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Sorry, wait - why is heavy weapons movement by model and not by unit MORE consistent?

If I Advance with one model can I then shoot with the other models' non-Assault type shooting weapons later that turn?

How about if one model in a unit is in melee, do the others get to shoot as if they're not?

Or what if one model is in cover and the other isn't - do I get cover on that one model?

Can I Fall Back with just one guy to get out of melee combat, and the rest of the unit shoots like they were stationary?

no? Then isn't it more consistent to have units rather than models determine whether a unit moved when firing a heavy weapon? It's obviously more abstracted, which I will 100% concede, but it is definitely more consistent with the rest of how 8th is generally structured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When it comes to fall back, I definitely think there needs to be some middle ground where melee just doesn't always prevent shooting.

But, consider this.

1) many infantry units in the game have their shooting halved by being in melee, rather than removed. When you charge a unit of space marines, sisters of battle, kabalites, pretty much any melee focused unit like ork boyz etc, what's going to happen is you'll fight, then they'll fight you on your turn, then you take pistols on their turn, then they fight you on their turn.

2) vehicle and monster models will now be able to continue shooting while engaged in melee. This means an army can still be entirely a shooting army, but unlike now where a disposable line of chaff protects tanks from being tied up by cheap infantry, a tough line of tanks can prevent infantry from being tied up by cheap infantry. A Leman Russ Punisher commander requires an incredible number of ork boyz or genestealers or whatever to significantly damage, and a -1 to hit is not usually that much of a reduction in firepower, particularly in a game where -1 to hit is fairly common coming out of terrain. Additionally we know that Aircraft can not be tied up at all.

It almost seems to me, almost, that you could make fall back a 1cp strat with these changes, and you could still have a perfectly functional shooting-only army with slight adjustments to ensure that you have some monster/vehicle "bouncer" units like one-gun dreadnoughts, riptides, or hellhounds/dakka russes whose job is taking charges and continuing to shoot while not caring.

The problem with making it a strat is that it scales really poorly. I think 1k games, it could be a strat and most times you'd be fine. But in 2k games you'd have infantry focused guard, necron or tau armies in a real tight spot. Marines punch just as good as they shoot now, so I'm not too worried about them, but the armies that just kind of turn off in melee would definitely struggle in big games.

As long as pro-Fall Back abilities were not as uncommon as Anti-Fall Back abilities were in 8th ed, though, I think it'd be OK. Especially if they made FB stronger when you did do it, removing tripoint and allowing units to fall back and still shoot.

the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, wait - why is heavy weapons movement by model and not by unit MORE consistent?

If I Advance with one model can I then shoot with the other models' non-Assault type shooting weapons later that turn?

Advancing is a unit action in 8th, so even if the model with the heavy weapon didn't move it still advanced.

the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, wait - why is heavy weapons movement by model and not by unit MORE consistent?

If I Advance with one model can I then shoot with the other models' non-Assault type shooting weapons later that turn?

How about if one model in a unit is in melee, do the others get to shoot as if they're not?

Or what if one model is in cover and the other isn't - do I get cover on that one model?

Can I Fall Back with just one guy to get out of melee combat, and the rest of the unit shoots like they were stationary?

no? Then isn't it more consistent to have units rather than models determine whether a unit moved when firing a heavy weapon? It's obviously more abstracted, which I will 100% concede, but it is definitely more consistent with the rest of how 8th is generally structured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When it comes to fall back, I definitely think there needs to be some middle ground where melee just doesn't always prevent shooting.

But, consider this.

1) many infantry units in the game have their shooting halved by being in melee, rather than removed. When you charge a unit of space marines, sisters of battle, kabalites, pretty much any melee focused unit like ork boyz etc, what's going to happen is you'll fight, then they'll fight you on your turn, then you take pistols on their turn, then they fight you on their turn.

2) vehicle and monster models will now be able to continue shooting while engaged in melee. This means an army can still be entirely a shooting army, but unlike now where a disposable line of chaff protects tanks from being tied up by cheap infantry, a tough line of tanks can prevent infantry from being tied up by cheap infantry. A Leman Russ Punisher commander requires an incredible number of ork boyz or genestealers or whatever to significantly damage, and a -1 to hit is not usually that much of a reduction in firepower, particularly in a game where -1 to hit is fairly common coming out of terrain. Additionally we know that Aircraft can not be tied up at all.

