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 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Apparently it's in the same book as the points costs, so you get it either way. But even if it wasn't, I find it hard to believe they're using totally different missions for tournaments as for all other competitive play.

To bad:

The Grand Tournament 2020 Mission pack is … well, packed with new missions, alongside guidance for running and playing in tournaments, special Secondary Objectives, and loads more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
The TS faction focus also mentions that psykers can no longer cast psychic powers if they fall back.

Not true. That's Psychic Actions.

The article explicitly says:

“Psykers can no longer manifest powers after falling back.”

Yeah, it's both psychic actions and powers.

The limitation on powers is kinda weird with how it interacts with stuff like harles that can literally now do everything after falling back except psychic powers. Hopefully that gets a day-1 FAQ so your shadowseer doesn't have to stay behind while everyone else jumps off somewhere else if he wants to be able to cast any powers. Otherwise it's just yet another reason to bubble-wrap him so it's impossible to get him engaged in combat.

So I made a spreadsheet of the points so far and averaged out the total point differential across all models(minus wargear) and it came out to about a 19% increase across the board.

HOWEVER, a good chunk of this is due to some massive outliers where a lot of a units cost was moved from their weapons to their bodies (i.e. Plasma inceptors increased 60% but their gun decreased by 15 points so they actually end up being 15% CHEAPER than they were.

With the majority of weapons decreasing in price, in some cases very significantly, I would say that on the whole you're likely only going to be seeing about a 10% increase in the points across most lists.

You also have equipment that isn't shown here that I would bet became cheaper or free as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see Grav Chutes and CamoCloaks become free, just based on the way eliminators and scouts changed.

Centurion Devs most common loadouts only went up between 10-15%, Repulsor Executioner only went up about 10%, Suppressors went up 3%, The Invictor went up 25% for some reason. So glad I have 3 of those. Flamer Aggressors went up 15% Assault Centurions got hosed at a 34% increase,

Almost across the board Plasma saw a cost reduction. Combi-weapons were normalized which is nice for everything except Combi-Flamers who went UP despite already being the worst combi-weapon.

Heavy Bolters and multimeltas got hosed, especially on vehicles. RIP to Sisters who have mandatory HBs on their vehicles. Taking either of these was already a last resort option, now you'll never see them voluntarily again.

Lascannon went down which is BS with MM going up. In fact, with Lascannons at 15, I can't see a good reason to ever run a basic meltagun on troops unless you're an army that doesn't have lascannons.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

I'm getting either the box or the book and my buddy is getting the field manual whatever and we'll hack through the new edition together. I wonder if it will come with a digital copy like they said with codexes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:


But here, it just seems a bit shameless to charge people for updating points costs when you're already charging them for the new rules. How are the updated points costs for 9th edition not a fundamental part of the new rules for 9th edition?

It definitely would have been nice to see points be free at the start. It begs the question if the chapter approved will be in June now or if we'll get another in December.

Seeing lascannons go down while mutli-meltas went up (for the vehicle version, I think they went down by 2 points for infantry?) is what makes me think that leak is a fake. Even I am not cynical enough to think that GW would actually do something that pants-on-head silly. Everyone already knew MMs were terrible compared to lascannons, and this doubles down on that by making them even worse.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So I was 100% right about 9th actually being Warhammer 40,000: Tournament Edition.

What did you expect, with all the highly-lauded input they got from tournament organizers on how this game should be played?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It definitely would have been nice to see points be free at the start. It begs the question if the chapter approved will be in June now or if we'll get another in December.

Both the points and the scenarios should be in the rule book. There is no need to add to the rules or update them the same day you release them.
It's just bad practice.

ERJAK wrote:
So I made a spreadsheet of the points so far and averaged out the total point differential across all models(minus wargear) and it came out to about a 19% increase across the board.

HOWEVER, a good chunk of this is due to some massive outliers where a lot of a units cost was moved from their weapons to their bodies (i.e. Plasma inceptors increased 60% but their gun decreased by 15 points so they actually end up being 15% CHEAPER than they were.

With the majority of weapons decreasing in price, in some cases very significantly, I would say that on the whole you're likely only going to be seeing about a 10% increase in the points across most lists.

You also have equipment that isn't shown here that I would bet became cheaper or free as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see Grav Chutes and CamoCloaks become free, just based on the way eliminators and scouts changed.

