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 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

Well... I'm afraid unit after unit after unit kind of drag people down.

We don't know what price everything is going to be in the new edition - but for the sake of argument, what price should this be in 8th?

Because as said - it seems you take retributors, and add at least 50% more to that. (You'd still be coming out ahead on toughness, 9 wounds to 7.5, melee potential etc - but ignoring that.)
138*1.5=207.
Divide by 3=69 points per model.

Now if each model was 69 points would we be saying these were overpowered? No, we'd probably be saying they are a bit crap. Too fragile, don't do much damage.
But that's the world comparable units are in.

But the odds of this unit being anything like 207 points seems... rather slim. Unless Power Level has been completely changed.
The suggestion is they could be about half that. Which is where the obnoxiousness comes in.

Voss wrote:
Hmm.
I like the edition of model numbers to the statline.
Easier to see at a glance rather than being part of the gear paragraph.

Plus it makes an easy distinction between 8th and 9th datacards.

Agreed. The equipment section is much easier to read.

Honestly I'm half expecting that we are seeing the box point costs, which are going to be different from the final point costs.

Similar to when the Dark Imperium point costs were not consistent with the Index point costs.

I guess shooting x2 is the Aggressor shtick. At least it makes melta viable again, just need points to match.

Fire Dragons, and aspects in general, need such a bump.

Fire Dragons, a unit of a NPC faction among others, have became a weak unit that is not even available for purchase from GW since at least five months.

This new eradicator marines are the final nail in the coffin.

O_o

Instead of just getting meltaguns, these guys have...better versions of Multimeltas.

That get to shoot twice.

On a T5 W3 platform.

Movie Marines have become reality

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

25 PL is 500 points in 9th as pwr the combat patrol article.

500/25= 1PL=20 points or Less as you round up in PL
Right now something about these Prumaris reveals is just either totally wrong, GW have set out to break the game or actually nobody else is actually seeing units go up in points as these guys cost less with more firepower and/or durability of every factions comparable units, (in pre increases 8th edition points)

 Arbitrator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

I do always wonder, do GW pay you for your service or is it a volunteer position?

If these chaps turn out to be cheaper but better than pretty much any of their non-Primaris equivalent anti-armour infantry I will not be surprised in the slightest.

Funny. I mean not really, but at least you tried I guess. I have said more times than I care to count that there is always time to call GW out when we know they screwed up. But calling them out for things we assume are screw ups? A waste of time.

Melta was friggin awful in 8th. It was so bad people were arguing that heavy bolters were better anti tank. Doubling the number of shots at a single might be the only way to save it.

5 PL could be anything. It could be 100 points, or 150 points. We can assume that they'll cost roughly 33ppm, but we don't have evidence of that. Heck, we don't even know if they're adding wargear into PL anymore since they're messing with PL right now too.

Howl into the void about how you assume GW is screwing the game up, but don't be shocked if people get tired of listening to kneejerk reactions over assumptions.

I guess this is good news for anyone wanting the boxed set for the Necron models. It should be easy to recoup costs with the Primaris. Bad news for anyone wanting to play the game, though.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Fire Dragons, a unit of a NPC faction among others, have became a weak unit that is not even available for purchase from GW since at least five months.

This new eradicator marines are the final nail in the coffin.

FFS GW isn't killing off the Aspects. I'd expect them to see the Banshee update with Ynarii heads before that.

I look forward to Fire Dragons costing 9-10 points per model after this in the new edition. Which probably means Defender Guardians are going to be 6-7 points. We can probably call them the Aeldari Militarum at this point.

I think the one thing that pushes Eradicators over the edge is their Double-shooting special ability. It should probably have some additional limitation (such as only vs Vehicles, or only in half range etc).

Hmm, so what will this mean for the MM on the dunebuggy?

I mean, at least GW knows melta is bad....but their idea of a fix? Lol

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Fire Dragons, a unit of a NPC faction among others, have became a weak unit that is not even available for purchase from GW since at least five months.

This new eradicator marines are the final nail in the coffin.

FFS GW isn't killing off the Aspects. I'd expect them to see the Banshee update with Ynarii heads before that.

