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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hmm... I always chose powers/relics/traits when I made the list. Figured they were enhancements to the list I was making, and thus were intrinsic (ie. if my plan was to X, and Warlord Trait Y enhances X, why would I want to re-pick at any time).

Plenty of stuff that are heavily dependant on matchups. I don't REALLY need melee defence boosting vs tau or frankly I don't need canoness to be even better blender vs tau because she will make mincemeat anyway. And one canoness I like is simple one with just brazier of holy flames upgrade. Cheap to give me rerolls and then either I have once per game d3 mortal wounds on 2+ OR if I'm against psychic heavy army I change brazier to relic version so I don't cause mortal wounds anymore but have instead 18" -1 to cast/deny aura for enemy. Now I have to choose do I want mortal wounds(rarely been of use) or relic(-1CP and 100% useless if opponent has zero psykers. It's only big help vs GK and TS).

Basically that model became just rather dubious usefullness.

I absolutely hated having to wait for my opponent to choose his gak, I think it’s wonderful to have everything written down at the list building stage.
Every single time saving change is good. Too bad 9th has a lot of time wasting changes too...

 Jidmah wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
This is a truly terrible argument: "you didn't get to use the stuff that made your faction viable much anyway before it was taken away from you, so who cares that you lost it?"

That makes it worse to have the carpet yanked out from underneath the faction, not better.

You don't even have data to prove it made your army viable, so just stop.

Either all armies should have the ability to tailor their list on the fly or none should have it.

Oh, ok, sorry. So your argument was: "you didn't use get to use the stuff that made your faction better but maybe still terrible before it was taken away from you, so who care that you lost it?" And you think that's a better argument? I think you are illustrating my point for me here without realizing it.

All armies should have complete unit lists too, but they don't. So they tried to make up for it by allowing more ability to customize the army you do have, since it's always going to be the same units no matter what. And then took that way in the new edition that came out a month later.

If you want all armies to be the same that's fine...but quins aren't the same. The whole point of the faction is that they aren't the same. But for that matter, I don't disagree - if your faction doesn't have enough interesting relics to make the option to swap them out worth doing, that's a problem with your faction's codex, and it should be addressed. The solution isn't to nerf everyone else down to your level of miserableness.

It sucks to have your army finally made into something with some variety a month before the end of the edition, then have much of that potential taken away you. If you can't see that, and you think the fact that it was taken away so quickly makes it less bad...I dunno what to tell you, I don't think I can help with that level of lack of ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

 Jidmah wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
This is a truly terrible argument: "you didn't get to use the stuff that made your faction viable much anyway before it was taken away from you, so who cares that you lost it?"

That makes it worse to have the carpet yanked out from underneath the faction, not better.

You don't even have data to prove it made your army viable, so just stop.

Either all armies should have the ability to tailor their list on the fly or none should have it.

So because some factions have bad relics/traits whole ability should be removed rather than say improve that faction?

Good logic...NOT!

And btw I have been switching around with traits and relics with orks. It's not as common but useful to them too. So your argument "orks can't switch" is also flat out wrong.

jivardi wrote:
But I get it, tournament players have a WAAC mentality even when they choose to play casually.

The funny thing is this is the complete opposite of what this does. Removing the ability to swap stuff means that you cannot choose fluffier, more interesting relics and warlord traits, unless you don't mind just losing some match-ups before they even start. In the old system, you could only take the power-gamer choices when it was necessary to counter a list that you couldn't beat otherwise, but if you didn't come up against such a list, you could switch things up and do fun stuff instead.

Now you're locked into the power-gaming choices because otherwise you just lose if you come up against a list you needed those choices to have a chance against.

The effect of this is to encourage everybody take the most powerful choices every game, even if they'd rather only do it in the 10% of games where they really have to...the exact opposite of what you seem to want to avoid.

Is it just me or is 9th just an attempt to prevent douche bags doing "gamey" BS?

Playing all of 8th with my mates and conga lines, flier blocking and tailoring lists with relics/warlord traits never came up once.

Mind you neither did tri-pointing buts thats just cos we must all be rubbish generals

At least with tanks and monsters firing in combat I might remember to shoot pistols too.