It almost seems to me, almost, that you could make fall back a 1cp strat with these changes, and you could still have a perfectly functional shooting-only army with slight adjustments to ensure that you have some monster/vehicle "bouncer" units like one-gun dreadnoughts, riptides, or hellhounds/dakka russes whose job is taking charges and continuing to shoot while not caring.

The problem with making it a strat is that it scales really poorly. I think 1k games, it could be a strat and most times you'd be fine. But in 2k games you'd have infantry focused guard, necron or tau armies in a real tight spot. Marines punch just as good as they shoot now, so I'm not too worried about them, but the armies that just kind of turn off in melee would definitely struggle in big games.

As long as pro-Fall Back abilities were not as uncommon as Anti-Fall Back abilities were in 8th ed, though, I think it'd be OK. Especially if they made FB stronger when you did do it, removing tripoint and allowing units to fall back and still shoot.

Whoa a thoughtful and nuanced take on Dakka! It's like finding a shiny Pokemon! We must save this moment for the months of famine ahead of us

Faction focus chaos marines:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/17/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines-2gw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

This article is all over the place. It starts by talking about how various unspecified changes enhances unspecified lesser used units, the need to take multiple detachments going away because if you don't go-mono legion with no daemons, you're apparently playing chaos wrong.

And something, something spend all your CP on daemonforge, because daemon engines I guess benefit somewhat from various rules changes.

Also the terrain rules are good for chaos because of the semantic difference between 'updated' and 'overhauled' (whatever that is, he doesn't say), and how chaos is a melee army so the terrain changes help them because 8th terrain apparently had legalese loopholes that 'everyone' exploited to magically prevent attacks.

But meanwhile ignore that first comment about 'lesser-used' units and take berserkers and lord discordants, because they're just better.

Voss wrote:
Faction focus chaos marines:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/17/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines-2gw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

This article is all over the place. It starts by talking about how various unspecified changes enhances unspecified lesser used units, the need to take multiple detachments going away because if you don't go-mono legion with no daemons, you're apparently playing chaos wrong.

And something, something spend all your CP on daemonforge, because daemon engines I guess benefit somewhat from various rules changes.

Also the terrain rules are good for chaos because of the semantic difference between 'updated' and 'overhauled' (whatever that is), and how chaos is a melee army so the terrain changes help them because 8th terrain apparently had legalese loopholes that 'everyone' exploited to magically prevent attacks.

But meanwhile ignore that first comment about 'lesser-used' units and take berserkers and lord discordants, because they're just better.

You're 1 day late, we got that exciting preview on the rules for the defiler claws that GW made and hasn't changed since the Index yesterday.

I think the issue is that
1) falling back from a unit that is not a melee expert should be easy, because we don't want a unit of sisters to deactivate a unit of necron warriors by charging them with a few remaining survivors.
2) falling back from a unit that is a melee expert should not be easy, because turning your back to a unit of nobz, banshees, assault terminators or khorne berzerkers and running should end in your death.

Judging from cut them down, I somehow doubt that GW managed to tackle this properly.

 Ghaz wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, wait - why is heavy weapons movement by model and not by unit MORE consistent?

If I Advance with one model can I then shoot with the other models' non-Assault type shooting weapons later that turn?

Advancing is a unit action in 8th, so even if the model with the heavy weapon didn't move it still advanced.

yeah, that was my point. Most statuses carried forward from the movement phase were based on what the UNIT did, except for "did they move" which was based on what the MODEL did.

the new rule makes the rules of "what did they do in the movement phase" more consistent, not less, which is what the person I was responded to claimed.

the_scotsman wrote:

Voss wrote:
Faction focus chaos marines:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/17/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines-2gw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

This article is all over the place. It starts by talking about how various unspecified changes enhances unspecified lesser used units, the need to take multiple detachments going away because if you don't go-mono legion with no daemons, you're apparently playing chaos wrong.

And something, something spend all your CP on daemonforge, because daemon engines I guess benefit somewhat from various rules changes.

Also the terrain rules are good for chaos because of the semantic difference between 'updated' and 'overhauled' (whatever that is), and how chaos is a melee army so the terrain changes help them because 8th terrain apparently had legalese loopholes that 'everyone' exploited to magically prevent attacks.

But meanwhile ignore that first comment about 'lesser-used' units and take berserkers and lord discordants, because they're just better.

You're 1 day late, we got that exciting preview on the rules for the defiler claws that GW made and hasn't changed since the Index yesterday.

