena supplement that gives competitive players the game they crave.

Personally, I find that the rule of three and the detachment limit prevent me from playing games that would occur naturally in the campaign setting I play in.

If a friend challenges me to a game using those recommendations, I'm not gonna turn it down- I can play outside my comfort zone every now and again. But there will be times where those limits would ruin a story arc that crosses multiple games at all 3 scales. The campaign involves the progression from small Kill Teams to Apocalypse scale armies, and all army growth is based on the outcomes of battles. Since growth is organic, it can occur in ways that do not comply with either of these rules/ suggestions.

And of course, many of our good, decent tourney players on Dakka would be the first to point out that they are totally cool with that sort of thing. Just remember that this being POSSIBLE is, to a certain extent, dependent upon the very intentional exclusion of the detachment limit from the ruleset, and the very explicit inclusion of scenarios like the Dark Eldar Raiding force rule.

No one wants to prevent anyone from playing with the detachment limits or rule of 3 when they choose to do so; we're just resisting the attitude that playing without it is somehow less valid.

PenitentJake wrote:
Time to weigh in on rule of three and detachment limits again.

On page 114 of the Drukari Codex there are rules for how many command points you get if you include 6+ patrol detachments.

Argument over. GW clearly printed rules that acknowledge the armies MAY include more than 3 detachments.

1) ‘Rule of 3’ scales with army size - if your army is sufficiently large you can have 6 detachments even if it is in play.

2) The Drukari FAQ explicitly addresses how Raiding Force interacts with ‘Rule of 3’ and it’s not in the Drukhari’s favour...

As an aside when the Drukhari next gets redone, if they continue to split the book in 3 they really need an exemption from rule of 3 for Pathol detachments (maybe as an anti-soup bonus) along with probably a CP boost for Raiding Force...

 BaconCatBug wrote:
p5freak is right, I highly doubt the majority of games use tournament rules. It might seem that way on Dakka but Dakka is a very... special subset of the 40k fandom.

So, in short, yes it's possible, but it's a bad idea, best to focus on a single god and mix in CSM with Daemons rather than trying to run all daemons.

When was the last time anyone saw a quadrillion IG Plasma Teams, or 12 Flyrant lists, or anything else that prompted the Ro3? Nothing has actually made the horde o' plasma or the flyrant swarm suddenly bad.

I highly doubt that most people are just ignoring GW's Matched Play Suggestions like the Rule of 3. I play in 4 different stores and all of them use GW's matched play suggestions for pick up games. They are, in fact, GW's Suggestions. The page even says that they're optional rules if they don't suit you. But everybody I know uses them, even those who've never been within 20 miles of a tournament in their life, because if you play with strangers at the games store, the standardization is convenient.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
p5freak is right, I highly doubt the majority of games use tournament rules. It might seem that way on Dakka but Dakka is a very... special subset of the 40k fandom.

So, in short, yes it's possible, but it's a bad idea, best to focus on a single god and mix in CSM with Daemons rather than trying to run all daemons.

When was the last time anyone saw a quadrillion IG Plasma Teams, or 12 Flyrant lists, or anything else that prompted the Ro3? Nothing has actually made the horde o' plasma or the flyrant swarm suddenly bad.

I highly doubt that most people are just ignoring GW's Matched Play Suggestions like the Rule of 3. I play in 4 different stores and all of them use GW's matched play suggestions for pick up games. They are, in fact, GW's Suggestions. The page even says that they're optional rules if they don't suit you. But everybody I know uses them, even those who've never been within 20 miles of a tournament in their life, because if you play with strangers at the games store, the standardization is convenient.

Very true- both suggestions are great for pickup games. And yeah, standardizing the environment at point of purchase is definitely good policy for the growth and health of the hobby.

Also, I'll check that FAQ. After GW raised the CP reward for battalions, raiding forces became impractical anyway; it's so much better to take a triple battalion than patrols that the point is almost moot. I only bothered mentioning it to prove that in it's conception, this game was designed to accommodate more than 3 detachments. Again, the CP value of battalions eliminates the need for a detachment limit, because nothing provides a point to cp ratio as good as a battalion, and 3 is about as many as you can afford. Better to fold your tanks into the excess heavy slots than build a spearhead.

