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These rules seem very well thought out, much more immersive than movement blocking flyers (which lasted through all three editions if I recall correctly).
Also aircraft dying because they could not be placed on the board was very satisfying (with GSC it was EZ to pull off) but total nonsense (why would they crash ??)

But I guess the moaning and graning may commence anyway...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/taking-flightgw-homepage-post-1/

Article is up already.

 EnTyme wrote:

All they really have to do is errata the phrase "can be targeted" to "can be targeted as normal." It would refer the player back to normal targeting rules (i.e. TLOS).

They shouldn't have to because you're applying the targeting rules first and thus if the model can't be seen in the first place, you don't have to apply the rules for obscured.

So today's Twitch video, apart from a clarification that true line of sight is still at the basis of the game, no significant news.

Aircraft will be an additional keyword above fly keyword. Something with aircraft keyword will be treated slightly differently from fly.
Ability to leave and re-enter battlefield has been confirmed, but no details given.
Less gamey interactions, like previously : a flyer will not crash if the opponent deprives it from place to put its base.
Other units will be able to go through its base.
There will be a (short) list of units counting as aircraft in the rulebook.
You will always be capable of getting a line of sight to an aircraft through obscuring terrain.
Some flyers will not count as aircraft : Heldrakes and Harpies.

That's it.

Ice_can wrote:
You realise that's a Warlord Titan Not a Knight right? Like the thing is like 4ft tall and still can shoot what it can clealry see.

I thought warlords had the big cathedral thingy on their backs.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yep. And who knows, maybe three turns from now a model you can't even see in the photo could get him too.

I mean, in the grim-dark world of the 41st millenium, nobody is ever really safe!!! Am I right or am I right, guys???

You make a good point: the bloodletter is actually safe, because he cannot be killed by the knight titan big robot thingy. Just sent back into the warp!
He might have been in trouble if he was facing the knights of titan though!

tneva82 wrote:
You assume movement phase is not done already. Warlord titan isn't shooting that letter nor is he charging(too far)

I assume so because if the movement phase wasn't done already, why would the knight player have gone here when it meant he cannot shoot at the only model on the board?

(For real though I was trying to make a joke and everyone took it seriously)

NVM

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/12/taking-flightgw-homepage-post-1/


Aircraft that arrives from reserve can be set up anywhere, even in the middle of the board! But cannot be close to enemy models.

Longass way to say "You can ignore this model's base" ^^.

No mention in today's WHC article of turning radius... though with all the focus on how to handle flying off the table edge, I can only assume that still exists.

Interesting insight into how Strategic Reserves are potentially going to work (more details tomorrow). The specifics around flyers arriving no-closer-than-9" is interesting. Certainly gives a lot more maneuverability--though you'd lose a turn of shooting if you do that.

No mention of whether they are still "hard to hit" or not.
No mention as to whether they can start off in Strategic Reserves before the first turn.

Heh...the Archaeopter isn't listed.

Tyel wrote:
Mixed view on flyers tbh - although they didn't really explain how they will work.

Yes, movement blocking was lame.
Yes, circling round the battlefield acting more like a helicopter than the hypersonic fighter jet was a bit lame.

But... 40k is a model game. I don't *want* stuff to be off the board. (Which is also why I'm not really persuaded at all this outflank stuff they keep talking up). This sounds very much like a return to 7th where you are going to turn up and shoot, then fly off the board next turn, then rinse repeat. Which was kind of dull.

Better than 10 Guardmen destroying the plane because the plane doesn't have a place to end its movement anymore. That was one of the most stupid rules in 8th.

sieGermans wrote:
No mention in today's WHC article of turning radius... though with all the focus on how to handle flying off the table edge, I can only assume that still exists.

Interesting insight into how Strategic Reserves are potentially going to work (more details tomorrow). The specifics around flyers arriving no-closer-than-9" is interesting. Certainly gives a lot more maneuverability--though you'd lose a turn of shooting if you do that.

No mention of whether they are still "hard to hit" or not.
No mention as to whether they can start off in Strategic Reserves before the first turn.