 Kinetochore wrote:
Is it just me or is 9th just an attempt to prevent douche bags doing "gamey" BS? .

if so GW has done a bad Job and added more gamy stuff than removed anyhing

a lot of people always say 40k is not meant for competitive games, and 9th is an attempt to prevent the competitive guys from moving over to other games

While I get what your saying I have to say due to the horrific inconsistencies in the approaches GW has taken to designing certain factions this is a "problem" for some Codex's and really changes nothing for others.

Some armies have essentially default relics/traits required yo make certaib units function hoever you can't take the relic without taking the bad version to fit the relic or trait too, so your committed to the relic or trait the minuit that unit is in your list.

Also i have to say it also made certain subfactions redundant entirely as people would just spall all the counter WLT & Relics.

E.G Tau Sept over watch on 5+, only ever got to use it against a guard player everyone else made it redundant by spamming ignore overwatch relics and WLT's and strategums so I can't change my trait but you get free reign to make my army wide bonus have 0 impact on the game. Felt really great for balance.

 Aaranis wrote:
What, you guys used to select relics, warlord traits and psychic powers just before the game ? That's list tailoring. No wonder it was a mess to balance if half the players played ITC house rules and tailored their list on the go lol

We always had everything chosen before you showed up at the club - wasted time otherwise.

tneva82 wrote:
So because some factions have bad relics/traits whole ability should be removed rather than say improve that faction?

Good logic...NOT!

So, to rephrase your argument, you think it's okay that some armies have an unfair advantage over all others for at least two years, since we know that is how long it takes GW to update all armies, correct?

And btw I have been switching around with traits and relics with orks. It's not as common but useful to them too. So your argument "orks can't switch" is also flat out wrong.

Oh, please don't try to tell me that switching out big killa boss against all-infantry army does anything remotely as noticable as bringing an anti-infantry or anti-psyker relic. Because that's bullgak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
This is a truly terrible argument: "you didn't get to use the stuff that made your faction viable much anyway before it was taken away from you, so who cares that you lost it?"

That makes it worse to have the carpet yanked out from underneath the faction, not better.

You don't even have data to prove it made your army viable, so just stop.

Either all armies should have the ability to tailor their list on the fly or none should have it.

Oh, ok, sorry. So your argument was: "you didn't use get to use the stuff that made your faction better but maybe still terrible before it was taken away from you, so who care that you lost it?" And you think that's a better argument? I think you are illustrating my point for me here without realizing it.

All armies should have complete unit lists too, but they don't. So they tried to make up for it by allowing more ability to customize the army you do have, since it's always going to be the same units no matter what. And then took that way in the new edition that came out a month later.

If you want all armies to be the same that's fine...but quins aren't the same. The whole point of the faction is that they aren't the same. But for that matter, I don't disagree - if your faction doesn't have enough interesting relics to make the option to swap them out worth doing, that's a problem with your faction's codex, and it should be addressed. The solution isn't to nerf everyone else down to your level of miserableness.

It sucks to have your army finally made into something with some variety a month before the end of the edition, then have much of that potential taken away you. If you can't see that, and you think the fact that it was taken away so quickly makes it less bad...I dunno what to tell you, I don't think I can help with that level of lack of ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

Nothing was taken away, all your options are still there. You just lost the ability to screw over an opponent after seeing his list, while he doesn't have the option.
Not to mention that harlequins should never have been a codex to begin with. If you chose Codex: One Datasheet as your army, having limited options is part of the deal. Of course, assuming that you aren't just using Harlequins as strawman to have a point at all.

My DG got their psychic awakening within a month of 9th, and were the least supported army until then. GW released bits of 9th which already invalidated one entire plague company, the detachment bonus and multiple stratagems before it even hit the shelves. Not a single one allows any pre-game tailoring, by the way.
Meanwhile, you are whining about how you have to decide which powerful rule to pick for your characters, because you can't possible win if you pick the wrong role or bring both.

The only thing you lost was the ability to exploit a loophole that was clearly not intended by GW.

Not to mention that harlequins should never have been a codex to begin with.

