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 Nah Man Pichu wrote:
Like the intent, but they clearly didn't think through the execution too much lol.

You just summed up 35 years of GW game design

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
Conga line is dead. New coherency rules.

Behold, a totally not a daisy chain/conga line!

Spoiler:

This new rule did quite literally nothing except prevent coherency from ground level to 2nd floor of standard 3" floor ruins.

Conga line will not survive losses, and the new coherency check :

Yeah, the response of most players is just going to be to never take units of more than 5 because they're afraid it'll result in their squads disappearing magically (doesn't count as fleeing or being destroyed, they just go poof! as if they were never there!) because they got out of coherency.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Oh wow, the unit coherency rules now also require you to *remove models* to get back into unit coherency.



This is such a trap for the unwary. Pull one single casualty and your whole squad can disappear down to about 3ish models.

The Death Jester ability to choose which model flees first is going to cause whole squads to evaporate now when people aren't careful.

This rule is going to create so much mess and unintended consequences.

Also opens up a whole branch of new tactics, the temporary wall.

Cheap unit blocking in a line, gets shot at so intentionally remove the two middle models. Next turn by this rule the entire left or right side of the line is killed.

Now all you stuff this line was blocking beind you can move like tanks etc

 Latro_ wrote:
what i dot get is, isnt most GW scenery (the new stuff) like 6" between levels. So the 5" vertical coherency is a bit

The stuff in the picture is 5" between levels.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, the response of most players is just going to be to never take units of more than 5 because they're afraid it'll result in their squads disappearing magically (doesn't count as fleeing or being destroyed, they just go poof! as if they were never there!) because they got out of coherency.

Or just invest in movement trays to solve the issue.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, the response of most players is just going to be to never take units of more than 5 because they're afraid it'll result in their squads disappearing magically (doesn't count as fleeing or being destroyed, they just go poof! as if they were never there!) because they got out of coherency.

Or you could just remove casualties in a sensible way and not have that happen. Seriously, it just stops conga lining, it doesn't make it so someone can kill three models and trigger a chain reaction the obliterates your entire horde (unless you're being super dumb).

Incredibly sensible rule.

 Rinkydink wrote:
Conga line is dead. New coherency rules.

So this was six pages back, but it does look like it's true now with those checks.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
Conga line is dead. New coherency rules.

Behold, a totally not a daisy chain/conga line!

Spoiler:

This new rule did quite literally nothing except prevent coherency from ground level to 2nd floor of standard 3" floor ruins.

Conga line will not survive losses, and the new coherency check :

So take the losses from one side.

It make conga lines shorter, but doesn’t stop them from being made by units with enough models to make triangles.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
not sure what cryptothralls are trying to be? meh CC troops and a support unit for a character you prob dont want in combat..

They're pretty damn good at melee. And that's probably the point - you have them so he isn't in combat.

what hitting on a 4 with 6 attacks
vs marines
3 hits
2 wounds
1 dead?

you'd need 6 of them to kill 3 marines.

only goes up to 4 dead marines if you have 6 of them and they are all within 3" of a tek

The point is for them to be next to the tek.

12 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 2.7 wounds to MEQ for ~40 points.
2 Primaris do 0.7 for the same cost.

It just isn't a unit you'll ever be flinging across the table since it will only ever be 2 models.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

GW has withheld information before.

Heck Eliminators had a gun option missing when they came out in the original set, but the PL already reflected their full options AFAIK.

To be fair, Eliminators had the Las-Fusil spoiled with the Apocalypse datasheets.

changemod wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
Conga line is dead. New coherency rules.

Behold, a totally not a daisy chain/conga line!

Spoiler:

This new rule did quite literally nothing except prevent coherency from ground level to 2nd floor of standard 3" floor ruins.

Conga line will not survive losses, and the new coherency check :

So take the losses from one side.

It make conga lines shorter, but doesn’t stop them from being made by units with enough models to make triangles.