Turning and "hard to hit" are datasheet rules, so it's expected to not be covered in the rules.
Why is it that you would lose one turn of shooting if you came back from reserves ? I didn't get that from the preview.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Heh...the Archaeopter isn't listed.

Someone on twitter said it already have the keyword on the datasheet, I can't check if true or not.

It doesn't actually say you can ignore an aircraft's base, does it? In other words, you still can't end your movement on top of an aircraft's base. So there will still be most of the opportunities for gaming with it. You can still move-block in the strictest sense that nobody can end their move/charge/consolidate/etc on the aircraft's base, so you can still use them to block off space in gimmicky ways.

It's an improvement, but it's still this weird halfway house where they're sort-of on the board and sort-of not.

dhallnet wrote:

Why is it that you would lose one turn of shooting if you came back from reserves ? I didn't get that from the preview.

Because if you move off during your movement phase, presumably the earliest time you can come back is the NEXT movement phase. I can't imagine the strategic reserve rule for aircraft lets you move of the board and then come back again in that *same* movement phase. That would basically mean the flyer gets to DS to a new position every single turn with no cost because you can always just move off the table then reappear anywhere.

dhallnet wrote:
Why is it that you would lose one turn of shooting if you came back from reserves ? I didn't get that from the preview.

If you move out of the board, you don't shoot for the turn you are out of the board (but cannot be shot at either). You can shot back the next turn when you come out of reserve.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Heh...the Archaeopter isn't listed.

Someone on twitter said it already have the keyword on the datasheet, I can't check if true or not.

It is true. All variants have the AIRCRAFT keyword.

kodos wrote:
We have not seen the LOS rules yet, how do you want to now what "normal" will be?

Fair enough. I'm making the assumption that targeting will still be based on TLOS. I'm also assuming that the point of that line in the Obscured rule is to indicate that models with 18+W and aircraft don't get the benefit of the rule. My pink text is just one example of how they could clarify that.

dhallnet wrote:

EnTyme wrote:
All they really have to do is errata the phrase "can be targeted" to "can be targeted as normal." It would refer the player back to normal targeting rules (i.e. TLOS).

They shouldn't have to because you're applying the targeting rules first and thus if the model can't be seen in the first place, you don't have to apply the rules for obscured.

You're right. They shouldn't, but this is the internet where we regularly see TFG arguing that basic English words don't mean what they mean if willfully misinterpreting the word benefits them. The more clarity in the rules the better.

sieGermans wrote:No mention in today's WHC article of turning radius... though with all the focus on how to handle flying off the table edge, I can only assume that still exists.

Turn radius could vary from model to model.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

dhallnet wrote:
Why is it that you would lose one turn of shooting if you came back from reserves ? I didn't get that from the preview.

If you move out of the board, you don't shoot for the turn you are out of the board (but cannot be shot at either). You can shot back the next turn when you come out of reserve.

Ah yeah, of course.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Better than 10 Guardmen destroying the plane because the plane doesn't have a place to end its movement anymore. That was one of the most stupid rules in 8th.

I guess.. immersion wise - but tbh, I felt that was your fault for putting your plane in the wrong place, and as a plane bringer you deserve everything you get (even if Eldar aside, planes have not been that great this edition.)

People seem to think its a big problem, so I guess it was - but I think it was incredibly rare to kill a plane via this method.
I've seen aircraft die due to going off the board - but that was usually because the player knew that was going to happen next turn, but they wanted them to move to a certain location in order to shoot something (often say sniping a character.)

I love the fact that they put in a whole paragraph pretty much saying "hey guys, these are just the short highlights of the full rules in the book"

Its as if they think people have been reading these previews and getting themselves worked up over wild conjecturing........

So far, so good as far as I am concerned.
Can't see much of a problem with the terrain (though i cant speak for organized tournament circuits, my group will probably come up with some form of sheet detailing what all our custom terrain does and does not do fairly easily)

LOVE the changes to monstrous creatures and command points.