Huh. I blame haying season. And also the pages of 'discussion' about tri-pointing that swamped the thread.

Man, Games Workshop are really stretching this out aren't they. I don't have the time nor the energy to deal with this level of teasing. I'm giving it until the end of week to see something genuinely enticing, and if not, I'll probably drop until the whole thing is leaked and can read it on my own.

So today’s big reveal - you can pain your own minis in the colours you want. Tomorrow - you can glue the minis together!! Who knew!? Oh well, I guess we have to wait til Monday now to find out something new about 9th.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the issue is that
1) falling back from a unit that is not a melee expert should be easy, because we don't want a unit of sisters to deactivate a unit of necron warriors by charging them with a few remaining survivors.
2) falling back from a unit that is a melee expert should not be easy, because turning your back to a unit of nobz, banshees, assault terminators or khorne berzerkers and running should end in your death.

Judging from cut them down, I somehow doubt that GW managed to tackle this properly.

Part of me almost wonders if a system like this would work better, but understands that lethality is already such a problem and it'd just add to it:

You can delcare a Fall Back freely.

If you fall back your opponent gets to immediately fight as if it were the fight phase but with no pile in or consolidation.

you can also fire into melee.

After rolling to hit, roll a die for each successful hit. on a 4+, you allocate the hit to an enemy unit of your choice in the melee. on a 1-3, your opponent allocates the hit to a friendly unit of their choice in the melee.

Suddenly, being in melee is a 4++ that you get in top of your normal save rather than a total deactivation of incoming firepower.


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Darsath wrote:
Man, Games Workshop are really stretching this out aren't they. I don't have the time nor the energy to deal with this level of teasing. I'm giving it until the end of week to see something genuinely enticing, and if not, I'll probably drop until the whole thing is leaked and can read it on my own.

I heard tomorrow Stu is gonna show some leg, so you'll be excited for that.

Aash wrote:
So today’s big reveal - you can pain your own minis in the colours you want. Tomorrow - you can glue the minis together!! Who knew!? Oh well, I guess we have to wait til Monday now to find out something new about 9th.

I was curious to see if the new veterans would be officially part of the Deathwing, so that article was quite useful

 xttz wrote:

Aash wrote:
So today’s big reveal - you can pain your own minis in the colours you want. Tomorrow - you can glue the minis together!! Who knew!? Oh well, I guess we have to wait til Monday now to find out something new about 9th.

I was curious to see if the new veterans would be officially part of the Deathwing, so that article was quite useful

Whilst the vast majority won't care, this is actually a fairly big development in terms of lore.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Aash wrote:
So today’s big reveal - you can pain your own minis in the colours you want. Tomorrow - you can glue the minis together!! Who knew!? Oh well, I guess we have to wait til Monday now to find out something new about 9th.

I was curious to see if the new veterans would be officially part of the Deathwing, so that article was quite useful

Whilst the vast majority won't care, this is actually a fairly big development in terms of lore.

Undercuts their concept entirely imo.

Additionally, it is still bugging me that the veterens all have iron halos... Have we had anything written in any articles or stated on the streams to indicate the way storm shields work has changed? I wonder if they are going back to melee only, or is the iron halo just a design choice (and not actually an iron halo).


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changemod wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Aash wrote:
So today’s big reveal - you can pain your own minis in the colours you want. Tomorrow - you can glue the minis together!! Who knew!? Oh well, I guess we have to wait til Monday now to find out something new about 9th.

I was curious to see if the new veterans would be officially part of the Deathwing, so that article was quite useful

Whilst the vast majority won't care, this is actually a fairly big development in terms of lore.

Undercuts their concept entirely imo.

Until there are terminator primaris (and aggressors aren't them) then there needs to be models of some sort for primaris within the deathwing as they are now being accepted within the inner circle in the lore, so unless they all become masters and go back to companies, they need a place to go. I think they look cool in deathwing colours anyway.

Also, dark angels veterens should be in the deathwing.

It's an Astartes Stormshield.

There is still the issue with the odd KFF Big Mek, so invulnerable saves might no longer be usable in combat.

changemod wrote:
Undercuts their concept entirely imo.

So do Primaris Marines in general, if we're being honest.

 Alpharius wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
On the flipside tripointing might be gone because we'll ve seeing a change to falling back that makes it less automatic.

This is one of those things I'm eagerly waiting to know more on.

It's kind of make or break for me on this thing.