Harlequins were one of the first Codexes and have always had a great variety of unique units, weapons - many of which are no longer there.

Its not the same as the various Marine sub factions where increasingly outlandish and flanderised untis were created to give some faint justification for their super speical status and vast amount of resources lavished upn them at the expense of all other non Marine factions.

My DG got their codex within a month of 9th, and were the least supported army until then

Do you mean 8th?

Looks at the range of Sisters models at that point and laughs at your assertion.

No, I actually meant PA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not to mention that harlequins should never have been a codex to begin with.

Harlequins were one of the first Codexes and have always had a great variety of unique units, weapons - many of which are no longer there.

Harlequins were a single unit entry in the eldar codices until 7th edition.

So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

yeah can we please stop with the "dur that army shouldn't exist" BS. it's childish and insulting

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

Well as a T.Sons player, I would really prefer it if we were not a separate codex. All we got by switching to own codex was the Scarab Occult Terminators and the exalted sorcerers which nobody plays, then some bs imports from AoS that nobody wants, and the rest of the codex is generic gak from the CSM codex that we have no synergy with and nobody plays (generic battle tanks) and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

Meanwhile we are missing out on all kinds of special or heavy weapons, Discolords, smash lords, havocs, obliterators, possessed, basically everything that makes CSM (kind of) work.

Not all subfactions are ready to become their own codex, and it's better to aknowledge it rather than grab the subfaction flag and wave it angrily around.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

Well as a T.Sons player, I would really prefer it if we were not a separate codex. All we got by switching to own codex was the Scarab Occult Terminators and the exalted sorcerers which nobody plays, then some bs imports from AoS that nobody wants, and the rest of the codex is generic gak from the CSM codex that we have no synergy with and nobody plays (generic battle tanks) and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

Meanwhile we are missing out on all kinds of special or heavy weapons, Discolords, smash lords, havocs, obliterators, possessed, basically everything that makes CSM (kind of) work.

Not all subfactions are ready to become their own codex, and it's better to aknowledge it rather than grab the subfaction flag and wave it angrily around.

Not to nitpick but thousand sons shouldn't have obliterators or possessed, it's a bit hard to mutate a pile of dust. Fluffwise they were also all psychically active to some degree, I don't fancy having to balance psychic discolords.

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

Maybe not Single Squad but I wouldn't mind if DG were absorbed back into the CSM codex. Then maybe I could run Death Guard Oblits and whatnot. oooooh Death Guard Heldrake. That we be so frellin' cool.

I do wonder though if we'll see some consolidation of factions in 9th in one form or another. GW already did that with quite a few factions in AoS(Orruks, Ogors, CoS, Skaven, LoN, Gloomspite) so it wouldn't be unprecedented for GW to recombine factions.

Kinda feels(a hunch) like we might be entering the "supplemental" edition where all the sub-factions would be supplements to a standard codex like the SM one.

Well, most importantly, Thousand Sons shouldn't have Ahriman (and DG shouldn't have Typhus).

They are both their respective Primarchs Enemy No. 1, kinda split off doing their own renegade thing and/or hang out with the Black Legion.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

This is what annoys me with Death Guard. All the Nurgle Daemons don't have Death Guard type which means I'll have to run soup to run them which now even costs extra because of the new detachment system. Not like DG was a powerhouse codex.

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

The master of argument misrepresentation and strawmen strikes again! I never said that harlequins shouldn't exist. They just shouldn't exist in the way they are now, with two options to solve that problem. One is giving them a proper codex instead of that joke they have now. The other is giving them all the options of their parent faction.

DG have gotten a fully fledged out codex, and harlequins are what? A troops unit, a biker unit, a vehicle and a cast of support characters. Your average christmas battleforce has more unit variety than the entire harlequin codex.
If you actively decide to play an army that has no options, you don't get to complain about it afterwards. Splinter factions like this have the same problem in every game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, most importantly, Thousand Sons shouldn't have Ahriman (and DG shouldn't have Typhus).

They are both their respective Primarchs Enemy No. 1, kinda split off doing their own renegade thing and/or hang out with the Black Legion.

You might want to go read some novels on Typhus.