Yeah, my hordes of termies and hormies may be getting more expensive and certainly more fragile, but I still think that maybe this is because cheap troop units are going to be more viable for the purposes of mission objectives (instead of say, killing stuff or tarpitting)

Intrigued by what these mission "actions" things are going to entail...could be mostly useless, or could be really fun. Its these and the crusade system (our group uses power level so I'm not at all worried about it) that's most interesting to me now.

Hopefully won't be too long before we get some words on the reserves changes they mentioned too.

Never liked 8th's rules that only stuff with a reserve related rule on the datasheet or powered by certain faction specific strategems could be held back.

I'd quite like to be able to send in my gaunts wave by wave like in the stories

As for my Ravenwing/Deathwing army its pretty much looking like its now going to be actually functional and able to win games, so positives all round for them.

Not sure about my Goff/Bad moon alliance yet (I built it to fight my Dark Angels, so its Ghazzy and a homemade Nazdreg ala Piscina), other than I may be putting some Skorchas on my Deff Dreads.

Overall, looks like very positive changes in 9th as a narrative player at least.

Hope you tournament players find it an improvement too

yukishiro1 wrote:
It doesn't actually say you can ignore an aircraft's base, does it? In other words, you still can't end your movement on top of an aircraft's base.

Correct. It doesn't spell it out, but while models can move across an aircraft's base, they can't end their move on it. [unless that's somehow part of normal rules for all models, but I doubt it.]

I'm glad, actually, because overlapping bases quickly becomes a problem. of displacing models when you want to move the one of the bottom.

So there will still be most of the opportunities for gaming with it. You can still move-block in the strictest sense that nobody can end their move/charge/consolidate/etc on the aircraft's base, so you can still use them to block off space in gimmicky ways.

Yep. This comes to mind with the Ad Mech flyers and their anti-aura strat. You can still spread out models and prevent them from stopping within 6" of an aura-giver.

It's an improvement, but it's still this weird halfway house where they're sort-of on the board and sort-of not.

Yeah. Its the last clause that worries me. Are there any strats or psychic powers that temporarily give Fly? Suddenly non-charge combat can happen to models that were previously ignoring the aircraft.

The opposite is (currently) true for the hover mode of the Stormtalon Gunship as well. The gunship suddenly hovers down into engagement with enemy models, not moving at all. What happens?


-----

princeyg wrote:I love the fact that they put in a whole paragraph pretty much saying "hey guys, these are just the short highlights of the full rules in the book"

That isn't what it says. It says they're previewing the bullet point summaries that are actually in the rulebook, but they aren't complete so you'll need to check the full rules and not just the summaries when you're trying to work out rules interactions.

WarCom wrote:The bullet points above are actually a preview of how each rules topic is conveniently summarised at the end of each section for easy reference. If you need a reminder, check the bullet points, but if you seek further clarification, you just read the full description above them. If only all things in life were that simple!

So they're bulletpoint summaries that leave out the necessary details to work out rules interactions, and this will be a 'feature' of the rulebook.

So have fun with arguments involving the following lines: 'the bulletpoints say this' and 'Yes, but the RULES say otherwise'

 Asmodai wrote:
Stu said in today's livestream you'll still need line of sight to shoot things, the terrain rules are just layered on top.

No need to panic.

Counter point he actually saif Flyers are always visable too.
And confirmed that it's intentional that LOS isn't reciprocated.

Small upside is if GW actually gices Knights fair points costs maybe taking 5 full knights or more of them in a 2k list might still be a thing.

BA Wings of Sanguinius comes to mind. A librarian (even a librarian dreadnaught!) can suddenly take off in the psychic phase.

I assume this will immediately put both units into combat...but who really knows?

If so, that really has the potential for weird, gamey interactions. The game isn't set up to allow stuff to enter combat during the movement and especially the psychic phases. It could do really strange things.

I wonder how much longer the 9th edition basic rules will be than the 8th edition?

Thus far, it looks like there will be quite a lot more rules.

Am I the only one who noticed that the article said that the new Forge World books will be coming out at the same time as 9th? So when are they going to start previewing those? I need to know if my resin toys are going to be better, or worse. And if my R&H will be back, or squatted.

So how exactly does a "murderous strafing run" work if shooting occurs after the movement phase?

