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bfdhud wrote:
What would they have had to announce to make you happy?

Serious question.

more actual information thats tangible.

if im not a fan of the armies on offer and everything about what they added (and im not)- then the only thing of interest is the general changes of the new edition.

lets say im interested in starting a tempestus army- does the tank thing apply to vehicles in general? how exactly does the flyer thing work? what about cover and strategic reserves, exactly HOW are command points changing? what exactly qualifies as a horde?

all im being told is to wait until i can get hard information, which may result in whatever im building not working at all like i was expecting, while the armies on offer are getting models i either don't like or could care less about (yee, primaris chainswords, woo.)

thats how id be happier. instead i just have to wait and put things to the side-again- to see if they are worth doing when the information comes.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Theory: blast weapons will let damage roll over to other models like mortal wounds.

They called out the frag missile as an example, I think it's more likely they'll get an extra D6 if the target unit is over 10 models. Or just do a flat 6/max shots.

I got the impression that a bast weapon targeting hordes would get the max shots; d6 becomes 6, d3 becomes 3, etc. Pretty big improvement, almost 50% increase to the attacks average!

My question is what defines a "horde". 10 models? 20 models? More than that? Can you get around this new rule with MSU? Does the size of the models themselves matter, or will 20 rubrics get hit as hard by blasts as 20 orks? Not making a judgement call on which answer to any of these questions is the "right" one but there's a lot of stuff we have no idea on here.

Perhaps it will be a keyword tag. Blast weapons get max shots against <horde> units.

Ork Boyz: <ork>, <infantry>, <horde>.

Like that.

Would definitely solve the problem of separating out "hordes" and elite infantry that fight in big groups. I like how this solution divorces the rule from model count too, makes it hit some of the weirder horde models like scarabs. Of course there's nothing but speculation on what they'll actually do for now.

I'd be pretty mad if a squad of 30 Plaguebearers that have been reduced to 8 models or so take more shots from a Battle Cannon than a 10-man MEQ squad.

Units of more than 10 or more models gain the <horde> keyword and lose it if reduced below 10.

Now even fat squads of primaris get effected. And elite units in larger squads will only get alpha striked if done this way.

Did they actually point to a release date? August perhaps?

So are those new Honour Guard marines with the shields, or something else?

 TBD wrote:
Did they actually point to a release date? August perhaps?

We've got another 3 PA books to come, so even if they dropped one now and did one per month that'd be cutting it close. October/November is my guess, just in time for holiday shopping.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I'm probably in a minority regarding this, but I hope that units are bought in 5/10s. So if you play MSU of a 5 man squad unit and want to upgrade it you only have the option of doing 5, 10, 15 or whatever the max is. Basically take cue from AoS in this regard.

Now, some people might say: "What if I can't get my army to 2000 points with that type of point scheme?" The answer is simple, the points leftover would be weapon upgrades. AoS offers Endless Spells or an Extra Command Point to fill in the last few points.

This way, if they tie horde to the number of models, they can avoid people taking units just under horde size. Because if Horde is at 20 for Ork Boyz then a player will just have 19 units to avoid the Horde rule. It just means people will game around the rule and you'll see ton of Horde-1 units.

This would be a moot point if units are getting horde typeword of course.

Orks would lose attack though. Nobody takes 20 strong units anyway because going sub-20 to overwatch basically neuters unit.

Btw one thing i don't like look of. With cp staying mono gets incentive. Nice. Except now marines and to degree sisters have their own mono bonus. Duh. So marines get extra bonus if they take bonus.

 TBD wrote:
Did they actually point to a release date? August perhaps?

New editions have been historically released in July or so, but with COVID I guess they don't want to put down a hard date in case things go south again. August to October would probably all be viable dates at this point.

Btw one thing i don't like look of. With cp staying mono gets incentive. Nice. Except now marines and to degree sisters have their own mono bonus. Duh. So marines get extra bonus if they take bonus.

It would be a moot point if point adjustments reflect the new reality. Sadly just something we'll have to wait and see.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I'm probably in a minority regarding this, but I hope that units are bought in 5/10s. So if you play MSU of a 5 man squad unit and want to upgrade it you only have the option of doing 5, 10, 15 or whatever the max is. Basically take cue from AoS in this regard.

