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 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Who stays in combat for more than a round? Are you still playing 7th edition or something?

I mean if those bikes are staying in combat instead and only getting 10 attacks they are probably pretty happy with that, given the alternative is being blasted off the board and getting 0 attacks.

Yes, I'd probably feed them spawn and then counter-charge with a daemon engine. On average they can kill one spawn between melee and shooting. Scary.

Why do people keep thinking S4 attacks kills everything with ease?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

The issue with the new bikes, or potential issue, is they can be taken in huge numbers.

The max unit sizes for Primaris that min at 3 is 6. I'd be incredibly surprised if they were allowed to go to 9.

Because S4 with AP-1 and AP-2 Turn 2 onwards does a fairly decent amount of work against a lot of things especially anything T7 or less.

^and in White Scars those attacks are 2 dmg, in Iron Hands those 4 wounds have a 5+++, etc and regardless of which chapter they’re re-rolling all hits and 1’s to wound.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Who stays in combat for more than a round? Are you still playing 7th edition or something?

I mean if those bikes are staying in combat instead and only getting 10 attacks they are probably pretty happy with that, given the alternative is being blasted off the board and getting 0 attacks.

Yes, I'd probably feed them spawn and then counter-charge with a daemon engine. On average they can kill one spawn between melee and shooting. Scary.

Why do people keep thinking S4 attacks kills everything with ease?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

The issue with the new bikes, or potential issue, is they can be taken in huge numbers.

The max unit sizes for Primaris that min at 3 is 6. I'd be incredibly surprised if they were allowed to go to 9.

Because S4 with AP-1 and AP-2 Turn 2 onwards does a fairly decent amount of work against a lot of things especially anything T7 or less.

Just make your whole army immune to rend -2. Problem solved.

A regular bike is double the shooting and wounds as a regular tac marine. +1 toughness, high movement and always-on bolter discipline. The bike is less than the cost of two marines.
Why would the primaris bike being less than twice the cost of two primaris be so OP?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

However, if your Warlord is in a Super-heavy Detachment and is a Titanic Knight, you’ll get those 6 Command points back, so you should still have 12 points to work with. Even if your Warlord is a War Dog (or Armiger, if you’re going loyal), you’ll get 3 Command points – enough to pay fully for a Super-heavy Detachment with no Titanic units. So, if you’re looking to assemble a deadly hunting pack of War Dogs, we’ve got you covered too.

Chaos Knights Faction Focus

Assuming that it's the same for Loyalist Knights.

This discourages soup how? If there isn't a cost for bringing multiple codexes that they haven't showed us yet it costs the same CP to bring three knights and a battalion as it does to bring a battalion and one super heavy and a single super heavy from the same faction. That sucks for those of us who want to play a super heavy but remain mono faction but don't play a faction that gets a mono faction bonus.

Because you pay 3cp for that battalion and it can't have your warlord on. Paying 3cp is dissuading you from taking allies. But not getting a mono faction bonus is, has and will be worse compared to having one. Not sure what your point is really?

Taking one knight was a trap already, it's an even bigger trap if it costs you 3/6CP. Same for the vast majority of super heavies.

So if you want to take mortarion as your warlord in your death guard army it'll cost you 6CP?

Abaddon303 wrote:
A regular bike is double the shooting and wounds as a regular tac marine. +1 toughness, high movement and always-on bolter discipline. The bike is less than the cost of two marines.
Why would the primaris bike being less than twice the cost of two primaris be so OP?

Because current bikes aren't rocking base Ap -1 on their bolters going to Ap-2 with bolter disipline. Also these units aren't playing 8th they are playing 9th so also get Ap-1 chainswords because reasons. Also killing a 4 wound model when I can thing of maybe 2 or 3 weapons that have a flat damage value of 4 makes it way more likely they will waste damage from multi damage weapons and 4 wounds is enough that even Lascannon etc won't even have good odds against them. And in squads of 5 or less they will be imune to blast weapons.

It's minor advantages here and there that all add up to a unit that is how do I kill them efficiently when they cost so little and do so much damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abaddon303 wrote:
So if you want to take mortarion as your warlord in your death guard army it'll cost you 6CP?

No 3 CP unless Supreme comand is cheaper (doubt it) as he will be in a Super heavy Auxiliary detachment not a Super heavy detachment as it needs 3 LoW minimum.

He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

Only core Detachments have the CP refund for the warlord. SHAD don't get the refund.

See, no refund. I for one am happy that they have made taking Primarchs non-viable in matched play. I am disappointed they gave knights special snowflake rules to avoid the downside.

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

You can't get the cp back for a super heavy auxiliary, they explain patrol, battalion and brigade are the "core" detachments you get refunded if your warlord is in them.

A battalion costs 3cp, they've shown that too.