I hope you're right and we do see the Xeno's adjusted somewhat, but it sure smarts to see a visually smaller, more puny version of a Multimelta outperform a multimelta.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

I do always wonder, do GW pay you for your service or is it a volunteer position?

If these chaps turn out to be cheaper but better than pretty much any of their non-Primaris equivalent anti-armour infantry I will not be surprised in the slightest.

Funny. I mean not really, but at least you tried I guess. I have said more times than I care to count that there is always time to call GW out when we know they screwed up. But calling them out for things we assume are screw ups? A waste of time.

Melta was friggin awful in 8th. It was so bad people were arguing that heavy bolters were better anti tank. Doubling the number of shots at a single might be the only way to save it.

5 PL could be anything. It could be 100 points, or 150 points. We can assume that they'll cost roughly 33ppm, but we don't have evidence of that. Heck, we don't even know if they're adding wargear into PL anymore since they're messing with PL right now too.

Howl into the void about how you assume GW is screwing the game up, but don't be shocked if people get tired of listening to kneejerk reactions over assumptions.

They look like the AV version of aggressors (which have the same power level for a 3 man squad). Aggressors are 37pmm base so these guys are probably going to just as expensive I would guess, maybe more. Also 37pmm was not even aggressors original pt cost, they were 43pmm with the first codex in 8th. So these new models are probably going to be closer to 40+ pts per model especially since 9th is increasing pt costs across the board.

Did they take down the article people were getting these things from? I'm not seeing it on the warhammer community site.

On the power level thing, the only thing that makes sense is if that's the base power level for the unit without weapons, and that the melta rifle costs additional power level points. Now I have no idea why they would do that...but it's the only thing that makes sense.

I have been on the "GW deliberately overpowers things to sell models" train in the past, but 100 points for 3 of these would be absolutely ridiculous even for a GW release designed to sell models.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

I do always wonder, do GW pay you for your service or is it a volunteer position?

If these chaps turn out to be cheaper but better than pretty much any of their non-Primaris equivalent anti-armour infantry I will not be surprised in the slightest.

Funny. I mean not really, but at least you tried I guess. I have said more times than I care to count that there is always time to call GW out when we know they screwed up. But calling them out for things we assume are screw ups? A waste of time.

Melta was friggin awful in 8th. It was so bad people were arguing that heavy bolters were better anti tank. Doubling the number of shots at a single might be the only way to save it.

5 PL could be anything. It could be 100 points, or 150 points. We can assume that they'll cost roughly 33ppm, but we don't have evidence of that. Heck, we don't even know if they're adding wargear into PL anymore since they're messing with PL right now too.

Howl into the void about how you assume GW is screwing the game up, but don't be shocked if people get tired of listening to kneejerk reactions over assumptions.

Meltas have been translated into a weak weapon in 8th for all the armies.
So is the solution to make one army SM primaris, have an access to a bespoke weapon with twice the range, twice the shots, for only 5 PL and call it a day ?
Because that's we have now.
Compare the Eradicators to Tau crisis (with 18" range meltas), for 12 PL, and you will understand there is something very wrong with GW's policy regarding primaris.

And they have previewed that the Patrol armies in the launch box amount for 25 PL, roughly 500 points.
So the ratio we alredy had for powerlevel seems unchanged : 1 PL = ~20 points.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Did they take down the article people were getting these things from? I'm not seeing it on the warhammer community site.

The info is from the livestream. Article should be up soon.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I look forward to Fire Dragons costing 9-10 points per model after this in the new edition. Which probably means Defender Guardians are going to be 6-7 points. We can probably call them the Aeldari Militarum at this point.

good luck my cultists are 6 pts confirmed
guardians are prob gonna be 12

 Arbitrator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

I do always wonder, do GW pay you for your service or is it a volunteer position?

If these chaps turn out to be cheaper but better than pretty much any of their non-Primaris equivalent anti-armour infantry I will not be surprised in the slightest.

I appreciate both sides of the argument. There's still some stuff we don't know, but at the same time there seems to be little room to maneuver for these to make sense.

