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yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop titans again (paraphrasing): 9th is a shooting edition, all these changes that seem to nerf melee absolutely do, all our testing has come up with the result that shooting is hugely buffed and melee is boned
Also, you have to choose warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, etc on your datasheet, before you see your opponent's army. No customization at all any more of any kind. Everything needs to be done before on your army list.
This is a huge change, and a really negative one in my opinion. It really sucks having to choose relics and powers before you know the match-up. I didn't even realize this myself looking at the rules. What a huge bummer, and the result is going to be far more homogenization as people will go for safe choices instead of interesting ones.
Yikes. I guess that is the tournament rules?
I'm ok with relics. Marines get abusive with that gak. Psychic powers makes me a little sad, but I have a swap out. It may well force more coherent lists instead of tailoring to the opponent. ALSO - it saves a ton of time.
It takes out a huge part of the game, and a major opportunity to level the playing field between lists that aren't matched well. This will just increase the chances of getting a bad match-up and being able to do nothing about it. Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
Hmm... I always chose powers/relics/traits when I made the list. Figured they were enhancements to the list I was making, and thus were intrinsic (ie. if my plan was to X, and Warlord Trait Y enhances X, why would I want to re-pick at any time).
Didn't realise that wasn't the norm.
yukishiro1 wrote: Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
It's ok though. Just make sure your army is painted and there's isn't for an easy extra 10 points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 01:45:01
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop titans again (paraphrasing): 9th is a shooting edition, all these changes that seem to nerf melee absolutely do, all our testing has come up with the result that shooting is hugely buffed and melee is boned
Also, you have to choose warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, etc on your datasheet, before you see your opponent's army. No customization at all any more of any kind. Everything needs to be done before on your army list.
This is a huge change, and a really negative one in my opinion. It really sucks having to choose relics and powers before you know the match-up. I didn't even realize this myself looking at the rules. What a huge bummer, and the result is going to be far more homogenization as people will go for safe choices instead of interesting ones.
Yikes. I guess that is the tournament rules?
I'm ok with relics. Marines get abusive with that gak. Psychic powers makes me a little sad, but I have a swap out. It may well force more coherent lists instead of tailoring to the opponent. ALSO - it saves a ton of time.
It takes out a huge part of the game, and a major opportunity to level the playing field between lists that aren't matched well. This will just increase the chances of getting a bad match-up and being able to do nothing about it. Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... I always chose powers/relics/traits when I made the list. Figured they were enhancements to the list I was making, and thus were intrinsic (ie. if my plan was to X, and Warlord Trait Y enhances X, why would I want to re-pick at any time).
Didn't realise that wasn't the norm.
yukishiro1 wrote: Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
It's ok though. Just make sure your army is painted and there's isn't for an easy extra 10 points.
The common one was to use thw strategum to buy extra relics like oh you brought choas I'll spend 1CP for Relic of lost Cadia because get wrecked.
It takes out a huge part of the game, and a major opportunity to level the playing field between lists that aren't matched well. This will just increase the chances of getting a bad match-up and being able to do nothing about it. Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
I would care less if I hadn't been on the receiving end of some of the shenanigans that can come from this where peopme suddenly pick the most broken combo of traits and relics to hard counter your army.
Thats definataly not fun as unlike their traits and relics I can't just up and change my list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/03 01:51:03
punisher357 wrote: Does anyone else like the Necron terrain better without the rock/black stone/material covering all the mechanical techmo-metal-necron parts? I'm a bigger fan without the stone faces.
Warning Opinion ahead:
Spoiler:
To be honest, I'm getting really tired of Space Marines getting exceptions to everything. I don't have a problem making them powerful and tough, but it bugs me that they get exemptions from things that don't have exemptions (i.e. Mortal Wounds). "Hey everyone, new wound type that you get no saves against. Well, unless you're space marines, then you do."
I get that they're the protagonists of the saga, so I'd be fine with them getting an edge. The problem is when they make the edge such a slap in the face to everyone else. It causes everything to escalate and ramp up and then the scale of the game, in multiple areas, gets out of whack. Before anyone says, "Yeah, GW has always done that", I know. They've always done a lot of things.
Just stating my perspective. *Rant Over*
Plenty factions have access to special abilities that offer saves against Mortal Wounds. Are you new to 40K ? Have you skipped the whole 8th edition ?