If you insist on having morty as a warlord then you'll need to pay 6cp total and none of it is free.

But intercessors have the -1ap too and that's what you're comparing them with. Killing a four wound unit is just as easy as killing 2 two wounds units. In fact it's easier because it is worth taking a punt with a D6 damage weapon.
A regular bike is not considered twice as good as a marine, so why should the primaris bike be considered twice as good as an intercessor?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

Only core Detachments have the CP refund for the warlord. SHAD don't get the refund.

Spoiler:

See, no refund. I for one am happy that they have made taking Primarchs non-viable in matched play. I am disappointed they gave knights special snowflake rules to avoid the downside.

Consider that perhaps they'll see a drop in points to compensate for the cp cost, they're certainly only non-viable if you want them as a warlord.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

Only core Detachments have the CP refund for the warlord. SHAD don't get the refund.

Spoiler:

See, no refund. I for one am happy that they have made taking Primarchs non-viable in matched play. I am disappointed they gave knights special snowflake rules to avoid the downside.

You'd rather peoples entire armiea and codex's were rendered unplayable trash would you?

Dudeface wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

You can't get the cp back for a super heavy auxiliary, they explain patrol, battalion and brigade are the "core" detachments you get refunded if your warlord is in them.

A battalion costs 3cp, they've shown that too.

If you insist on having morty as a warlord then you'll need to pay 6cp total and none of it is free.

Ah okay, so long and short of it is it still costs 6CP for Mortarion to lead his own army in his own codex.

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

How you get cp back? Patrol/bat/brigade gives back plus knights have own thing. Has there been dg leak i missea?

Oh and bat is 3cp

Abaddon303 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

You can't get the cp back for a super heavy auxiliary, they explain patrol, battalion and brigade are the "core" detachments you get refunded if your warlord is in them.

A battalion costs 3cp, they've shown that too.

If you insist on having morty as a warlord then you'll need to pay 6cp total and none of it is free.

Ah okay, so long and short of it is it still costs 6CP for Mortarion to lead his own army in his own codex.

No you just never take him as the warlord like a sane person and make one of the HQ's you have to take in the battalion your warlord.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

You can't get the cp back for a super heavy auxiliary, they explain patrol, battalion and brigade are the "core" detachments you get refunded if your warlord is in them.

A battalion costs 3cp, they've shown that too.

If you insist on having morty as a warlord then you'll need to pay 6cp total and none of it is free.

Ah okay, so long and short of it is it still costs 6CP for Mortarion to lead his own army in his own codex.

Only if he gets 6CP worth of bonuses tacked on.

Abaddon303 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
He'll be in a super heavy auxillary that I'll get my CP back for as he's my warlord. But then it'll cost me 6CP for my death guard battalion.

You can't get the cp back for a super heavy auxiliary, they explain patrol, battalion and brigade are the "core" detachments you get refunded if your warlord is in them.

A battalion costs 3cp, they've shown that too.

If you insist on having morty as a warlord then you'll need to pay 6cp total and none of it is free.

Ah okay, so long and short of it is it still costs 6CP for Mortarion to lead his own army in his own codex.

Yup, not saying it's right, hopefully they allow him being able to refund himself but that will need to be in a day 1 faq

Ice_can wrote:
You'd rather peoples entire armiea and codex's were rendered unplayable trash would you?

If they are Knights, then yes. They should be banished to Apoc.

Same for Primarchs and other LoW/Superheavies.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

However, if your Warlord is in a Super-heavy Detachment and is a Titanic Knight, you’ll get those 6 Command points back, so you should still have 12 points to work with. Even if your Warlord is a War Dog (or Armiger, if you’re going loyal), you’ll get 3 Command points – enough to pay fully for a Super-heavy Detachment with no Titanic units. So, if you’re looking to assemble a deadly hunting pack of War Dogs, we’ve got you covered too.

Chaos Knights Faction Focus

Assuming that it's the same for Loyalist Knights.

This discourages soup how? If there isn't a cost for bringing multiple codexes that they haven't showed us yet it costs the same CP to bring three knights and a battalion as it does to bring a battalion and one super heavy and a single super heavy from the same faction. That sucks for those of us who want to play a super heavy but remain mono faction but don't play a faction that gets a mono faction bonus.

Because you pay 3cp for that battalion and it can't have your warlord on. Paying 3cp is dissuading you from taking allies. But not getting a mono faction bonus is, has and will be worse compared to having one. Not sure what your point is really?

Oh, right, guard and csm won't want to soup with knights because they'll lose their mono faction bonus. What are those mono faction bonuses they get again?

Makes complete sense that Eldar pay 3CP for a single wraithknight while those factions pay 3CP for three knights as well, as much as I hate taking up for Eldar.