Centurion Devs most common loadouts only went up between 10-15%, Repulsor Executioner only went up about 10%, Suppressors went up 3%, The Invictor went up 25% for some reason. So glad I have 3 of those. Flamer Aggressors went up 15% Assault Centurions got hosed at a 34% increase,

Almost across the board Plasma saw a cost reduction. Combi-weapons were normalized which is nice for everything except Combi-Flamers who went UP despite already being the worst combi-weapon.

Heavy Bolters and multimeltas got hosed, especially on vehicles. RIP to Sisters who have mandatory HBs on their vehicles. Taking either of these was already a last resort option, now you'll never see them voluntarily again.

Lascannon went down which is BS with MM going up. In fact, with Lascannons at 15, I can't see a good reason to ever run a basic meltagun on troops unless you're an army that doesn't have lascannons.

Thanks for doing that. This was my gut feeling. Bodies up and weapons down. I'm miffed they didn't leak melee weapons - that's the real interesting part.

I feel like Tac Marines (and Scouts) got murdered. You'd have to take special weapons now to make them worthwhile.

 Tyran wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Not true. That's Psychic Actions.

This edition presents some new challenges and opportunities now that Psykers can no longer manifest powers after Falling Back. While not as concerning to us as it may be to some – after all, a Daemon Prince can handle itself in combat, and the Black Staff of Ahriman isn’t just for show – it’s important to know that you’ll need to properly protect your Characters when the need for their powers outweighs their ability to scrap. If you don’t think your Sorcerers are up for the fight, you’ll want them safely behind a line of devoted bodyguards to ensure your Psychic phase isn’t disrupted.

That's my bad then. Really need to stop having my eyes glaze over when I read those faction focus articles.

dhallnet wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It definitely would have been nice to see points be free at the start. It begs the question if the chapter approved will be in June now or if we'll get another in December.

Both the points and the scenarios should be in the rule book. There is no need to add to the rules or update them the same day you release them.
It's just bad practice.

Separate is ok for me. Gives them more time to adjust rather than forcing it with the print run of the big book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 puma713 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So I was 100% right about 9th actually being Warhammer 40,000: Tournament Edition.

What did you expect, with all the highly-lauded input they got from tournament organizers on how this game should be played?

Umm. Crusade?

It's not a coincidence that both non-primaris troops choices got seriously hosed in the points department. This is Phase II of the Primaris Project, where they start obsoleting all the Oldmarine choices by making the Primaris ones better in every way. To do that you gotta make them unattractive in points as well as stats.

Primaris was intended from the start to completely replace the Marine line and make everybody rebuy their Marine armies. They couldn't do that all in one edition because of the uproar, but now that they got people used to the idea in 8th, 9th is where they really start the full-scale replacement project.

ERJAK wrote:
So I made a spreadsheet of the points so far and averaged out the total point differential across all models(minus wargear) and it came out to about a 19% increase across the board.

HOWEVER, a good chunk of this is due to some massive outliers where a lot of a units cost was moved from their weapons to their bodies (i.e. Plasma inceptors increased 60% but their gun decreased by 15 points so they actually end up being 15% CHEAPER than they were.

With the majority of weapons decreasing in price, in some cases very significantly, I would say that on the whole you're likely only going to be seeing about a 10% increase in the points across most lists.

You also have equipment that isn't shown here that I would bet became cheaper or free as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see Grav Chutes and CamoCloaks become free, just based on the way eliminators and scouts changed.

Centurion Devs most common loadouts only went up between 10-15%, Repulsor Executioner only went up about 10%, Suppressors went up 3%, The Invictor went up 25% for some reason. So glad I have 3 of those. Flamer Aggressors went up 15% Assault Centurions got hosed at a 34% increase,

Almost across the board Plasma saw a cost reduction. Combi-weapons were normalized which is nice for everything except Combi-Flamers who went UP despite already being the worst combi-weapon.

Heavy Bolters and multimeltas got hosed, especially on vehicles. RIP to Sisters who have mandatory HBs on their vehicles. Taking either of these was already a last resort option, now you'll never see them voluntarily again.

Lascannon went down which is BS with MM going up. In fact, with Lascannons at 15, I can't see a good reason to ever run a basic meltagun on troops unless you're an army that doesn't have lascannons.