You can still conga line, but usually that's done to stretch between two objectives. Now you only need to shoot a few models off the unit to force them off one objective, which nerfs 90% of what conga lining was about.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
not sure what cryptothralls are trying to be? meh CC troops and a support unit for a character you prob dont want in combat..

They're pretty damn good at melee. And that's probably the point - you have them so he isn't in combat.

what hitting on a 4 with 6 attacks
vs marines
3 hits
2 wounds
1 dead?

you'd need 6 of them to kill 3 marines.

only goes up to 4 dead marines if you have 6 of them and they are all within 3" of a tek

The point is for them to be next to the tek.

12 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 2.7 wounds to MEQ for ~40 points.
2 Primaris do 0.7 for the same cost.

It just isn't a unit you'll ever be flinging across the table since it will only ever be 2 models.

to be fair i plays orks and world eaters, thats what i think when i think mele

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
not sure what cryptothralls are trying to be? meh CC troops and a support unit for a character you prob dont want in combat..

They're pretty damn good at melee. And that's probably the point - you have them so he isn't in combat.

what hitting on a 4 with 6 attacks
vs marines
3 hits
2 wounds
1 dead?

you'd need 6 of them to kill 3 marines.

only goes up to 4 dead marines if you have 6 of them and they are all within 3" of a tek

The point is for them to be next to the tek.

12 * .666 * .666 * .5 = 2.7 wounds to MEQ for ~40 points.
2 Primaris do 0.7 for the same cost.

It just isn't a unit you'll ever be flinging across the table since it will only ever be 2 models.

Yeah you don't take these guys by themselves, they guard the cryptek and ruin anyone that comes close. With a cryptek nearby i.e.the only time you'd take them, they're 6 attacks each and hitting on 3s. Also don't forget those pistol eyes, that's an extra two shots at str 5 -2 1d per turn, which they can fire in melee if still there at that point. Seriosuly, for the cost or a single intercessor, they're good.

It all comes down to how worth guarding a cryptek is gonna be.

So Hordes are not auto-killed by Moral tests any more but removed from the table by unit coherency check

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

GW has withheld information before.

Heck Eliminators had a gun option missing when they came out in the original set, but the PL already reflected their full options AFAIK.

To be fair, Eliminators had the Las-Fusil spoiled with the Apocalypse datasheets.

True, but the point stands: GW has left wargear options off datasheets while having PL reflect those options.

I will say, however, the new coherency check makes daisy chaining a unit extremely fragile, to the point of a failure cascade wiping out half the unit if a single model dies. I like this change, which is a rare occurance.

 kodos wrote:
So Hordes are not auto-killed by Moral tests any more but removed from the table by unit coherency check

Only if you play them as congalines.

I feel like hordes aren't dead, but the carpet of bodies being congalined back to single models to get a buff is dead. Hordes look like they'll work better in power pairs with HQs but that's just an assumption.

IanVanCheese wrote:
You can still conga line, but usually that's done to stretch between two objectives. Now you only need to shoot a few models off the unit to force them off one objective, which nerfs 90% of what conga lining was about.

With what GW has said recently about controlling objectives in 9th, daisy-chaining isn't feasible anyway...

lol GW bringing back people having to pay attention to unit coherency, very sneaky.

I've been moving units as a big fat clump since forever so its my time to shine.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I will say, however, the new coherency check makes daisy chaining a unit extremely fragile, to the point of a failure cascade wiping out half the unit if a single model dies. I like this change, which is a rare occurance.

Spoiler:

Shorter lines of 2 ranks should do the trick. Still allows some stretch but won't lose coherency as easilly.

That is indeed a surprisingly elegant way of fixing conga-lines.

Accidentally losing coherency can also be avoided by just setting up your horde unit in triangles.

IanVanCheese wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, the response of most players is just going to be to never take units of more than 5 because they're afraid it'll result in their squads disappearing magically (doesn't count as fleeing or being destroyed, they just go poof! as if they were never there!) because they got out of coherency.