They've fixed one of the biggest problems with vehicles, they're adding an expandable and adaptable system to terrain (even if their verbiage is a bit confusing at times). The table sizes thing is slowed, but then again they're just doing that to sell the mats they make so it's really not that big a deal (please folks - stop pretending its for any other reason!). Neither is the "move one guy now HW is at -1" thing. That's annoying, and reeks of their inability to be consistent with rules design, but again, not a huge deal. The new missions concept sounds interesting, and like the terrain stuff, is easily adaptable. Army structure changes sound good, and I like any idea that divorces CP generation from army construction. Flyers? Whatever. I've never used one. If I ever do then great. The changes to reserves sound positive (I'd love to be able to walk my Genestealers on from the table edge of my swarm markers get removed on the (now smaller) table).

So it really it comes down to Falling Back, if they've made any changes to how shooting works (ie. S5 vs T8/9 should = NO! & 'see the tip of a spike = everything can fire at you' bull gak) and what, if anything, they've done with morale. They're the main 4 to me.

I'm with H.B.M.C. on this - all of the other changes are sounding pretty good, but how they handle 'Fall Back' and attempting to escape from CC is close to a 'make or break' thing for 40K 9th...

Must be correct if we three are in agreement.

Fall Back itself isn’t a bad idea - but the execution has been.

It has its place, because getting stuck in a one sided combat sucks arse, especially as they’re likely to finish you off in your own turn, and then spend theirs picking a new fight. But doing so without any really tangible downside or restriction is not the way to do it.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Additionally, it is still bugging me that the veterens all have iron halos... Have we had anything written in any articles or stated on the streams to indicate the way storm shields work has changed? I wonder if they are going back to melee only, or is the iron halo just a design choice (and not actually an iron halo).


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changemod wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

Aash wrote:
So today’s big reveal - you can pain your own minis in the colours you want. Tomorrow - you can glue the minis together!! Who knew!? Oh well, I guess we have to wait til Monday now to find out something new about 9th.

I was curious to see if the new veterans would be officially part of the Deathwing, so that article was quite useful

Whilst the vast majority won't care, this is actually a fairly big development in terms of lore.

Undercuts their concept entirely imo.

Until there are terminator primaris (and aggressors aren't them) then they need to be models of some sort for primaris within the deathwing as they are now being accepted within the inner circle in the lore, so unless they all become masters and go back to companies, they need a place to go. I think they look cool in deathwing colours anyway.

They went years saying that primaris have all-primaris chapters without so much as a hint of first company models, waiting in limbo for their heavy veteran version to come out would have been the status quo.

Next we’ll be seeing Redemptors in deathwing company colours despite their life support system being too faulty to allow for a venerable dread. But that’s fine, actively making no sense and undercutting core lore concepts is “better” than trying to reconcile things.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

changemod wrote:
Undercuts their concept entirely imo.

So do Primaris Marines in general, if we're being honest.

Well yeah, they’ve made very little effort to make sense of the rules, lore and models of primaris from the start. Their execution cheapens themselves as full of cheap gimmickry and regular marines as “inferior”.

the_scotsman wrote:

Voss wrote:
Faction focus chaos marines:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/17/faction-focus-chaos-space-marines-2gw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

This article is all over the place. It starts by talking about how various unspecified changes enhances unspecified lesser used units, the need to take multiple detachments going away because if you don't go-mono legion with no daemons, you're apparently playing chaos wrong.

And something, something spend all your CP on daemonforge, because daemon engines I guess benefit somewhat from various rules changes.

Also the terrain rules are good for chaos because of the semantic difference between 'updated' and 'overhauled' (whatever that is), and how chaos is a melee army so the terrain changes help them because 8th terrain apparently had legalese loopholes that 'everyone' exploited to magically prevent attacks.

But meanwhile ignore that first comment about 'lesser-used' units and take berserkers and lord discordants, because they're just better.

You're 1 day late, we got that exciting preview on the rules for the defiler claws that GW made and hasn't changed since the Index yesterday.

Yes, we already complained about that yesterday.

Today is for complaining about Necron paint schemes.

The death wing concept has evolved over the many years since it was introduced. There are pics in the rogue trader era compendium of a marine in MK7 in death wing colors. Other than the bone armor most of the fluff from the original death wing story is mostly gone. Dark angels stopped being the only chapter able to do full terminator armies a long time ago. Things will evolve. That being said I’d like to see primarisized terminator armor that could actually fit a person shaped person. The new gravis dudes with meltas are getting closer to this aesthetic.

