Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Heavy cover explicitly says it's ignored by charging units though?

That means the Boyz who charge in won't get the save, but the unit hunkered down will, not that if I charge your unit it loses Heavy cover

Wrong. Read it again

You add 1 to the saving throw unless the attacking model charged

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Heavy cover explicitly says it's ignored by charging units though?

That means the Boyz who charge in won't get the save bonus, but the unit hunkered down will, not that if I charge your unit it loses Heavy cover

It's worded to work the other way around, actually.

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

The shooty boys would not get the bonus, since the models making the attack charged that turn. It actually benefits the charging unit more than the charged, since the charging unit will gain +1 save while the defending unit will not.

 Sasori wrote:
I have to admit, I'm really not seeing where the melee boost is supposed to be coming in yet. The smaller table size will help this, but it remains to be seen how much.

Are we going to pretend that being unable to shoot through a terrain feature that has the Obscured trait isn't a boost?

 Platuan4th wrote:
It's worded to work the other way around, actually.

Huh, you're right, it's the model MAKING the attack, not taking the attack. Weird.

That's dumb. But... it does buff melee units, which isn't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oh joy. My daemons can continue to gain no benefit from cover.

You do against AP0 weapons? You know you can choose to use their normal save, right?

Also is it just me or does Heavy Cover not give a bonus against shooting?

Light and heavy cover is not either/or. A terrain piece can provide both.

Yeah-the way it's worded (god knows what the intent is) is that you get +1 to your saves in melee from Heavy Cover, but if you're being attacked by a charging unit, it's denied.

So if my Plaguebearers charge your Marines in Heavy Cover, you only get a 3+, not a 2+.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Heavy cover explicitly says it's ignored by charging units though?

That means the Boyz who charge in won't get the save bonus, but the unit hunkered down will, not that if I charge your unit it loses Heavy cover

It's worded to work the other way around, actually.

Yeah it just means no one will get a save improvement that turn

So ... heavy cover is actually a negative. You DON'T want to be on heavy cover, because it would benefit wichever charges you (They would benefit from the heavy cover) but not you?

 Galas wrote:
So ... heavy cover is actually a negative. You DON'T want to be on heavy cover, because it would benefit wichever charges you (They would benefit from the heavy cover) but not you?

It's a buff to melee armies!

removing my post as you've edited yours now

Yes, you're right, I misread making as taking for whatever reason.

So Heavy Cover actually benefits the opponent since the charging unit will benefit from Heavy Cover and the charged unit wont.

While dumb, it buffs melee armies!

Unless it's a GW mistake as usual

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Obscuring changes basically nothing for tournament players who are used to playing on tables with 4+ large L-shape ruins often tall enough to hide a Knight. Now some GW chapel plays as ”windows closed” which was a common tournament rule already.

Infantry and especially hordes are still screwed.

And 5G causes corona virus.

Oh sorry I thought we were spouting off theories based on an abject lack of information.

So, are we or are we not allowed to voice our displeasure at the design direction? Because certainly it looks like some people can’t shut up about how hyped they are, despite likewise really not having any clue if 9th is good or not.

Some of the changes that I know of are good, some are terrible. Obscuring doesn’t change anything in competitive play. Can you handle this or do you need to white knight about the tone of my voice?

You can Chicken Little all you want so long as you're fine with others pointing out the sky isn't actually falling.

No it actually seems as though you have a problem with other peoples opinion. The sky can be falling in his opinion while it's the greatest news ever in yours. It isn't either or despite your attempts to make it that way through hyperbole.

If you don't want other opinions that oppose your own I have great advice for you. You can stop using a public forum lol.

BTW I'd stop moralizing and making personal attacks, when apparently your ducking an obligation you have to some meeting in order to post on the internet.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I have to admit, I'm really not seeing where the melee boost is supposed to be coming in yet. The smaller table size will help this, but it remains to be seen how much.

Are we going to pretend that being unable to shoot through a terrain feature that has the Obscured trait isn't a boost?

Depends if you played ITC rules or not. As Therion already pointed out, this has pretty much already been the case so far.

 Sasori wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I have to admit, I'm really not seeing where the melee boost is supposed to be coming in yet. The smaller table size will help this, but it remains to be seen how much.

Are we going to pretend that being unable to shoot through a terrain feature that has the Obscured trait isn't a boost?

Depends if you played ITC rules or not. As Therion already pointed out, this has pretty much already been the case so far.

But now it's an actual rule, not a house rule.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol so the terrain rules dont help CC they nerf it more. Now your shooty boys hug heavy cover and get a nice +1 save against my orks charging in.

ofc i dont get this.

clap clap clap

Heavy cover explicitly says it's ignored by charging units though?

Yeah, honestly if you charge a unit into heavy cover, that's an advantage to the unit making the charge, not the unit defending.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Hordes are definitely fethed considering that they are keeping the +1 to saving throws

To be fair a substantial change happened it’s based on per model NO longer requiring the entire unit to be on or wholly within.

So units that get charged have no bonus. Then the unit attacks back, and the unit that charged them gets the bonus?

And then next round (assuming the unit that got charged hasn't just waltzed away leaving the enemy charging unit to be annihilated by ubiquitous over-powered mid-power multi-shot mid-damage weapons), they both gain the benefits of Heavy Cover as neither charged?

Right?

 Galas wrote:
So ... heavy cover is actually a negative. You DON'T want to be on heavy cover, because it would benefit wichever charges you (They would benefit from the heavy cover) but not you?

I wouldn't say that, seems to be a kind of no winners situation. Neither the charging unit or the unit being charged benefit in the first round of combat.