Only Marines can drop on Turn 1.
Only Marines can reroll all hits, not just 1's.
Only Marines can block deepstrike units from being able to drop within charge range.
There are plenty of cases where Marines straight up ignore the game just because they can.
Also most of those other factions don't have wargear that juts flat up gives you a save against any MW.
Selfcontrol : Nope. Not new. I just don't have my head buried. Other armies/factions may have a few exceptions and edges, but not all of them rolled into a single package. topaxygouroun beat me to the examples.
Ice_can Bingo. The only people I've met that argue about the advantages Space marines are given are a handful of space marine players. They'll argue until the sun burns out that there's nothing skewed, nothing special.
Like I said, I get that they're the protagonists and I'm fine with them getting some goodies. When it stacks too high, then GW tosses a bunch of stuff on another faction to bring sales up. Before long, it's hard to balance the game, which is a huge feat as it is.
Regardless of all that, I'm excited and optimistic about 9th and I know I'll have a blast! I'm really looking forward to some good games!
Yeah but the upside of that is nobody's ever going to take that stuff any more because it's too much of a risk.
You're going to see a huge homogenization of what traits, relics, powers etc people take, because they're never gonna be able to do something funky and fun for a specific match-up because they have to play it safe and take the most overall useful choice instead. It's just another step towards forcing everyone to run their army the same way every game, and that feels bad and boring.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/03 01:53:35
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah but the upside of that is nobody's ever going to take that stuff any more because it's too much of a risk.
You're going to see a huge homogenization of what traits, relics, powers etc people take, because they're never gonna be able to do something funky and fun for a specific match-up because they have to play it safe and take the most overall useful choice instead. It's just another step towards forcing everyone to run their army the same way every game, and that feels bad and boring.
You say balanced and boring I say Take All Comers.
No more I'll skip out on X or Y because I can just take the MW relic if I meet army A, or the Reroll all wounds rlic agaisnt amy B.
Taking away flexibility doesn't make it TAC, it makes it less TAC. It just means you have to gravitate towards the most obviously useful choice and take that every time. It's going to result in more skew, not less. That flexibility was a large part of making lists capable of being more TAC, particularly lists with limited basic options, like say quins. "Every player with this list takes these traits and relics because they're the most universally useful" doesn't produce TAC, it produces skew towards those particular choices, and reduces overall variety in the game as well. You can't experiment any more; you gotta take the safe pick so you don't lose before the game even starts.
The handful of relics and traits that were good against specific factions, if they were a problem, should have just been addressed, rather than everyone losing one of the major tactical parts of the game.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 02:07:45
For some armies it's not that much of a big deal, mostly the xenos who have a more limited selection and tend to have to build their lists around those selections. Where as most imperial factions have a wealth of options and if using soup that opens it up even further. Ask an ork who they're going to use as their warlord. If they say it's not going to be the SSAG mek with big killa boss then you can say "Oh so it's going to be killa klaw biker boss then?" Where as with imperium you could have CP regen officer, grudge tank commander, flying smashcaptain, invul biker custodies and more in just the one army all chosen at the start of the game with no need to shuffle the list.
Kind of feels like it levels the playing field a bit right?
Actually, have we even gotten it set in stone that you have to choose your chapter equivalent in the list writing stage? As long as you don't choose relics or characters that lock you into one or another someone could be super cheeky and say, yup this match i'm raven guard, next match i'm ironhands etc etc.
Yes, your sub-faction keyword has to be on the list too.
I don't think it really does level the playing field, not in a meaningful way - I mean, if you just said everyone only gets one HQ choice per army, that'd level the playing field too in a certain sense, but it wouldn't be a good leveling. It just takes away an opportunity to do something fun and different in a match-up where you don't absolutely need the safest choice to not just lose the game.
To take a concrete example: say you have a death jester. In 8th, you could choose what pivotal role you wanted, depending on the army. You'd usually pick the one to suppress overwatch, because in a match-up where overwatch is important, you just lose if you don't have overwatch suppression. But at least you had the option against other lists to try out some of the other options.