The more I think about it, the more I like the suggestion of making falling back something you do at the end of the shooting phase. That strikes an excellent balance and it makes falling back about the unit saving its own skin, not about exposing the enemy's unit to shooting. It's always felt stupid that the main purpose to falling back was to enable the rest of your army to blast the unit off the table in your shooting phase.

I would add to the rule that when you make a fall-back move, the enemy unit you are falling back from gets to make a consolidate move immediately afterwards, if it hasn't already done so this phase. This would prevent someone from falling back to 1.01 inches away just to avoid the fight phase while still move blocking. You can fall back, but your opponent gets to move his models up a bit as a result, so if you want to get out of combat you have to move back a decent distance, which gives your opponent the chance to move up a decent distance as well. It also would mean that stuff with low movement characteristics couldn't fall back out of combat in some circumstances, which makes sense.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Additionally, it is still bugging me that the veterens all have iron halos... Have we had anything written in any articles or stated on the streams to indicate the way storm shields work has changed? I wonder if they are going back to melee only, or is the iron halo just a design choice (and not actually an iron halo).

This is driving me crazy too. They seem to be just tossing them about like they aren't actual limited relics, I guess Primaris must have gone to an Oprah Winfrey live recording. I don't like the way they look on the Lt and Bladeguard and if they have no rules interaction (and therefore needed for WYSIWYG), I'm lopping them off.

looks like sisters are are up next on the faction focus

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the issue is that
1) falling back from a unit that is not a melee expert should be easy, because we don't want a unit of sisters to deactivate a unit of necron warriors by charging them with a few remaining survivors.
2) falling back from a unit that is a melee expert should not be easy, because turning your back to a unit of nobz, banshees, assault terminators or khorne berzerkers and running should end in your death.

Judging from cut them down, I somehow doubt that GW managed to tackle this properly.

Remember when you could catch the enemy and completely destroy them if they fell back in 5th? It makes very little sense that we have no mechanic whatsoever from deterring falling back and the strategem is a half-measure. I agree with others that the health of 9th is largely tied to the outcome of falling back. I just hope they haven't ignored it outside of Cut Them Down, which is my fear.

 Latro_ wrote:
looks like sisters are are up next on the faction focus

Ok, real quick before they post it:

"here's the statline for the Exorcist, it's a blast weapon now that's so great"

"Immolators, their guns will shoot in melee now! Cor blimey mate!"

"Ever had a repentia squad die to overwatch? now they won't! Here is the statline for a repentia."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think the issue is that
1) falling back from a unit that is not a melee expert should be easy, because we don't want a unit of sisters to deactivate a unit of necron warriors by charging them with a few remaining survivors.
2) falling back from a unit that is a melee expert should not be easy, because turning your back to a unit of nobz, banshees, assault terminators or khorne berzerkers and running should end in your death.

Judging from cut them down, I somehow doubt that GW managed to tackle this properly.

Remember when you could catch the enemy and completely destroy them if they fell back in 5th? It makes very little sense that we have no mechanic whatsoever from deterring falling back and the strategem is a half-measure. I agree with others that the health of 9th is largely tied to the outcome of falling back. I just hope they haven't ignored it outside of Cut Them Down, which is my fear.

I don't because you could not fall back in 5th. Didn't exist as a voluntary action.

changemod wrote:

Next we’ll be seeing Redemptors in deathwing company colours despite their life support system being too faulty to allow for a venerable dread. But that’s fine, actively making no sense and undercutting core lore concepts is “better” than trying to reconcile things.

I know commenting on imaginary events is a staple for any Dakka discussion, but can we maybe wait until something happens before complaining about it?

pachow
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/18/faction-focus-adepta-sororitasgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

Some new 9th rules snuck into the sisters faction focus.

- Charges have to be able to reach ALL declared targets or the charge fails.

- Complete rewording of the Character rule to give more clarity and less protection when you have few models.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
looks like sisters are are up next on the faction focus

Ok, real quick before they post it:

"here's the statline for the Exorcist, it's a blast weapon now that's so great"

"Immolators, their guns will shoot in melee now! Cor blimey mate!"

"Ever had a repentia squad die to overwatch? now they won't! Here is the statline for a repentia."

Hey, let's all stop jumping to conclusions, ok? Why don't we wait until we have the complete article in hand before making any snap judgements!