Turn 1: move into position, and then shoot.
Turn 2 move off board, not allowed to shoot (maybe allow for a bomb to be dropped during movement phase?).
Turn 3 move back onto board.

So you miss out on an entire turn's shooting phase just to be able to fly off the board?

Edit: Also, does every aircraft have the ability to start in Strategic Reserves and arrive Turn 1?

Also, RAW, it doesn't say that "only models without fly can move within engagement range." It says any models can. So your smash captain can RAW move within 1" of an aircraft in the movement phase. Does this put him into combat, and therefore allow him to engage an aircraft without suffering overwatch?


Ooh, and another weird thing: why would having fly mean you don't get to ignore aircraft in the pile-in and consolidation phases? In 8th, the FLY keyword has no effect in the fight phase. Does this mean that FLY now works in the fight phase? Otherwise, this provision makes no sense.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Heh...the Archaeopter isn't listed.

Someone on twitter said it already have the keyword on the datasheet, I can't check if true or not.

It is true. All variants have the AIRCRAFT keyword.

So they do! Shows how much I've cared to look at the thing's rules compared to the Raiders.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Am I the only one who noticed that the article said that the new Forge World books will be coming out at the same time as 9th? So when are they going to start previewing those? I need to know if my resin toys are going to be better, or worse. And if my R&H will be back, or squatted.

"*** The list of Forge World Flyers receiving the Aircraft keyword will be included in their rules updates on the same day that the new edition is launched."

I think that means that there will be a FAQ Day 1, not that the books will be available Day 1.

In practice, most of the aircraft rules will play very similarly to the current ones.

I don't see many people choosing to fly off their table in the movement phase since you miss out on a whole turn of shooting by doing so. That's going to be more for a desperation tactic or when you're already got the enemy pinned in a corner.

"That isn't what it says. It says they're previewing the bullet point summaries that are actually in the rulebook, but they aren't complete so you'll need to check the full rules and not just the summaries when you're trying to work out rules interactions."

Perhaps I should have worded it differently but that is what I meant. I just found it funny that they would have to explain this bit at all. I mean "preview" kinda implies its not going to be the full rules itself right?

I didn't mean people were going to actually use the bulletpoints as the rules themselves, just a bit of silly humor about overreacting to snippets of various rules I've seen previously on this and many other forums.

yukishiro1 wrote:
BA Wings of Sanguinius comes to mind. A librarian (even a librarian dreadnaught!) can suddenly take off in the psychic phase.

I assume this will immediately put both units into combat...but who really knows?

If so, that really has the potential for weird, gamey interactions.

Thinking about it, it seems weird. As written, even flyers can move and ignore engagement range of aircraft (and vice versa), but its 'can' so...
But if you're fighting chaos marines at the base of a heldrake and you have 'Wings of Sanguinius' on, you can fight the marines while ignoring the aircraft, but you're suddenly stuck consolidating into the aircraft. But regardless of who's turn it is next, either the unit (flying or not) or the aircraft can move away using a normal move.

Heroic intervention seems a positive (you can suddenly charge the aircraft), but piles in or consolidates seems a negative- you're stuck going into a model that can just wander off. This actually sounds like something you'd want to do to an enemy, so they can't consolidate/pile into other stuff.

The stormtalon seems much more confusing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

princeyg wrote:
"That isn't what it says. It says they're previewing the bullet point summaries that are actually in the rulebook, but they aren't complete so you'll need to check the full rules and not just the summaries when you're trying to work out rules interactions."

Perhaps I should have worded it differently but that is what I meant. I just found it funny that they would have to explain this bit at all. I mean "preview" kinda implies its not going to be the full rules itself right?

No. For GW, preview means they're showing boxes of text from the book. There aren't any more rules for obscuring, and there aren't any more bullet points for aircraft/model interactions.

I didn't mean people were going to actually use the bulletpoints as the rules themselves, just a bit of silly humor about overreacting to snippets of various rules I've seen previously on this and many other forums.

You might not have meant that, but I'm telling you that there will be rules arguments centering around exactly that.