It's worth noting that those are playtester points and the final numbers may be higher or lower than what we have hear.

They also baked weapons into points costs which is really stupid since it makes it harder to balance that stuff properly individually.i sincerely hope they didn't leave it that way in thee final release.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

Nah, you only need those missions for tournament play.

No. The game needs missions in order to play, it's a core element to WHY your playing the game.

Also, it's getting real old having points patched and sold for profit repeatedly. They literally just charged the community 6 months ago for the munitorum field manual. Now they are doing it again.

Whats worse is they are selling printed codexes with out of date points, which is bad enough, but they are charging for the current points.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

Nah, you only need those missions for tournament play.

No. The game needs missions in order to play, it's a core element to WHY your playing the game.

Also, it's getting real old having points patched and sold for profit repeatedly. They literally just charged the community 6 months ago for the munitorum field manual. Now they are doing it again.

Whats worse is they are selling printed codexes with out of date points, which is bad enough, but they are charging for the current points.

They specifically calles out the stuff in Chapter Approved as being for "competetive players".

Missions will still be in the core rules, but tournament missions and the like are seperate for people who play that subset of matched play.

Presumably the narrative missions will be in the main book. It's not really clear whether the matched play missions will be.

In any case, it doesn't really matter, since to play matched play (come on, nobody uses PL for matched play) you have to buy the other half of the same book anyway.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Presumably the narrative missions will be in the main book. It's not really clear whether the matched play missions will be.

In any case, it doesn't really matter, since to play matched play (come on, nobody uses PL for matched play) you have to buy the other half of the same book anyway.

Only true if GW is making tournament missions the only way to play matched.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

Nah, you only need those missions for tournament play.

No. The game needs missions in order to play, it's a core element to WHY your playing the game.

Also, it's getting real old having points patched and sold for profit repeatedly. They literally just charged the community 6 months ago for the munitorum field manual. Now they are doing it again.

Whats worse is they are selling printed codexes with out of date points, which is bad enough, but they are charging for the current points.

They specifically calles out the stuff in Chapter Approved as being for "competetive players".

Missions will still be in the core rules, but tournament missions and the like are seperate for people who play that subset of matched play.

Thats GW trying to define what a competitive player is.

It's still shady as Feth charging for the point adjustments upon release. I am fine with it so long as they release a digital update for free, but going by past precedent we can assume they won't.

Good luck finding a matched play game that uses PL instead of points, even if you are right that there will be two different sets of matched play missions, one in the main book and one in the CA book.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

I'm getting either the box or the book and my buddy is getting the field manual whatever and we'll hack through the new edition together. I wonder if it will come with a digital copy like they said with codexes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:


But here, it just seems a bit shameless to charge people for updating points costs when you're already charging them for the new rules. How are the updated points costs for 9th edition not a fundamental part of the new rules for 9th edition?

It definitely would have been nice to see points be free at the start. It begs the question if the chapter approved will be in June now or if we'll get another in December.

Considering how off the wall some of the point changes we've seen in the preview are (MM at 20 despite lascannon at goddam 15) We better get another one in december. Marines only went up maybe 10%, that's not a whole lot of wiggle room for them to increase other armies point values. Gak, a 3 point increase on a Basic SoB model (like what tac marines got) would be enough to put SoB out of the edition entirely if you combine it with the HB and MM bumps that are coming in. That'd be every competitive model in the army nerfed 20% minimum. A standard SoB squad with 2 stormbolters would go from 49 points to 66,a 34% increase compared to intercessors 15ish?. 10pt Meltaguns wouldn't be anywhere near enough to save us.

And while SoB is the only army I'm familiar with enough to give explicit examples, I bet there are plenty of other players seeing this and thinking "damn, if these 2-3 things eat a 20% nerf, that's all she wrote".

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

Nah, you only need those missions for tournament play.

No. The game needs missions in order to play, it's a core element to WHY your playing the game.

Also, it's getting real old having points patched and sold for profit repeatedly. They literally just charged the community 6 months ago for the munitorum field manual. Now they are doing it again.

Whats worse is they are selling printed codexes with out of date points, which is bad enough, but they are charging for the current points.

They specifically calles out the stuff in Chapter Approved as being for "competetive players".