Dudeface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

Well as a T.Sons player, I would really prefer it if we were not a separate codex. All we got by switching to own codex was the Scarab Occult Terminators and the exalted sorcerers which nobody plays, then some bs imports from AoS that nobody wants, and the rest of the codex is generic gak from the CSM codex that we have no synergy with and nobody plays (generic battle tanks) and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

Meanwhile we are missing out on all kinds of special or heavy weapons, Discolords, smash lords, havocs, obliterators, possessed, basically everything that makes CSM (kind of) work.

Not all subfactions are ready to become their own codex, and it's better to aknowledge it rather than grab the subfaction flag and wave it angrily around.

Not to nitpick but thousand sons shouldn't have obliterators or possessed, it's a bit hard to mutate a pile of dust. Fluffwise they were also all psychically active to some degree, I don't fancy having to balance psychic discolords.

Yet we do have Chaos Spawns and helbrutes and whatever the freak Mutalith Vortex Beast is. And even with no mutated astartes, could still have bikers, raptors, havocs, chosen, dark apostles, master of possession, a million stuff. And not everything has to be psychic just because it says T.Sons on top. The Predators and Vindicators we can use at the moment are not psychic. Sure could do with a normal discolord or two if you ask me.

 Eldarsif wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

This is what annoys me with Death Guard. All the Nurgle Daemons don't have Death Guard type which means I'll have to run soup to run them which now even costs extra because of the new detachment system. Not like DG was a powerhouse codex.

You can summon them in quite efficiently when playing The Wretched though.

 Eldarsif wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

This is what annoys me with Death Guard. All the Nurgle Daemons don't have Death Guard type which means I'll have to run soup to run them which now even costs extra because of the new detachment system. Not like DG was a powerhouse codex.

Or summon them, though 2CP for a patrol isn't crazy expensive.

 Tastyfish wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

This is what annoys me with Death Guard. All the Nurgle Daemons don't have Death Guard type which means I'll have to run soup to run them which now even costs extra because of the new detachment system. Not like DG was a powerhouse codex.

Or summon them, though 2CP for a patrol isn't crazy expensive.

We can already summon them anyways, and we can also summon all other kinds of god specific daemons that are not present in the codex. There was literally no reason to put them in the codex (and even do half assed job at that, horrors and flamers are in the entry, exalted flamers and heralds are not), oither than fill up a mandatory minimum of units, because the bottom truth is that some armies just don't have enough to be an autonomous codex.

That gak is true about Sons, DG, Harlequins, Custodes and probably more subfactions. There's a reason these armies never top tournaments, and it's that they are just not enough.


EDIT: And we're now entering an edition where armies are punished for souping, and suddenly my 12 units codex has to compete one on one with Astartes 70 units codex.

Good times ahead.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

Well as a T.Sons player, I would really prefer it if we were not a separate codex. All we got by switching to own codex was the Scarab Occult Terminators and the exalted sorcerers which nobody plays, then some bs imports from AoS that nobody wants, and the rest of the codex is generic gak from the CSM codex that we have no synergy with and nobody plays (generic battle tanks) and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

Meanwhile we are missing out on all kinds of special or heavy weapons, Discolords, smash lords, havocs, obliterators, possessed, basically everything that makes CSM (kind of) work.

Not all subfactions are ready to become their own codex, and it's better to aknowledge it rather than grab the subfaction flag and wave it angrily around.

Not to nitpick but thousand sons shouldn't have obliterators or possessed, it's a bit hard to mutate a pile of dust. Fluffwise they were also all psychically active to some degree, I don't fancy having to balance psychic discolords.

Yet we do have Chaos Spawns and helbrutes and whatever the freak Mutalith Vortex Beast is. And even with no mutated astartes, could still have bikers, raptors, havocs, chosen, dark apostles, master of possession, a million stuff. And not everything has to be psychic just because it says T.Sons on top. The Predators and Vindicators we can use at the moment are not psychic. Sure could do with a normal discolord or two if you ask me.