PL is still 20 points, so these guys are just too cheap. I get that it can be hard to balance a small unit - if I point my Armiger at them they're going to lose two models pretty easily, but double tap is a bit much. They kill any T7 vehicle (no rerolls even) without an invulnerable and that's just stupid good.

I subsequently cancelled my pre-order with my FLGS and sent an email to GW about it. I'll sit on my hands and wait for the rest to pop up before I commit money.

The PL for the eradictors does seem very low, but it could be that when the multipart models are released they have a different weapon option that’s cheaper in points. As we all know, PL doesn’t account for different options, so it might be that the points with the new melta guns is higher than the straight translation of PL x 20 = pts.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I look forward to Fire Dragons costing 9-10 points per model after this in the new edition. Which probably means Defender Guardians are going to be 6-7 points. We can probably call them the Aeldari Militarum at this point.

good luck my cultists are 6 pts confirmed
guardians are prob gonna be 12

You are thinking too small. Obviously Guardians are superior ancient race so Guardians are probably going to be 20 points.

Aash wrote:
The PL for the eradictors does seem very low, but it could be that when the multipart models are released they have a different weapon option that’s cheaper in points. As we all know, PL doesn’t account for different options, so it might be that the points with the new melta guns is higher than the straight translation of PL x 20 = pts.

No, the unit datasheet shows that there are no weapon options. Eradicators come with the bespoke melta rifle and cost only 5 PL, so ~100 points only for that profile.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

I do always wonder, do GW pay you for your service or is it a volunteer position?

If these chaps turn out to be cheaper but better than pretty much any of their non-Primaris equivalent anti-armour infantry I will not be surprised in the slightest.

I appreciate both sides of the argument. There's still some stuff we don't know, but at the same time there seems to be little room to maneuver for these to make sense.

PL is still 20 points, so these guys are just too cheap. I get that it can be hard to balance a small unit - if I point my Armiger at them they're going to lose two models pretty easily, but double tap is a bit much. They kill any T7 vehicle (no rerolls even) without an invulnerable and that's just stupid good.

I subsequently cancelled my pre-order with my FLGS and sent an email to GW about it. I'll sit on my hands and wait for the rest to pop up before I commit money.

The main problem with the Eradicators if we want to nitpick is that they are prime targets for high damage weapons. With 3 wounds you are more likely to get your damage output's worth compared to shooting something that has 1 wound. If I shoot a dissie at a Defender Guardian I am more or less always losing out on inflicting 1 damage with each shot, whereas with these Eradijokers I lose 1 damage output on every 2 shots.

Again, this only applies if you want to find any fault at all with the unit.

Aash wrote:
The PL for the eradictors does seem very low, but it could be that when the multipart models are released they have a different weapon option that’s cheaper in points. As we all know, PL doesn’t account for different options, so it might be that the points with the new melta guns is higher than the straight translation of PL x 20 = pts.

This is the only hope, but unfortunately I really doubt it is the case.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Did they take down the article people were getting these things from? I'm not seeing it on the warhammer community site.

On the power level thing, the only thing that makes sense is if that's the base power level for the unit without weapons, and that the melta rifle costs additional power level points. Now I have no idea why they would do that...but it's the only thing that makes sense.

I have been on the "GW deliberately overpowers things to sell models" train in the past, but 100 points for 3 of these would be absolutely ridiculous even for a GW release designed to sell models.

GW knows PL needs to be tweaked as it didn't work long term in 8th due to never being rebalance. I sincerely hope they wised up and at put more levers into PL so it can see better adjustment.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

I do always wonder, do GW pay you for your service or is it a volunteer position?

If these chaps turn out to be cheaper but better than pretty much any of their non-Primaris equivalent anti-armour infantry I will not be surprised in the slightest.

I appreciate both sides of the argument. There's still some stuff we don't know, but at the same time there seems to be little room to maneuver for these to make sense.

PL is still 20 points, so these guys are just too cheap. I get that it can be hard to balance a small unit - if I point my Armiger at them they're going to lose two models pretty easily, but double tap is a bit much. They kill any T7 vehicle (no rerolls even) without an invulnerable and that's just stupid good.