Or you could just remove casualties in a sensible way and not have that happen. Seriously, it just stops conga lining, it doesn't make it so someone can kill three models and trigger a chain reaction the obliterates your entire horde (unless you're being super dumb).

Incredibly sensible rule.

It's really not this simple once you start getting into tables with terrain and enemy models on them. It absolutely doesn't "just stop conga lining." Put some models on large bases on a table and start fiddling around, you'll see how much this can muck up movement of 6-model units on large bases. 60mm bases in particular are really screwed - even putting 6 models in a straight line base-to-base doesn't keep them in coherency because 60mm is bigger than 2". This severely limits your movement options with these units, for no real reason. Does anyone really think there is a good reason why 5 models on 60mm bases can be stretched out to cover 23" of board space, but a unit of 6 must be bunched up to cover far less space? Or that there is a good reason why a unit of 5 can move in a line to maneuver through a narrow corridor, but a unit of 6 cannot?

I agree it's less of a problem for true horde units on smaller bases, though it will still result in weird situations there too where you aren't able to make legitimate, non-conga-line moves you ought to be able to make.

Not sure I like the coherency change.
I get that it solves conga lines, but moving hordes around just got a lot more finicky.

Say you have a unit of 30 orks. With the new change, you now have to make sure that every orks is within 2" of 2 more orks, or else you will take casualties.

This means that every time you move them, you have to do a head count and measure to make sure that you aren't going to take extra losses at the end of the phase.

So when is this coherency check taken?

yukishiro1 wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, the response of most players is just going to be to never take units of more than 5 because they're afraid it'll result in their squads disappearing magically (doesn't count as fleeing or being destroyed, they just go poof! as if they were never there!) because they got out of coherency.

Or you could just remove casualties in a sensible way and not have that happen. Seriously, it just stops conga lining, it doesn't make it so someone can kill three models and trigger a chain reaction the obliterates your entire horde (unless you're being super dumb).

Incredibly sensible rule.

It's really not this simple once you start getting into tables with terrain and enemy models on them. It absolutely doesn't "just stop conga lining." Put some models on large bases on a table and start fiddling around, you'll see how much this can muck up movement of 6-model units on large bases. 60mm bases in particular are really screwed - even putting 6 models in a straight line base-to-base doesn't keep them in coherency because 60mm is bigger than 2". This severely limits your movement options with these units, for no real reason.

I agree it's less of a problem for true horde units on smaller bases, though it will still result in weird situations there too where you aren't able to make legitimate, non-conga-line moves you ought to be able to make.

It's a (small) stealth nerf to Centurions. Given that the now have to clump AND engagement range appears to be just 1" it means it will be hard to have 6 of them fighting.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 kodos wrote:
So Hordes are not auto-killed by Moral tests any more but removed from the table by unit coherency check

Only if you play them as congalines.

I feel like hordes aren't dead, but the carpet of bodies being congalined back to single models to get a buff is dead. Hordes look like they'll work better in power pairs with HQs but that's just an assumption.

Not lines, but removing 10 models out of 30 + loses from moral (and yes, with those rules it is really important to not just roll X dice and remove as you wish) can be enough to have nothing left (nothing as <5 models)

 bullyboy wrote:
So when is this coherency check taken?

Moral phase.

 bullyboy wrote:
So when is this coherency check taken?

end of moral phase

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Not sure I like the coherency change.
I get that it solves conga lines, but moving hordes around just got a lot more finicky.

Say you have a unit of 30 orks. With the new change, you now have to make sure that every orks is within 2" of 2 more orks, or else you will take casualties.

This means that every time you move them, you have to do a head count and measure to make sure that you aren't going to take extra losses at the end of the phase.

I know the community is known for being a bit not sensible, but this should really be a common sense implementation of these rules. If you're dudes are most clumped up and one dude is 2.1" from the second guy in his squad, only an absolute burk would try to enforce it.

Sadly, this rule is a needed kneejerk to people gaming the system. Hordes will just need to stay clumped up, that's the long and short of it. Hopefully we'll see more movement trays being used for them now.