Missions will still be in the core rules, but tournament missions and the like are seperate for people who play that subset of matched play.

Thats GW trying to define what a competitive player is.

It's still shady as Feth charging for the point adjustments upon release. I am fine with it so long as they release a digital update for free, but going by past precedent we can assume they won't.

Depends what happens witbh the app, it has points based list building, so if that's a subscription at a small fee I'd prefer that to buying chapter approved all the time.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

Nah, you only need those missions for tournament play.

No. The game needs missions in order to play, it's a core element to WHY your playing the game.

Also, it's getting real old having points patched and sold for profit repeatedly. They literally just charged the community 6 months ago for the munitorum field manual. Now they are doing it again.

Whats worse is they are selling printed codexes with out of date points, which is bad enough, but they are charging for the current points.

They specifically calles out the stuff in Chapter Approved as being for "competetive players".

Missions will still be in the core rules, but tournament missions and the like are seperate for people who play that subset of matched play.

Thats GW trying to define what a competitive player is.

It's still shady as Feth charging for the point adjustments upon release. I am fine with it so long as they release a digital update for free, but going by past precedent we can assume they won't.

Remember the Warhammer 40,000 App is coming on the 11th:

On the same day that the Warhammer 40,000 pre-orders go live, a new app will be launched alongside it, providing several cool features to help you, including a full matched play army builder. The new app will do a number of things to assist players with their games, but one of the most useful will be the ability to build army lists using the updated points values and Detachments. We’ll have more on the Warhammer 40,000 app soon, so watch this space!

Two points:

Am I right in thinking the Supreme command detachment would allow me to take Magnus in a Tzeentch demon army without messing with subfaction rules?
Or, say, Gulliman in a Custodes force? Or, potentially, Abbadon with Word Bearers (assuming he get Supreme Commander at some point)?

Secondly, does anyone else feel the disparity between lascannons and multimelta is caused by the perceived effects of the new terrain rules and smaller board sizes? GW may feel confident that the game will be played at much smaller ranges now. Whether it does or not remains to be seen, but that could be the thought process.

It's a pretty safe bet that whatever options GW gives you for buying their new stuff, there isn't going to be one that's a lot cheaper than the others. The idea that they're going to release a free digital points update, for example, is a bit fanciful. GW isn't in the business of free.

dhallnet wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It definitely would have been nice to see points be free at the start. It begs the question if the chapter approved will be in June now or if we'll get another in December.

Both the points and the scenarios should be in the rule book. There is no need to add to the rules or update them the same day you release them.
It's just bad practice.

Scenarios should be.

Points shouldn't be, with the way they're updated. You don't want to sell a core rulebook to someone in a year or two with the wrong point values.
Selling updates and errata is bad practice- they should be part of the free FAQ/errata process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

Nah, you only need those missions for tournament play.

No. The game needs missions in order to play, it's a core element to WHY your playing the game.

Also, it's getting real old having points patched and sold for profit repeatedly. They literally just charged the community 6 months ago for the munitorum field manual. Now they are doing it again.

Whats worse is they are selling printed codexes with out of date points, which is bad enough, but they are charging for the current points.

They specifically calles out the stuff in Chapter Approved as being for "competetive players".

Missions will still be in the core rules, but tournament missions and the like are seperate for people who play that subset of matched play.

Thats GW trying to define what a competitive player is.

It's still shady as Feth charging for the point adjustments upon release. I am fine with it so long as they release a digital update for free, but going by past precedent we can assume they won't.

Remember the Warhammer 40,000 App is coming on the 11th:

On the same day that the Warhammer 40,000 pre-orders go live, a new app will be launched alongside it, providing several cool features to help you, including a full matched play army builder. The new app will do a number of things to assist players with their games, but one of the most useful will be the ability to build army lists using the updated points values and Detachments. We’ll have more on the Warhammer 40,000 app soon, so watch this space!

By that logic they shouldn't be selling them at all, just putting a pdf on their website.

Yeah, the business of selling points updates has always been really questionable, which is why they nominally bundle them in with other stuff - even GW recognizes the PR hit that would come from directly selling points updates.