Now, some people might say: "What if I can't get my army to 2000 points with that type of point scheme?" The answer is simple, the points leftover would be weapon upgrades. AoS offers Endless Spells or an Extra Command Point to fill in the last few points.

This way, if they tie horde to the number of models, they can avoid people taking units just under horde size. Because if Horde is at 20 for Ork Boyz then a player will just have 19 units to avoid the Horde rule. It just means people will game around the rule and you'll see ton of Horde-1 units.

This would be a moot point if units are getting horde typeword of course.

Won’t happen. Look at certain cult marine units that are in their god’s favoured number, which GW sell as a box as such.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Did he say "terrain rules"?

Believe it when I see it...

Don't be tricked. It's a late April's fool joke.

IanVanCheese wrote:

 TBD wrote:
Did they actually point to a release date? August perhaps?

We've got another 3 PA books to come, so even if they dropped one now and did one per month that'd be cutting it close. October/November is my guess, just in time for holiday shopping.

They probably will hurry up releases a bit to get backlog off. We are 2 months slow. Assuming original plan was july(pariah being june) i say late july at earliest or august with them cramming 2 month reieases in 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I'm probably in a minority regarding this, but I hope that units are bought in 5/10s. So if you play MSU of a 5 man squad unit and want to upgrade it you only have the option of doing 5, 10, 15 or whatever the max is. Basically take cue from AoS in this regard.

Now, some people might say: "What if I can't get my army to 2000 points with that type of point scheme?" The answer is simple, the points leftover would be weapon upgrades. AoS offers Endless Spells or an Extra Command Point to fill in the last few points.

This way, if they tie horde to the number of models, they can avoid people taking units just under horde size. Because if Horde is at 20 for Ork Boyz then a player will just have 19 units to avoid the Horde rule. It just means people will game around the rule and you'll see ton of Horde-1 units.

This would be a moot point if units are getting horde typeword of course.

Won’t happen. Look at certain cult marine units that are in their god’s favoured number, which GW sell as a box as such.

Guess his more accurate wish was: sell in sizes boxes come, maybe half for some. Plague marines would be 7/14/21, necron warriors 12/24 etc. So no 5 strong plague marine units, no 19 ork boyz etc

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am not liking the idea that LOS ignoring Imperial Guard Artillery that can now fire whilst still in hand to hand combat has got better at units of 10 or more as well....

Well there's possibility of price up. Based on the faq i have suspicion they will do ca style points revamp on release.

It also depends on if that artillery gets defined as a tank as they clearly state tanks not vehicals in the preview.
All tanks are vehicals not all vehicals are tanks.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Did he say "terrain rules"?

Believe it when I see it...

Don't be tricked. It's a late April's fool joke.

As long as they aren't random charts...

 Crimson wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Having a black Space Marine and a female Naval officer also seems to be a bit of political correctness/diversity but seems a bit forced in your face to me.

Real world must seem 'forced and in your face' to you as well.

Can't wait for the new Primaris Lieutenant models Safespace and Snowflake.

Drop the political / social justice crap. It's off topic, inflammatory, and not allowed.

I'd expect 'horde' to be something like 15 or more for unit sizes.

So, gotta say I'm digging this box, the assault intercessors likely won't be THAT great but I'm gonna do mine up as primaris blood claws.

I’d assume the whole horde aspect works like it does in AoS.
Damage increase vs 10 and 20 models.

Giving the horde key word to units just seems pointless and stupid as unit sizes are variable.
No unit is really a horde at its base size.

However, this could open the doors for a horde sized unit (20+) to gain benefits like +1 to hit in combat etc.
So while blasts some cause them more hassle, they could also gain from it.


As a side note, I’m assuming we are either getting new scarabs or they are now gone.
Not seen any real mention of those.
With the warrior kit changing all we have seen is the repair scarabs on the models.

Ice_can wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I am not liking the idea that LOS ignoring Imperial Guard Artillery that can now fire whilst still in hand to hand combat has got better at units of 10 or more as well....

Well there's possibility of price up. Based on the faq i have suspicion they will do ca style points revamp on release.

