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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I would hope Warriors at around £20...

I can't see the Warriors being cheaper than Nighthaunt Chainrasp Horde which retails at £25 ($40 US).

Yeah, and they've caught holy hell over that one.

I know, because that's why I never started a Nighthaunt army myself. Still it's the closest equivalent to the new Warriors that GW has (easy to build, core unit for the army, etc).

 Sasori wrote:

Cynista wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Just did the math on this 10 flayed ones vs T4, you cause an average of 5 unsaved wounds vs 3+, 6 with the new rules.
Against T5 you cause an average of 3 unsaved wounds against 3+ with the old rules vs 2 with the current rules.

So it's not vastly superior at all. It's very slightly better against T5+, while the new rule being better on T4 and below. That's not even starting to get into the bonus' you can get between the stratagems and the Novokh Dynasty.

Long story short, they were bad before and are still bad now. It's a shame. I think if they had 4 attacks base each they would be viable

If you want to take them, taking them in Novokh makes them pretty good I think. They can get the bonus AP, +1 charge and the Novokh Stratagem for more attacks.

These guys seem primed to take a backfield objective form an enemy.

My point is that Novokh Flayed Ones used to reroll both hits and wounds. And they were.... mediocre at best? We all wanted them to get better and frankly they've gotten worse, partially because Novokh got nerfed. So I'm not really going to go along with anyone saying they're good because they aren't lol. And that goes for a lot of our codex. I've been reading it for the past hour, to be frank, it's not great.

A lot of things have changed and went up in points... and Flayed Ones went cheaper if I read it correctly. I don't play Necrons, but comparing them with the last edition pt costs isn't fair.

In a world where a Wych costs 11 points, a 13 FO is pretty good.

Novokh got +1 charge and bonus AP on a charge (or when charged). I'd rather have that than only rerolling failed hits on charges/response to charges

Especially given that a lot of necron melee units can get buffs from being destroyers, from nearby destroyer lords, or are canoptek and can get buffs from technomancers.

Granted, flayer ones don't benefit from those buffs, but I'd rather have the new charge bonuses anyway.

Cynista wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Cynista wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Just did the math on this 10 flayed ones vs T4, you cause an average of 5 unsaved wounds vs 3+, 6 with the new rules.
Against T5 you cause an average of 3 unsaved wounds against 3+ with the old rules vs 2 with the current rules.

So it's not vastly superior at all. It's very slightly better against T5+, while the new rule being better on T4 and below. That's not even starting to get into the bonus' you can get between the stratagems and the Novokh Dynasty.

Long story short, they were bad before and are still bad now. It's a shame. I think if they had 4 attacks base each they would be viable

If you want to take them, taking them in Novokh makes them pretty good I think. They can get the bonus AP, +1 charge and the Novokh Stratagem for more attacks.

These guys seem primed to take a backfield objective form an enemy.

My point is that Novokh Flayed Ones used to reroll both hits and wounds. And they were.... mediocre at best? We all wanted them to get better and frankly they've gotten worse, partially because Novokh got nerfed. So I'm not really going to go along with anyone saying they're good because they aren't lol. And that goes for a lot of our codex. I've been reading it for the past hour, to be frank, it's not great.

I don't think the numbers back you up here to be honest, while they do marginally fewer hits on a charge (2.67 old Flayed ones and 2.5 Flayed ones) and don't have the wound reroll, an extra -2AP more than make up for this for anything with a 5+ save or better... and they've gone down to 13 points too?

EDIT: Plus, the Novokh strat now gives you +1 attack rather than fight again, and the fight again strat is still there for Flayed Ones and dropped to 2CP from 3.

The point being they were so bad before nobody ever took them. We can argue about whether rerolling hits and wounds is better or if -2 AP is better (give me the former any day of the week, we have more than enough AP already), but at BEST it's a sidegrade for a bottom tier unit. Why are people so hesistant to call out GW? Because I bet you all will be when Necrons are crashing out of tournaments next year.

And strats are not a sound argument, because CP are currency.

Cynista wrote:
The point being they were so bad before nobody ever took them. We can argue about whether rerolling hits and wounds is better or if -2 AP is better (give me the former any day of the week, we have more than enough AP already), but at BEST it's a sidegrade for a bottom tier unit. Why are people so hesistant to call out GW? Because I bet you all will be when Necrons are crashing out of tournaments next year.

And strats are not a sound argument, because CP are currency.

What you said was that Flayed Ones have got worse and Novokh has got worse, and neither of those things are backed up by the numbers; Flayed Ones have got better and have got cheaper, and they now have additional supporting rules as well.

I don't know where FO sit in the new army, I never got any first time round and I really hate the finecast models (this is probably more of a reason they've never played to be honest) and I don't have the codex yet, so yes maybe they're terrible, but to claim they're worse isn't backed up.

Flayed ones don't look great to me. Better than before, but you need to (1) be Novokh and (2) spend 2CP to make them actually good, with a mind-bending 4CP to fight twice while being good.