I subsequently cancelled my pre-order with my FLGS and sent an email to GW about it. I'll sit on my hands and wait for the rest to pop up before I commit money.

The main problem with the Eradicators if we want to nitpick is that they are prime targets for high damage weapons. With 3 wounds you are more likely to get your damage output's worth compared to shooting something that has 1 wound. If I shoot a dissie at a Defender Guardian I am more or less always losing out on inflicting 1 damage with each shot, whereas with these Eradijokers I lose 1 damage output on every 2 shots.
=

Again, this only applies if you want to find any fault at all with the unit.

You assume the dissies won't get blast?

The unit coherency rule is a total mess. Not only can you get around it with the two triangles...but it really cripples units of 6 with large bases, particularly if they have low movement values. Try playing around with it yourself on a table if you don't believe me. Maneuvering a unit of 6 40mm or especially 60mm models so that every one of them stays within 2" of another two is very difficult. It's not about conga-lining - just about moving them the way you'd normally like to move them, particularly if there's any terrain or especially enemy models limiting your options. You are frequently not going to be able to make the move you want to make because of the coherency rules. Threading between two enemy units becomes almost impossible, for example.

So the rule doesn't prevent what it's trying to prevent, while crippling units it shouldn't cripple.

All it really does is mean nobody will ever take units of 6 no matter what. Which weren't an issue for conga lines in the first place, so why they decided to set the limit at 6 models, I have no idea. Why not 11?

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
People need to stop griping about powercreep. We don't know how PL translates into points for sure yat. I get you're looking for reasons to be mad, but winding up over assumptions seems a bit silly.

I do always wonder, do GW pay you for your service or is it a volunteer position?

If these chaps turn out to be cheaper but better than pretty much any of their non-Primaris equivalent anti-armour infantry I will not be surprised in the slightest.

Funny. I mean not really, but at least you tried I guess. I have said more times than I care to count that there is always time to call GW out when we know they screwed up. But calling them out for things we assume are screw ups? A waste of time.

Melta was friggin awful in 8th. It was so bad people were arguing that heavy bolters were better anti tank. Doubling the number of shots at a single might be the only way to save it.

5 PL could be anything. It could be 100 points, or 150 points. We can assume that they'll cost roughly 33ppm, but we don't have evidence of that. Heck, we don't even know if they're adding wargear into PL anymore since they're messing with PL right now too.

Howl into the void about how you assume GW is screwing the game up, but don't be shocked if people get tired of listening to kneejerk reactions over assumptions.

Meltas have been translated into a weak weapon in 8th for all the armies.
So is the solution to make one army SM primaris, have an access to a bespoke weapon with twice the range, twice the shots, for only 5 PL and call it a day ?
Because that's we have now.
Compare the Eradicators to Tau crisis (with 18" range meltas), for 12 PL, and you will understand there is something very wrong with GW's policy regarding primaris.

And they have previewed that the Patrol armies in the launch box amount for 25 PL, roughly 500 points.
So the ratio we alredy had for powerlevel seems unchanged : 1 PL = ~20 points.

And do we know if GW has left Fire Dragons out in the cold, or are we assuming things?

We know FAQs and points changes are coming. We don't know anything about what's in them.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Did they take down the article people were getting these things from? I'm not seeing it on the warhammer community site.

On the power level thing, the only thing that makes sense is if that's the base power level for the unit without weapons, and that the melta rifle costs additional power level points. Now I have no idea why they would do that...but it's the only thing that makes sense.

I have been on the "GW deliberately overpowers things to sell models" train in the past, but 100 points for 3 of these would be absolutely ridiculous even for a GW release designed to sell models.

GW making things OP to sell models is like my biggest pet peeve argument. I think they just wanted something to make the unit special and forgot to check themselves.

On the power level thing, the only thing that makes sense is if that's the base power level for the unit without weapons, and that the melta rifle costs additional power level points.

Doesn't quite make sense. It could be possible that weapons are no longer considered in PL, but then....I don't know. Just doesn't make sense yet.