ERJAK wrote:


Considering how off the wall some of the point changes we've seen in the preview are (MM at 20 despite lascannon at goddam 15) We better get another one in december. Marines only went up maybe 10%, that's not a whole lot of wiggle room for them to increase other armies point values. Gak, a 3 point increase on a Basic SoB model (like what tac marines got) would be enough to put SoB out of the edition entirely if you combine it with the HB and MM bumps that are coming in. That'd be every competitive model in the army nerfed 20% minimum. A standard SoB squad with 2 stormbolters would go from 49 points to 66,a 34% increase compared to intercessors 15ish?. 10pt Meltaguns wouldn't be anywhere near enough to save us.

And while SoB is the only army I'm familiar with enough to give explicit examples, I bet there are plenty of other players seeing this and thinking "damn, if these 2-3 things eat a 20% nerf, that's all she wrote".

SoB are close enough to 9th that they may be ok. Necrons went up only 1 after all.

So, whilst being able to use Magnus and then get the battlion for free, i for one will probably never ever do this outside of a very fluffy, friendly list.

Magnus can put in work, but, i'd never use him as my warlord in a serious game.

I'm really hoping the basic marines are not so close in points to primaris marines.

Whilst it may work well to push Primaris within the codex, it's also going to have a detrimental knock on with CSM.
CSM points are always very close to basic marines, so if basic marines get overcosted, more than likely CSM will too and without even having the cool bonus's.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:


Considering how off the wall some of the point changes we've seen in the preview are (MM at 20 despite lascannon at goddam 15) We better get another one in december. Marines only went up maybe 10%, that's not a whole lot of wiggle room for them to increase other armies point values. Gak, a 3 point increase on a Basic SoB model (like what tac marines got) would be enough to put SoB out of the edition entirely if you combine it with the HB and MM bumps that are coming in. That'd be every competitive model in the army nerfed 20% minimum. A standard SoB squad with 2 stormbolters would go from 49 points to 66,a 34% increase compared to intercessors 15ish?. 10pt Meltaguns wouldn't be anywhere near enough to save us.

And while SoB is the only army I'm familiar with enough to give explicit examples, I bet there are plenty of other players seeing this and thinking "damn, if these 2-3 things eat a 20% nerf, that's all she wrote".

SoB are close enough to 9th that they may be ok. Necrons went up only 1 after all.

To be fair, if they only go up 1-2 they'll still be fine. Even though heavy bolters going up on vehicles sucks, some drops in meltas and flamers counter basic troops going up a little.

It's if they edge into that 3 range, even for Seraphim and Zephyrim who would see a lower overall percentage increase, it would still be a scary way to start an edition.

No idea why Stern is going up a month after release though, lol.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Pretty funny that it looks like you have to buy three books to get the new missions, rulebook, and points costs.

Looking at over $100 just to get the paper stuff you need to play the new edition competitively.

Nah, you only need those missions for tournament play.

No. The game needs missions in order to play, it's a core element to WHY your playing the game.

Also, it's getting real old having points patched and sold for profit repeatedly. They literally just charged the community 6 months ago for the munitorum field manual. Now they are doing it again.

Whats worse is they are selling printed codexes with out of date points, which is bad enough, but they are charging for the current points.

They specifically calles out the stuff in Chapter Approved as being for "competetive players".

Missions will still be in the core rules, but tournament missions and the like are seperate for people who play that subset of matched play.

Thats GW trying to define what a competitive player is.

It's still shady as Feth charging for the point adjustments upon release. I am fine with it so long as they release a digital update for free, but going by past precedent we can assume they won't.

Remember the Warhammer 40,000 App is coming on the 11th:

On the same day that the Warhammer 40,000 pre-orders go live, a new app will be launched alongside it, providing several cool features to help you, including a full matched play army builder. The new app will do a number of things to assist players with their games, but one of the most useful will be the ability to build army lists using the updated points values and Detachments. We’ll have more on the Warhammer 40,000 app soon, so watch this space!

Sure I approve and have advocated for an app for ages now. But an app definitely should not be a requirement either. The fact remains that GW sells codex that are now out of date, and with incorrect data to play their game. Points fixes should just be listed online for free. It's the reason I didn't bother with CA2019 this last year, I couldn't bring myself to buy points updates when GW is admitting they got them wrong and sold them to me to begin with. Points updates are no different then FAQ and only now do I realize it's probably only a matter of time before they start selling FAQ and Errata as well (points changes are errata so I guess they already do).