In 9th, everyone's just going to take the overwatch suppression no matter what, because if you don't, and you come up against an army that has good overwatch, you just can't do anything. So you're never, ever going to see those other pivotal roles, at least not in a list with only one DJ. That's sad. It's less diversity in the game, and less interesting both to play with and play against.
Or for relics, in 8th, you could pick whether to put the rose on your solitaire, or the sniper rifle on your DJ, or even some of the really wacky options if you wanted to. This wasn't particularly powerful; neither option was such a strong "tech" that it really countered anything, but it made for some much-needed variety in a list that has virtually no variety in its unit choices. But now, you gotta just take one or the other, and stick with it. No more changing things up to keep them fresh, not without redoing your list.
What little variety was in the quins codex was 100% in the warlord traits, relics, and roles. Now that variety is pretty much all gone, unless you're ok with probably just losing certain matchups before the game even starts. It's hard not to see that as a major loss of interest and variety in the game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 02:18:19
It takes out a huge part of the game, and a major opportunity to level the playing field between lists that aren't matched well. This will just increase the chances of getting a bad match-up and being able to do nothing about it. Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
I don't think it is huge - though I do appreciate the issue it creates. Realistically I would have a core set of spells that I always used. Then I occasionally swapped out for Gift and/or Gateway if my opponent had the setup to make it work.
This may also be why smite could be unlimited.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah but the upside of that is nobody's ever going to take that stuff any more because it's too much of a risk.
You're going to see a huge homogenization of what traits, relics, powers etc people take, because they're never gonna be able to do something funky and fun for a specific match-up because they have to play it safe and take the most overall useful choice instead. It's just another step towards forcing everyone to run their army the same way every game, and that feels bad and boring.
I think one hidden benefit of this is collecting information for what people do and do not use and applying that to balance decisions. To use that information may not have changed much anyway. We got to see the first relic sometimes, but no idea what happened after that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 02:17:44
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... I always chose powers/relics/traits when I made the list. Figured they were enhancements to the list I was making, and thus were intrinsic (ie. if my plan was to X, and Warlord Trait Y enhances X, why would I want to re-pick at any time).
Didn't realise that wasn't the norm.
Same.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
And here is me, coming back from a version of the game where powers weer rolled of on a random table or drawn from a deck ... and what's a relic? Feels like this game is rather cyclical in random vs. consistency.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/03 03:45:49
It takes out a huge part of the game, and a major opportunity to level the playing field between lists that aren't matched well. This will just increase the chances of getting a bad match-up and being able to do nothing about it. Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
I don't think it is huge - though I do appreciate the issue it creates. Realistically I would have a core set of spells that I always used. Then I occasionally swapped out for Gift and/or Gateway if my opponent had the setup to make it work.
This may also be why smite could be unlimited.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah but the upside of that is nobody's ever going to take that stuff any more because it's too much of a risk.
You're going to see a huge homogenization of what traits, relics, powers etc people take, because they're never gonna be able to do something funky and fun for a specific match-up because they have to play it safe and take the most overall useful choice instead. It's just another step towards forcing everyone to run their army the same way every game, and that feels bad and boring.
I think one hidden benefit of this is collecting information for what people do and do not use and applying that to balance decisions. To use that information may not have changed much anyway. We got to see the first relic sometimes, but no idea what happened after that.
Aye.
It also makes CSM armies with that strategem to spend CP to swap out powers realtime more impactful.
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop titans again (paraphrasing): 9th is a shooting edition, all these changes that seem to nerf melee absolutely do, all our testing has come up with the result that shooting is hugely buffed and melee is boned
Also, you have to choose warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, etc on your datasheet, before you see your opponent's army. No customization at all any more of any kind. Everything needs to be done before on your army list.
This is a huge change, and a really negative one in my opinion. It really sucks having to choose relics and powers before you know the match-up. I didn't even realize this myself looking at the rules. What a huge bummer, and the result is going to be far more homogenization as people will go for safe choices instead of interesting ones.
Yikes. I guess that is the tournament rules?
I'm ok with relics. Marines get abusive with that gak. Psychic powers makes me a little sad, but I have a swap out. It may well force more coherent lists instead of tailoring to the opponent. ALSO - it saves a ton of time.