It also depends on if that artillery gets defined as a tank as they clearly state tanks not vehicals in the preview.
All tanks are vehicals not all vehicals are tanks.

Good point. Anyway still tons to learn before we can tell who are winners and losers. Knowing whether or not there's new points(sort of indexes except just points) alone will be big to figuring out impact for game balance

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
This isn’t a Primaris Chaplain Cassius is it?

Cassius has a flamer, this one has a absolvor pistol, it's a normal primaris chaplain imo.

There won't be any SM special character in there anyway, as this boxset is made so that it can be used by the various SM factions.

Jackal90 wrote:


As a side note, I’m assuming we are either getting new scarabs or they are now gone.
Not seen any real mention of those.
With the warrior kit changing all we have seen is the repair scarabs on the models.

Check marine start set pic. New scarabs visible

Jackal90 wrote:
I’d assume the whole horde aspect works like it does in AoS.
Damage increase vs 10 and 20 models.

Giving the horde key word to units just seems pointless and stupid as unit sizes are variable.
No unit is really a horde at its base size.

However, this could open the doors for a horde sized unit (20+) to gain benefits like +1 to hit in combat etc.
So while blasts some cause them more hassle, they could also gain from it.

Guard Infantry Squads are locked at 10 models...unless you take a Heavy Weapons Team, which drops two models for 1 that has 2W.

Likely horde is more than 10 at lowest so no horde at base size there. Conscript would be horde

Yeah, frankly I'm most concerned that anti-horde rules don't whiff on making sure they kill guardsmen. Doing it based on unit size would make IG effectively immune to blast rules, and that's completely nonsensical.

BrianDavion wrote:
So, gotta say I'm digging this box, the assault intercessors likely won't be THAT great but I'm gonna do mine up as primaris blood claws.

If I’m thinking right, they get 5 attacks each on the charge, four at other times. That’s.....an awful lot of attacks for a relatively small unit?

Curious how they rewrite the rules this time. Hmm, less than ten pages is a given.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, frankly I'm most concerned that anti-horde rules don't whiff on making sure they kill guardsmen. Doing it based on unit size would make IG effectively immune to blast rules, and that's completely nonsensical.

Nothing else logical available. Sure can't just put unit keyword without going totally silly route. Now is it 10+, 11+ or 20+ etc.is another thing

I have this feeling that their chainswords will have ap-1....

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, frankly I'm most concerned that anti-horde rules don't whiff on making sure they kill guardsmen. Doing it based on unit size would make IG effectively immune to blast rules, and that's completely nonsensical.

Considering non-Blob Squadded Guardsmen have never really been the problem that Conscripts have been? I do care.

Because that's what we're talking about here. The problems that 'Blast' would have to address aren't the 10 model Guard Squads--those die easy enough to a stiff breeze. It's the Combined Squads backed up with morale negating effects, the Grot Mobs, etc.

tneva82 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, frankly I'm most concerned that anti-horde rules don't whiff on making sure they kill guardsmen. Doing it based on unit size would make IG effectively immune to blast rules, and that's completely nonsensical.

Nothing else logical available. Sure can't just put unit keyword without going totally silly route. Now is it 10+, 11+ or 20+ etc.is another thing

I'm expecting either a fixed unit size like this, or possibly something tied to the maximum number of attacks for the blast weapon.

For example, if the unit size exceeds the maximum number of attacks the weapon can roll, the weapon automatically makes the maximum number of attacks.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
So, gotta say I'm digging this box, the assault intercessors likely won't be THAT great but I'm gonna do mine up as primaris blood claws.

If I’m thinking right, they get 5 attacks each on the charge, four at other times. That’s.....an awful lot of attacks for a relatively small unit?

Probably just 4 on the charge (5 for the sarge)

2 base (like all normal primaris)
+1 for the chainsword
+1 for the charge/being charged/heroic intervention.

Honestly, without jump packs or other wacky options, I don’t see a real good reason to field them. Maybe if they are troops. But even so, why not take regular intercessors with autobolt rifres? You miss out on a few chainsword attacks, but get a lot more shooting than a few heavy bolt pistols.

I don’t see these guys impacting the game more than reivers.

(But still I want a squad)