Spawns are when the changes overcome sorcerers or a failed ascension to daemonhood, they shouldn't have helbrutes but should have dreanoughts imo. the vortex beast is exactly that - a native beast to the planet of sorcerers. The entire fluff for thousand sons as a legion is that they're all psychic or made of dust. The vehicles aren't driven by sorcerers - not psychic, there's a living person on a disco lord = psyker.

Hand waving stuff away because you want rules from other books doesn't fit the factions narrative, it's the inherent danger of being split out. If they never received their own book, you would have had 1 psychic discipline to pick from total and until psychic awakening had 1 warlord trait, relic and strat like the other legions.

I want to run them as a useful unit, not as summonable chaff for CP.

I just want them to do this proper like they did in AoS. Blades of Khorne has Khorne Daemons and Mortals and both can share keywords and get faction traits and whatnot. The same rule should apply to the special Chaos forces in 40k. Currently AoS has a superior Chaos God approach compared to 40k.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I want to run them as a useful unit, not as summonable chaff for CP.

I just want them to do this proper like they did in AoS. Blades of Khorne has Khorne Daemons and Mortals and both can share keywords and get faction traits and whatnot. The same rule should apply to the special Chaos forces in 40k. Currently AoS has a superior Chaos God approach compared to 40k.

They began doing it with daemonkin, I'm not 100% sure why they went back on themselves. It would also end this asking for generic CSM units in the specialist books.

Dudeface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

Well as a T.Sons player, I would really prefer it if we were not a separate codex. All we got by switching to own codex was the Scarab Occult Terminators and the exalted sorcerers which nobody plays, then some bs imports from AoS that nobody wants, and the rest of the codex is generic gak from the CSM codex that we have no synergy with and nobody plays (generic battle tanks) and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

Meanwhile we are missing out on all kinds of special or heavy weapons, Discolords, smash lords, havocs, obliterators, possessed, basically everything that makes CSM (kind of) work.

Not all subfactions are ready to become their own codex, and it's better to aknowledge it rather than grab the subfaction flag and wave it angrily around.

Not to nitpick but thousand sons shouldn't have obliterators or possessed, it's a bit hard to mutate a pile of dust. Fluffwise they were also all psychically active to some degree, I don't fancy having to balance psychic discolords.

Yet we do have Chaos Spawns and helbrutes and whatever the freak Mutalith Vortex Beast is. And even with no mutated astartes, could still have bikers, raptors, havocs, chosen, dark apostles, master of possession, a million stuff. And not everything has to be psychic just because it says T.Sons on top. The Predators and Vindicators we can use at the moment are not psychic. Sure could do with a normal discolord or two if you ask me.

Spawns are when the changes overcome sorcerers or a failed ascension to daemonhood, they shouldn't have helbrutes but should have dreanoughts imo. the vortex beast is exactly that - a native beast to the planet of sorcerers. The entire fluff for thousand sons as a legion is that they're all psychic or made of dust. The vehicles aren't driven by sorcerers - not psychic, there's a living person on a disco lord = psyker.

Hand waving stuff away because you want rules from other books doesn't fit the factions narrative, it's the inherent danger of being split out. If they never received their own book, you would have had 1 psychic discipline to pick from total and until psychic awakening had 1 warlord trait, relic and strat like the other legions.

At least they could show some competency when doing it. Right now, Scarabs are literally point for point 2 rubrics stacked together. Exalted sorcerers are worse than Ahriman/DPs and more expensive than sorcerers, with no idea wtf to do on the table. Magnus is DoA and since 9th we can't even field him properly (either pay 3CP and lose all T.Sons benefits, or play in SupCom and lose all Cult benefits from PA), and that's where the flavor of the codex ends. Unless you want to tell me that tzaangors were inherently part of the Thousand Sons lore, maybe they were roaming around the fields of Prospero eating grass and everything as goats, then the Rubric transformed them into...

No. They half assed the codex. You can't argue "Hand waving stuff away because you want rules from other books doesn't fit the factions narrative" when I suddenly have goatmen and when MORE THAN HALF the entries in the codex come from the CSM codex anyways.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So i say orks shouldn't be own army. It works both ways. You say others factions shouldn't exists, other can wish yours go away.