It takes out a huge part of the game, and a major opportunity to level the playing field between lists that aren't matched well. This will just increase the chances of getting a bad match-up and being able to do nothing about it. Less strategy, more "my list just can't beat your list." Both feels bad moments, IMO. You could tell they were really bummed about it too, barely even trying to put a brave face on it.
I disagree; I feel it pushes listbuilding towards designing for multiple situations and putting out a well-rounded force instead of building around fotm knowing one can simply take some tailored options should they go up against a specific force they could not otherwise handle. Further, it does not help even things out because it goes both ways; the overpowered army can tailor to fight their underpowered opponent and make the margin even worse. I feel this is a positive change and I like it.
So after everything that has been shown off, and god knows else is coming for Marines on top of this whole mess I've decided to chill out on my Templar project for a while and focus on other stuff I like. Namely GSC and Iyanden.
Still getting at least one of those boxes though. Local store is putting in for 45 of the things.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... I always chose powers/relics/traits when I made the list. Figured they were enhancements to the list I was making, and thus were intrinsic (ie. if my plan was to X, and Warlord Trait Y enhances X, why would I want to re-pick at any time).
Didn't realise that wasn't the norm.
For a lot of folks it was. Partly because of past edition inertia, partly because they didn't actually realize they could do that.
It has a very janky feel unless someone started without those kind of restrictions.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... I always chose powers/relics/traits when I made the list. Figured they were enhancements to the list I was making, and thus were intrinsic (ie. if my plan was to X, and Warlord Trait Y enhances X, why would I want to re-pick at any time).
Didn't realise that wasn't the norm.
For a lot of folks it was. Partly because of past edition inertia, partly because they didn't actually realize they could do that.
It has a very janky feel unless someone started without those kind of restrictions.
There is also the issue with quite a few codices not having any options to swap in. For orks and DG all traits, powers and relics are locked in the second you wrote the list, no matter what the enemy brought - everything else was worthless anyways.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
And for the codexes that weren't, where that was all the play...it's a big nerf.
Harles are getting nerfed in pretty much every way from 8th to 9th. Fewer CP (gotta take another faction since it's not a complete army), all the nerfs to melee, huge terrain nerfs compared to competitive 8th. And now you gotta spend CP on pivotal roles upfront so again even less CP on top of that since you can't save the odd CP here or there if the match doesn't require it, can't swap them out for fun and you have to choose the ones that don't make you auto-lose the game against certain armies, can't swap relics either, can't swap powers...the faction goes from very limited in 8th to extremely, absurdly limited in 9th. It really ends up feeling line an insult to injury situation.
A super uncustomizable unit list was made up for in 8th with a lot of pre-game customization; that was worked into the balance. Now that's all gone, replaced by nothing except even more nerfs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 05:29:31
I imagine we'll be seeing less Braziers of Eternal Flame among SoB players as a result of this change, unless the meta becomes super-psychic heavy for some reason.
What, you guys used to select relics, warlord traits and psychic powers just before the game ? That's list tailoring. No wonder it was a mess to balance if half the players played ITC house rules and tailored their list on the go lol
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... I always chose powers/relics/traits when I made the list. Figured they were enhancements to the list I was making, and thus were intrinsic (ie. if my plan was to X, and Warlord Trait Y enhances X, why would I want to re-pick at any time).
Didn't realise that wasn't the norm.
Same.
Thirded? LOL, not even a real word. Oh well.
I've faced so many people that show up to the store and don't even have their points figured out so then I gotta sit through the army construction, relic buying, spell taking portion. The 30 minutes spent, that my opponent wastes of my time, is that much more time for a game or a post-game analysis.
yukishiro1 wrote: And for the codexes that weren't, where that was all the play...it's a big nerf.
Harles are getting nerfed in pretty much every way from 8th to 9th. Fewer CP (gotta take another faction since it's not a complete army), all the nerfs to melee, huge terrain nerfs compared to competitive 8th. And now you gotta spend CP on pivotal roles upfront so again even less CP on top of that since you can't save the odd CP here or there if the match doesn't require it, can't swap them out for fun and you have to choose the ones that don't make you auto-lose the game against certain armies, can't swap relics either, can't swap powers...the faction goes from very limited in 8th to extremely, absurdly limited in 9th. It really ends up feeling line an insult to injury situation.
