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 Latro_ wrote:
https://www.twitch.tv/warhammer
stream is live - topic cmd pts

first morcel: only core detachments - patrol, bat, brig give you a refund on the CP to buy it and only if WL is in it.

Anything else costs CP, so you take abby and termies in a vanguard, its ye entire army it still costs CP for that detachemtn

----

mortal wounds (based on number of models you flee from) on people falling back from combat core strat

---

some missions give you CP in the command phase

That is literally all i can tell thats new info in the whole talk

Drukari a d Knights additional CP for detachment still live on.
Hopefully they have the good sence to tie thise to your warlord having to be in said detachment otherwise it's going to be super soup for another edition because of some idea the studio has.

Yeah so far it sounds like soup is still very much the way to play as he did let slip adding A knight only costs 1-2 CP

Please stop breaking codex's so you can keep trying to self mishmash armies

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

And here i thought' they'd realize they fethed up with marines.,..

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

Haven't you learned by now? People don't come here to talk excitedly about a fun new product! They come to gak all over it before we've had more than a morsel of information!

The pts are not going to be the same. Forgot to say there was mention of every weapon getting adjusted too. They specifically hinted at the fact blast weapons are gonna get him with a bigger pts bump than anything else to account for their new rules.

edit: actully i think that was mentioned in yesterdays stream

It's almost like the internet's full of people determined to be angry/miserable!

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

And here i thought' they'd realize they fethed up with marines.,..

I'm not declaring that All Is Lost and the meta will 100% still be marine-dominated, but I am getting heavy flashbacks to 8th, when they steadily revealed the new blasts, the new fall back rules, the new morale system, Overwatch rules, and the part of the community that liked melee was asking

"uh, hey GW, how does melee work? How do you melee? GW?"

and their only answer was "Don't worry about it, melee will be great, 8th will be the best edition for melee ever, pinky swear!"

"So did you fix the issues like random charge rolls then? Is that how melee is fixed?"

"Youll have to read the full rules to find out!!!! we can't spoil everything for you. Now, let's talk about how flamers autohit on overwatch scorin their full effectiveness...and how units can interrupt to fight back..and how you can shoot in melee with pistols but not on the turn you charge..."

 Latro_ wrote:
The pts are not going to be the same. Forgot to say there was mention of every weapon getting adjusted too. They specifically hinted at the fact blast weapons are gonna get him with a bigger pts bump than anything else to account for their new rules.

edit: actully i think that was mentioned in yesterdays stream

I really hope not as some of them are rediculously over costed in points currently.
I hoep they ahve taken into acount all the rules that effect the wepaons not just done what they did last time and dropped the ball massively.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

What about the terms "Apparently" "What we know" and the like leads you to conclude that a "definite statement" is being made?

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
It's almost like the internet's full of people determined to be angry/miserable!

It's not like dakka to be overwhelming negative about a game that many people enjoy is it?

the_scotsman wrote:


I'm not declaring that All Is Lost and the meta will 100% still be marine-dominated, but I am getting heavy flashbacks to 8th, when they steadily revealed the new blasts, the new fall back rules, the new morale system, Overwatch rules, and the part of the community that liked melee was asking

"uh, hey GW, how does melee work? How do you melee? GW?"

and their only answer was "Don't worry about it, melee will be great, 8th will be the best edition for melee ever, pinky swear!"

"So did you fix the issues like random charge rolls then? Is that how melee is fixed?"

"Youll have to read the full rules to find out!!!! we can't spoil everything for you. Now, let's talk about how flamers autohit on overwatch scorin their full effectiveness...and how units can interrupt to fight back..and how you can shoot in melee with pistols but not on the turn you charge..."

Ahh so that's were my Déja-vu feeling was coming from.
I hope it's not the case but still.
that is eeeeerrily similar.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

And complaining about a 2ppm shift vs a 4ppm one only highlights how people will bitch about anything. Of course the percentage is going to look more out of wack when you look at single digits moving vs double digits going up in points.

Right now 15 Intercessors (3 units with 5 models each) is 240 points. In 9th that starts at 300 points. That's a loss of 60 points. 3x10 cultists is currently 120 points. In 9th that's going up to 180 which also loses 60 points. Percentage wise it looks worse for the cultists, but for the armies as a whole 60 points of Primaris is a bigger chunk out of an army in terms of moving and killing than 60 points of cultists would be.

 small_gods wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
It's almost like the internet's full of people determined to be angry/miserable!

It's not like dakka to be overwhelming negative about a game that many people enjoy is it?

It's kind of ironic to complain about the complaining.

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

What about the terms "Apparently" "What we know" and the like leads you to conclude that a "definite statement" is being made?

Because the "apparently" is based on such a small handful of datapoints you might as well use it to draw a cat rather than any real conclusions on how the game will work.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

What about the terms "Apparently" "What we know" and the like leads you to conclude that a "definite statement" is being made?

Because the "apparently" is based on such a small handful of datapoints you might as well use it to draw a cat rather than any real conclusions on how the game will work.

True. My statements about how things are looking at this point and the statements that the designers are making is based on

A) my experience with the rules previews that they chose to highlight when they previewed 8th

B) What the game designer just said, live on stream, about how the armies of playtesters have evolved throughout the tests: By getting more elite

Neither of these things are definitive statements. They are speculative worries. You are the one calling them definitive claims.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

And complaining about a 2ppm shift vs a 4ppm one only highlights how people will bitch about anything. Of course the percentage is going to look more out of wack when you look at single digits moving vs double digits going up in points.