Dg in particular. That used to be 1 unit. Even less than harlequins. Who had multiple entries in 2nd ed. Great harlequins, shadow seer, solitaire, mimics...lot more than 1 entry. More than death guard.

Remove death guard! Back to single squad in csm with you!

Well as a T.Sons player, I would really prefer it if we were not a separate codex. All we got by switching to own codex was the Scarab Occult Terminators and the exalted sorcerers which nobody plays, then some bs imports from AoS that nobody wants, and the rest of the codex is generic gak from the CSM codex that we have no synergy with and nobody plays (generic battle tanks) and some entries on chaos daemon units that we can't even field because they don't have the appropriate keywords, and they are only there to meet the minimum number of pages.

Meanwhile we are missing out on all kinds of special or heavy weapons, Discolords, smash lords, havocs, obliterators, possessed, basically everything that makes CSM (kind of) work.

Not all subfactions are ready to become their own codex, and it's better to aknowledge it rather than grab the subfaction flag and wave it angrily around.

Not to nitpick but thousand sons shouldn't have obliterators or possessed, it's a bit hard to mutate a pile of dust. Fluffwise they were also all psychically active to some degree, I don't fancy having to balance psychic discolords.

Yet we do have Chaos Spawns and helbrutes and whatever the freak Mutalith Vortex Beast is. And even with no mutated astartes, could still have bikers, raptors, havocs, chosen, dark apostles, master of possession, a million stuff. And not everything has to be psychic just because it says T.Sons on top. The Predators and Vindicators we can use at the moment are not psychic. Sure could do with a normal discolord or two if you ask me.

Spawns are when the changes overcome sorcerers or a failed ascension to daemonhood, they shouldn't have helbrutes but should have dreanoughts imo. the vortex beast is exactly that - a native beast to the planet of sorcerers. The entire fluff for thousand sons as a legion is that they're all psychic or made of dust. The vehicles aren't driven by sorcerers - not psychic, there's a living person on a disco lord = psyker.

Hand waving stuff away because you want rules from other books doesn't fit the factions narrative, it's the inherent danger of being split out. If they never received their own book, you would have had 1 psychic discipline to pick from total and until psychic awakening had 1 warlord trait, relic and strat like the other legions.

At least they could show some competency when doing it. Right now, Scarabs are literally point for point 2 rubrics stacked together. Exalted sorcerers are worse than Ahriman/DPs and more expensive than sorcerers, with no idea wtf to do on the table. Magnus is DoA and since 9th we can't even field him properly (either pay 3CP and lose all T.Sons benefits, or play in SupCom and lose all Cult benefits from PA), and that's where the flavor of the codex ends. Unless you want to tell me that tzaangors were inherently part of the Thousand Sons lore, maybe they were roaming around the fields of Prospero eating grass and everything as goats, then the Rubric transformed them into...

No. They half assed the codex. You can't argue "Hand waving stuff away because you want rules from other books doesn't fit the factions narrative" when I suddenly have goatmen and when MORE THAN HALF the entries in the codex come from the CSM codex anyways.

Ofc they half assed the codex, they didn't have capacity to make enough new kits clearly and worked with what they could. The tzaangors fluff wise are the native inhabitants of the planet of sorcerers. I'm not a thousand sons player - you should be telling me this stuff not the other way round. But you're confusing rules issues (including magnus) vs design scope (not having enough new units). End of the story is people need to stop going "I wanted the really good psychic phase but I also want all the toys for that codex" and embrace that they have their own codex with expanded rules, units and strats that wouldn't exist otherwise, they'll get fleshed out in the future.

Never the less, to drag it back on topic, the new CP costs for other detachments mean a patrol to get some chaos marine disco lords in a price possibly worth paying if you wanted to do that.

I wonder how the Shadow Assignment stratagem Assassins get works with the new Roster rules.

Do you need to mark it down on your Roster since it's used "before the battle begins"? It doesn't upgrade a unit, but is it treated the same? If so, when do you select the Assassin you're swapping to? Do you have to write that on your list, defeating the point of the stratagem in the first place?

I'm assuming no and it just works as current, but I foresee a bunch of confusion over it if the Day 1 FaQ doesn't clarify it.