A super uncustomizable unit list was made up for in 8th with a lot of pre-game customization; that was worked into the balance. Now that's all gone, replaced by nothing except even more nerfs.
You do realize that those rules were just released in last month's White Dwarf? There have been next to no competitive events in the meantime, how would you even notice to have lost anything?
The amount of hyperbole you are spouting is getting ridiculous.
Oh, and pretty much every faction loses a few tricks from 9th edition - you know, because PA was written with 9th in mind
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Aaranis wrote: What, you guys used to select relics, warlord traits and psychic powers just before the game ? That's list tailoring. No wonder it was a mess to balance if half the players played ITC house rules and tailored their list on the go lol
It wasn't "house rules," it's literally how the game rules worked throughout 8th edition. If you never knew, I guess ignorance was bliss?
You do realize that those rules were just released in last month's White Dwarf? There have been next to no competitive events in the meantime, how would you even notice to have lost anything?
The amount of hyperbole you are spouting is getting ridiculous.
This is a truly terrible argument: "you didn't get to use the stuff that made your faction viable much anyway before it was taken away from you, so who cares that you lost it?"
That makes it worse to have the carpet yanked out from underneath the faction, not better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/03 06:17:21
yukishiro1 wrote: Yep. Cawl musta outfitted those land raiders with some fancy new treads so they can go straight up vertical walls.
Or all the ork vehicles are straight out of that wonderful Anime Movie Redline. The silly gak their vehicles get up to is fantastic.
One thing I'm super curious about is engagement ranges. If your in engagement range you can't shoot right? And every unit has a tube around them going out 1 inch and up 5. Does that mean if you park a vehicle with a base on the ground floor and that engagement range reaches to the second floor does that stop either unit from shooting even though neither are in the 0.5" range needed to swing in melee?
Actually you strike in melee if you are in engagement range. So you can strike 5" UP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Tabletop titans again (paraphrasing): 9th is a shooting edition, all these changes that seem to nerf melee absolutely do, all our testing has come up with the result that shooting is hugely buffed and melee is boned
Also, you have to choose warlord traits, relics, psychic powers, etc on your datasheet, before you see your opponent's army. No customization at all any more of any kind. Everything needs to be done before on your army list.
This is a huge change, and a really negative one in my opinion. It really sucks having to choose relics and powers before you know the match-up. I didn't even realize this myself looking at the rules. What a huge bummer, and the result is going to be far more homogenization as people will go for safe choices instead of interesting ones.
Yeah that sucks. Big time. Some items become from marginally useful to too risky as they are useful in some games, useless in others.
Guess I need to buy new canoness to replace the item that just ain't worth it if I have to decide whether to upgrade it to relic or not before I can see what I'm facing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/03 06:19:11
Aaranis wrote: What, you guys used to select relics, warlord traits and psychic powers just before the game ? That's list tailoring. No wonder it was a mess to balance if half the players played ITC house rules and tailored their list on the go lol
It's literally how the game rules worked throughout 8th edition. If you never knew, I guess ignorance was bliss?
Or maybe some people want more time to play. I have all day, in my house, to make a list. I don't have all day to make the list at the store. I was always annoyed by people who weren't prepared. And yeah, it was annoying because I don't play SM or Tau so my opponents could hard counter my lists pretty easily (I played DG and Daemons before Covid, have Sisters but since Covid lockdown haven't gotten any games in). Now my opponents will have to think about their powers, relics, and traits before they come to the store. Unless it's just him/her and I playing that day I don't have to worry about someone taking anti-marine relics/powers and then seeing my Daemons and switching to anti-infantry relics/powers.
More fair for all involved. But I get it, tournament players have a WAAC mentality even when they choose to play casually. Not judging, just nice to see that narrative get knocked down a few pegs with certain rules changes. Also glad magic-boxes disappeared. Really dumb that a wall that had more holes than Swiss cheese somehow hid units/models who were so visible at times I could see entire TORSOS, not just banner poles.
yukishiro1 wrote: This is a truly terrible argument: "you didn't get to use the stuff that made your faction viable much anyway before it was taken away from you, so who cares that you lost it?"
That makes it worse to have the carpet yanked out from underneath the faction, not better.
You don't even have data to prove it made your army viable, so just stop.
Either all armies should have the ability to tailor their list on the fly or none should have it.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