It's a shame, because raiding forces were cool, and it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about with our campaign. Five Kill Teams becoming allied patrol detachments within a single army to unite against a large army is the type of thing that is likely to happen not just on the Commorragh side of the webway, but back in realspace where they will eventually be staging their realspace raids.

 p5freak wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I highly doubt that. You cannot speak for the majority of players. Fact is, there is no limit to the number of detachments in matched play. House rules that limit those don't change that.

I'm not speaking for anyone. I made multiple polls here on dakka confirming exactly this. Almost all anecdotal evidence confirms these numbers.

You can assume that more than 70% of the people reading dakka are using the detachment limit. Even more people are using the rule of three. Feel free to provide/collect data proving the opposite.

Right You made that statement, you have to prove it

I have data in form of polls, you have nothing but your opinion. Since you have nothing to add to that, I accept the concession of your point.

@"Dakka is not the majority": The poll was about how people play the majority of their games. Which means it covers all people on dakka and everyone they have been playing.
You can also safely assume that everyone participating in ITC and/or ETC is using it as well, which means that all bloggers, streamers and other influencers will use lists and provide advise based around the assumption that these rules are in place, so the people following them also use it.

On the other hand, evidence of the majority of people not using the rule amounts to anecdotal evidence from games played in non-public clubs or at people's homes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
When was the last time anyone saw a quadrillion IG Plasma Teams, or 12 Flyrant lists, or anything else that prompted the Ro3? Nothing has actually made the horde o' plasma or the flyrant swarm suddenly bad.

I highly doubt that most people are just ignoring GW's Matched Play Suggestions like the Rule of 3. I play in 4 different stores and all of them use GW's matched play suggestions for pick up games. They are, in fact, GW's Suggestions. The page even says that they're optional rules if they don't suit you. But everybody I know uses them, even those who've never been within 20 miles of a tournament in their life, because if you play with strangers at the games store, the standardization is convenient.

Ironically, the one place around here that doesn't use those rules is a GW store (the three other GW stores and two FLGS do enforce it), and it has been rewarded with a dying tournament scene. The number of people being ok with facing 8 PBCs or 6 TS daemon princes regularly has shrunk from more than 25 to 3-4.

Rumor has it that the store manager has been fired though (not just for this), maybe things change now.

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I highly doubt that. You cannot speak for the majority of players. Fact is, there is no limit to the number of detachments in matched play. House rules that limit those don't change that.

I'm not speaking for anyone. I made multiple polls here on dakka confirming exactly this. Almost all anecdotal evidence confirms these numbers.

You can assume that more than 70% of the people reading dakka are using the detachment limit. Even more people are using the rule of three. Feel free to provide/collect data proving the opposite.

Right You made that statement, you have to prove it

I have data in form of polls, you have nothing but your opinion. Since you have nothing to add to that, I accept the concession of your point.

@"Dakka is not the majority": The poll was about how people play the majority of their games. Which means it covers all people on dakka and everyone they have been playing.
You can also safely assume that everyone participating in ITC and/or ETC is using it as well, which means that all bloggers, streamers and other influencers will use lists and provide advise based around the assumption that these rules are in place, so the people following them also use it.

It's still not the majority. Also link to polls please.

 Sim-Life wrote:
It's still not the majority. Also link to polls please.

Most recent previous one: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/764812.page
I also started new one to get more up to date data: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788381.page

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
It's still not the majority. Also link to polls please.

Most recent previous one: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/764812.page
I also started new one to get more up to date data: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788381.page

Thanks. So 1449 people participated in your poll. The 40k subreddit has 250000 and faction specific facebook groups tend to average 6-10k members. Even if you take into account the people they play with any polls here is still a very small part of the community.

More like ~150 people, dakka's poll system is busted.

I'm also part of multiple 40k sub-reddits and facebook groups, and there is no evidence of the organized play rules being ignored, quite the opposite when you look at army lists posted.

Way to derail a thread and make a good impression on a new member. Good job, Dakka!

Let's get back to topic, shall we?

@GenChicken

Does it have to be all 4 gods? Does it have to be Daemons only or would you consider Chaos Space Marines with Daemon summons?