Right now 15 Intercessors (3 units with 5 models each) is 240 points. In 9th that starts at 300 points. That's a loss of 60 points. 3x10 cultists is currently 120 points. In 9th that's going up to 180 which also loses 60 points. Percentage wise it looks worse for the cultists, but for the armies as a whole 60 points of Primaris is a bigger chunk out of an army in terms of moving and killing than 60 points of cultists would be.

60 pts in an army with intercessors is worth more than 60 pts in an army with cultists because in the army with intercessors you could have spent those points on more intercessors whereas in the army with cultists you'd just have bought more lousy cultists. Sounds about right. Hopefully they apply this logic across the board. For balance.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

And complaining about a 2ppm shift vs a 4ppm one only highlights how people will bitch about anything. Of course the percentage is going to look more out of wack when you look at single digits moving vs double digits going up in points.

Right now 15 Intercessors (3 units with 5 models each) is 240 points. In 9th that starts at 300 points. That's a loss of 60 points. 3x10 cultists is currently 120 points. In 9th that's going up to 180 which also loses 60 points. Percentage wise it looks worse for the cultists, but for the armies as a whole 60 points of Primaris is a bigger chunk out of an army in terms of moving and killing than 60 points of cultists would be.

60 pts in an army with intercessors is worth more than 60 pts in an army with cultists because in the army with intercessors you could have spent those points on more intercessors whereas in the army with cultists you'd just have bought more lousy cultists. Sounds about right. Hopefully they apply this logic across the board. For balance.

Since, when looking at units as a whole, the points lost match, it makes me wonder if they just bumped up every unit ~20 points and then worked out the ppm after that.

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Something about this argument sounds familiar.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Something about this argument sounds familiar.

It's only the same arguement that's been made about a dozen times in this thread alone with no real proof, just a lot of assumptions without enough to back them up.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

And complaining about a 2ppm shift vs a 4ppm one only highlights how people will bitch about anything. Of course the percentage is going to look more out of wack when you look at single digits moving vs double digits going up in points.

Right now 15 Intercessors (3 units with 5 models each) is 240 points. In 9th that starts at 300 points. That's a loss of 60 points. 3x10 cultists is currently 120 points. In 9th that's going up to 180 which also loses 60 points. Percentage wise it looks worse for the cultists, but for the armies as a whole 60 points of Primaris is a bigger chunk out of an army in terms of moving and killing than 60 points of cultists would be.

That’s not how math works, 60 points are 60 points, more importantly the 300 points of intercessors will murder with no problem the 300 points of cultists.

Taking Command of Your Points on Warhammer Community.

New article is up:

But there’s more! Not only do you start the battle with more Command points, but in each of your Command phases – the new opening phase of your turn – you will receive one additional Command point.

And Cut Them Down looks like it works best for Hordes.

To be fair the cultists have a stratagem that can make them reappear which effectively multiplies their total worth in the new CP system.

The question is what the intercessor bolters will cost.

Kaneda88 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, apparently the prediction is going to be that we're going to see a lot of elite armies in the new edition.

Not like now, obviously, elites have been so hamstrung the last six months. Iron Hands primaris+Levi Dread lists were capped out at a pathetic, wimpy 70% winrate, after all.

Yes, because clearly having the entire game see massive shifts means an old edition's meta is still valid as a datapoint for how the future will work.

I mean, when we know going in that the codexes are all going to be the same, and every rule previewed benefits the currently dominant faction extremely heavily (Capped modifiers: helps marines, intercessors getting 15% increase vs another unit getting 50% increase: Helps marines, fixed CP generation regardless of army composition: helps marines, monofaction armies being heavily favored: Helps marines, ITC style secondaries in missions: Helps marines)

Points are changing, terrain is changing, missions are changing, and morale is changing. There are too many shifting datapoints to make definite statements about anything.

And complaining about a 2ppm shift vs a 4ppm one only highlights how people will bitch about anything. Of course the percentage is going to look more out of wack when you look at single digits moving vs double digits going up in points.

Right now 15 Intercessors (3 units with 5 models each) is 240 points. In 9th that starts at 300 points. That's a loss of 60 points. 3x10 cultists is currently 120 points. In 9th that's going up to 180 which also loses 60 points. Percentage wise it looks worse for the cultists, but for the armies as a whole 60 points of Primaris is a bigger chunk out of an army in terms of moving and killing than 60 points of cultists would be.

That’s not how math works, 60 points are 60 points, more importantly the 300 points of intercessors will murder with no problem the 300 points of cultists.

The point was the 60 points for marines is a larger opportunity cost than it is for the cultists. It also shows that while the individual point cost is wildly different, the units both took the same points hike.

Well so you have the same CP playing 1500 than 2000. TBH I don't find that a proble, but 1500 with 9CP also work.

Or are we gonna start seeging 2001 point tournaments like in old fantasy with the x999 tournaments?

And Cut Them Down looks like it works best for Hordes.

I think that's the intention. With the new blast rules there must be some rebalancing of melee horde.

Edit: Ninja'd

Post removed

 Eldarsif wrote:

And Cut Them Down looks like it works best for Hordes.

I think that's the intention. With the new blast rules there must be some rebalancing of melee horde.

Which is also good because it's at least one thing people can't say buffs Intercessors.