Could definitely be argued it's a boost if the charged unit sticks around another turn, as the charging unit probably inflicted more damage AND now benefits from cover.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I have to admit, I'm really not seeing where the melee boost is supposed to be coming in yet. The smaller table size will help this, but it remains to be seen how much.

Are we going to pretend that being unable to shoot through a terrain feature that has the Obscured trait isn't a boost?

Depends if you played ITC rules or not. As Therion already pointed out, this has pretty much already been the case so far.

But now it's an actual rule, not a house rule.

That's not the point though. The point was Kan is trying to say, well, this is a huge boost. I pointed out that people that have already been playing with this terrain ruleset all edition already know it's not that huge of a boost.

So I can shoot Magnus the Red, but he can't shoot me back because Obscuring.

And how does cover give you a bonus in close combat? Like the Khorne Berzerker is chasing you around and around the crate or something? Or maybe you start using random bits of scenery to block incoming attacks, Jackie Chan style?

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding horde rules I do expect that the bravery rule from AoS will show up. There the unit gains +1 bravery(leadership) for every 10 models in the unit at the time of test.

But it only impacts large units lol. I'd rather be a marine and have LD8-9 with a reroll on 5-10 models then LD6, no reroll and be in a unit of 30. They had better of reworked the system from the bottom up.

I wonder what defensible will mean...

That could possibly be a bonus save to units being charged or better overwatch.
Scalable I assume means being able to go up floors
Breachable I would assume means walls etc can be moved through
Exposed position I have no idea as is it more exposed than being in the middle of a street?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So units that get charged have no bonus. Then the unit attacks back, and the unit that charged them gets the bonus?

And then next round (assuming the unit that got charged hasn't just waltzed away leaving the enemy charging unit to be annihilated by ubiquitous over-powered mid-power multi-shot mid-damage weapons), they both gain the benefits of Heavy Cover as neither charged?

Right?

Correct.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I can shoot Magnus the Red, but he can't shoot me back because Obscuring.

Correct. Smaller things can hide from bigger things. I actually don't see a problem with this. You can "ambush" units natively within the rules without the need for an "ambush" special rule.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
And how does cover give you a bonus in close combat? Like the Khorne Berzerker is chasing you around and around the crate or something? Or maybe you start using random bits of scenery to block incoming attacks, Jackie Chan style?

Remember when being in cover made you less vulnerable to charges? And then everyone got Frag Grenades that basically negated that. This is here to show that fighting HTH in heavy cover is difficult.

Really though this should have been the "dense cover", but whatever...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding horde rules I do expect that the bravery rule from AoS will show up. There the unit gains +1 bravery(leadership) for every 10 models in the unit at the time of test.

But it only impacts large units lol. I'd rather be a marine and have LD8-9 with a reroll on 5-10 models then LD6, no reroll and be in a unit of 30. They had better of reworked the system from the bottom up.

Not saying it would be the exactly same system, but that it could give us a hint what we could see.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding horde rules I do expect that the bravery rule from AoS will show up. There the unit gains +1 bravery(leadership) for every 10 models in the unit at the time of test.

But it only impacts large units lol. I'd rather be a marine and have LD8-9 with a reroll on 5-10 models then LD6, no reroll and be in a unit of 30. They had better of reworked the system from the bottom up.

I'm really hoping we see the whole "buying more models for this unit is less points than another equivalent sized unit" thing people have been talking about.

It was one of my favorite parts of 30k and I think could help mitigate some of the horde concerns if it's more efficient to run big hordes. Especially since Obscured should help make things less targetable

So, so far, our keywords are:

Light Cover - +1 sv vs shooting
Heavy Cover - +1sv vs non-charging melee
Obscuring - Blocks LOS if 5" or taller and not for Flyers or 18W+

Fairly obvious:

Unstable - Probably the dangerous terrain rule mentioned on stream
Scalable - Pretty clearly means you can climb it. It would be super cool IMO if climbing was given some better clearer rules than the current "you can just move up it" system.
Exposed Position - Probably a codification of the recent rule where if you're on top of a thing with no protection you don't get cover from it, given it's on an Armored Container
Breachable - I would guess that Breachable is a codification of the "infantry swarms and beasts can go through this" rule

Non-obvious:

"Dense Cover" - This was described on-stream as "Terrain where the terrain itself is blocking the bullets vs terrain that just makes it harder to see you like a forest which would be light cover." TBH I would LOVE to see the return of the 4+ cover save thru this rule, that would help out light infantry a ton.

"Defensible" - no clue.Could be Apoc-style ruin embarkation. Could be some kind of bonus vs chargers or something. Could be units inside it can shoot out of it?

They also mentioned terrain that slows down movement on stream, so I would expect some kind of "Impeding" keyword for area terrain.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I can shoot Magnus the Red, but he can't shoot me back because Obscuring.

Correct. Smaller things can hide from bigger things. I actually don't see a problem with this. You can "ambush" units natively within the rules without the need for an "ambush" special rule.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
And how does cover give you a bonus in close combat? Like the Khorne Berzerker is chasing you around and around the crate or something? Or maybe you start using random bits of scenery to block incoming attacks, Jackie Chan style?

Remember when being in cover made you less vulnerable to charges? And then everyone got Frag Grenades that basically negated that. This is here to show that fighting HTH in heavy cover is difficult.

Really though this should have been the "dense cover", but whatever...

Only applies to terrain pieces that weigh over a certain amount. Marketing 101

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Hordes are definitely fethed considering that they are keeping the +1 to saving throws

Yup, cover will continue to benefit power armour more than geq or weaker saves. Hordes are going to have it bad.

.

7 editions of people complaining cover saves unfairly benefited low armor save units. 7 editions of people saying a marine in cover should be harder to kill than a guardsmen in cover.

...now we are here.

lol