Seems a real oversight so hopefully an errata coming as you say. At least Guilliman gives a CP boost already to mitigate the cost slightly.
Appreciate making the primarchs warlord is sub-optimal but not everybody plays 100% competitive. Don't think they deserve a further 6CP kick in the teeth for it on top...

Dudeface wrote:

Yup, not saying it's right, hopefully they allow him being able to refund himself but that will need to be in a day 1 faq

I won't be shocked if Primarchs get a FAQ update more or less like the Traitoris Lance rule. I'd personally like to see them discouraged, but I can't see GW putting the centerpiece models for the poster boys at such a cost.
You'll still have to pay some CP for the second detachment though, so at least there is some cost.


-----
As far as knights go, it seems clear that Knights will be the primary detachment with the warlord if you want multiple knights. Otherwise the CP cost is just too high.
If you have two identical armies, but one has a knight warlord and a guard/marine/AdMech patrol, that costs 2 CP (3 for battalion), whereas a guard/marine/AdMech warlord with knight detachment costs 6 CP, even if every model in the army is otherwise exactly the same.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You'd rather peoples entire armiea and codex's were rendered unplayable trash would you?

If they are Knights, then yes. They should be banished to Apoc.

Same for Primarchs and other LoW/Superheavies.

Then you might want to go play Killteam it sounds like it's more the game you want 40k to be.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

However, if your Warlord is in a Super-heavy Detachment and is a Titanic Knight, you’ll get those 6 Command points back, so you should still have 12 points to work with. Even if your Warlord is a War Dog (or Armiger, if you’re going loyal), you’ll get 3 Command points – enough to pay fully for a Super-heavy Detachment with no Titanic units. So, if you’re looking to assemble a deadly hunting pack of War Dogs, we’ve got you covered too.

Chaos Knights Faction Focus

Assuming that it's the same for Loyalist Knights.

This discourages soup how? If there isn't a cost for bringing multiple codexes that they haven't showed us yet it costs the same CP to bring three knights and a battalion as it does to bring a battalion and one super heavy and a single super heavy from the same faction. That sucks for those of us who want to play a super heavy but remain mono faction but don't play a faction that gets a mono faction bonus.

Because you pay 3cp for that battalion and it can't have your warlord on. Paying 3cp is dissuading you from taking allies. But not getting a mono faction bonus is, has and will be worse compared to having one. Not sure what your point is really?

Oh, right, guard and csm won't want to soup with knights because they'll lose their mono faction bonus. What are those mono faction bonuses they get again?

Makes complete sense that Eldar pay 3CP for a single wraithknight while those factions pay 3CP for three knights as well, as much as I hate taking up for Eldar.

They don't have a mono faction bonus? They don't however get a knight for free, it costs them 3cp.

Also the eldar pay 3cp for a wraithknight.

The knights army pays 3cp for a battalion of guard.

The knight must have the warlord in, that means no guard warlord which is another pay off.

You're also grossly over valuing wanting 3 18+ targets that people can see from literally anywhere on the board.

Seems 25.7 is streetday for 9th. Unless it goes to august. Next week preorders aos and bb

Abaddon303 wrote:
A regular bike is double the shooting and wounds as a regular tac marine. +1 toughness, high movement and always-on bolter discipline. The bike is less than the cost of two marines.
Why would the primaris bike being less than twice the cost of two primaris be so OP?

because its +2 wounds and the extra attacks an the charge rule...

RedNoak wrote:

 Oguhmek wrote:
So a Warbiker has the same statline except BS 5+ and a 4+ save with 2 wounds. With 2 attacks and 6 18" shots (at BS 5+), an Outrider should be worth more or less the same as two Warbikers. That's 46 points. Maybe add a few points for the better save and better leadership, that would put the Outrider at around 50 points, right?

Now watch GW put them at 40, and raise the cost of the Warbiker to 27 or so (because costs go up in 9th).

well seeing that a normal oldmarine biker already costs the same as an ork warbiker (balance blablablub )... a nob biker (+1w, +1s and +1attack) costs 10points more than a normal one... i am guessing 40 points for the primebike (+2w and +2a) including the 20% general increase in marinestuff...

nailed it

tneva82 wrote:
Seems 25.7 is streetday for 9th. Unless it goes to august. Next week preorders aos and bb

I'm slowly going from excited to annoyed with the time scales, I'm ready to crack on with it and the new box set but the 2 month drip feed seems excessive and designed to frustrate.

They might change who/what is a Lord of War to stop some of the centre piece models being less fielded?

Dudeface wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Seems 25.7 is streetday for 9th. Unless it goes to august. Next week preorders aos and bb

I'm slowly going from excited to annoyed with the time scales, I'm ready to crack on with it and the new box set but the 2 month drip feed seems excessive and designed to frustrate.

Well i was there waiting 8th ed so have had same wait once before.