It's a ton of investment when you could just take a bunch of other stuff in the book that does basically the same melee effect but isn't super squishy and doesn't require a ton of CP to work. The only thing they're really the best at is blendering low quality chaff, and I'm not sure that's something the army is really going to have an issue with anyway.

Or you could just run 2 units of 5 and use them as Linebreaker or Deploy Scramblers bots.

Also if anyone thinks Novokh got nerfed they're out of their mind and don't understand 40k.

Okay its 3 CP, but you can have 8(8) S4 AP-2 attacks, with exploding hits versus non-vehicles, on a 13 point model.

CP are there to be spent.

The debate is going to be Novokh for damage output and more reliable charge from DS, or grab obsec, and basically go "I've got 20 models jumping on a rear primary. Kill them or risk a massive 15-0 swing on the primary." With the -1 to hit stratagem and new RP that might not be trivial, while the rest of your force moves up.

Everyone talking about Novokh while I'm looking at rad-aura'd Flayed Ones.

Darsath wrote:
Everyone talking about Novokh while I'm looking at rad-aura'd Flayed Ones.

Yeah, the rad aura shifts almost every important toughness value (3, 4, 5 and 8).
Its definitely good for a melee army.

I have friends that think I should do youtube videos about Necrons. They say I think outside the box and a lot of my tips change their opinions on Necrons. I am unsure how I should start? Should I make a video about the silver tide list everyone keeps talking about or should I do unit by unit analysis? How should I start?

yukishiro1 wrote:
Flayed ones don't look great to me. Better than before, but you need to (1) be Novokh and (2) spend 2CP to make them actually good, with a mind-bending 4CP to fight twice while being good.

It's a ton of investment when you could just take a bunch of other stuff in the book that does basically the same melee effect but isn't super squishy and doesn't require a ton of CP to work. The only thing they're really the best at is blendering low quality chaff, and I'm not sure that's something the army is really going to have an issue with anyway.

I don't think you have to spend a ton of CP to make them good, depending on how large the squad is you may not even need the fight twice. with 10 models and Novokh ap bonus and stratagem you'll deal 10 damage on average to MEQ. That's enough to kill a combat squad.

The Novokh +1 Attack is until the end of the phase, so you can use the fight twice without spending for the +1 attack again.

as Bosskelot mentioned you can just use them for linebreak/deploy scramblers in units of 5.

That being said, you do want them to be Novokh.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I would hope Warriors at around £20...

I can't see the Warriors being cheaper than Nighthaunt Chainrasp Horde which retails at £25 ($40 US).

Yeah, and they've caught holy hell over that one.

I know, because that's why I never started a Nighthaunt army myself. Still it's the closest equivalent to the new Warriors that GW has (easy to build, core unit for the army, etc).

The recruit edition is £32.50, if the warden, Lieutenant and 5 intercessors are making up £7.50 somethings wrong. No way should those warriors be sat at £25.

Dudeface wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I would hope Warriors at around £20...

I can't see the Warriors being cheaper than Nighthaunt Chainrasp Horde which retails at £25 ($40 US).

Yeah, and they've caught holy hell over that one.

I know, because that's why I never started a Nighthaunt army myself. Still it's the closest equivalent to the new Warriors that GW has (easy to build, core unit for the army, etc).

The recruit edition is £32.50, if the warden, Lieutenant and 5 intercessors are making up £7.50 somethings wrong. No way should those warriors be sat at £25.

GW normally offers a pretty steep discount on models in the starter sets. I myself would be suprised if it is cheaper than 40 USD.

I'll be shocked if they're under $35, that would be way out of step with the rest of GW's releases. Probably $40.

Same. Not selling many of this kit in the short term due to box sets doesn't matter too much, as GW can easily afford loss leaders if it means customers will make those next few purchases of full price kits.

Resetting (lowering) expectations of what core troops cost.... GW will avoid that like the plague.

Sorry, been out of the loop.

Can anyone confirm if Heavy Destroyers come in Squadrons?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry, been out of the loop.

Can anyone confirm if Heavy Destroyers come in Squadrons?

1-3 solo entry: Heavy Support

Or 1 in a squad of 1-6 regular Destroyers (Lohkest sp?) also heavy support.

 Sasori wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I would hope Warriors at around £20...

I can't see the Warriors being cheaper than Nighthaunt Chainrasp Horde which retails at £25 ($40 US).

Yeah, and they've caught holy hell over that one.

I know, because that's why I never started a Nighthaunt army myself. Still it's the closest equivalent to the new Warriors that GW has (easy to build, core unit for the army, etc).

The recruit edition is £32.50, if the warden, Lieutenant and 5 intercessors are making up £7.50 somethings wrong. No way should those warriors be sat at £25.

GW normally offers a pretty steep discount on models in the starter sets. I myself would be suprised if it is cheaper than 40 USD.

Well, when the royal warden comes out at £15 and a box of warriors is £25, making them £7.50 more expensive than buying the exact same sculpts together, I shall golf clap for GW.

Oddly if they sold me 20 warriors for £35 I'd be onboard with that.

Bitharne wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry, been out of the loop.

Can anyone confirm if Heavy Destroyers come in Squadrons?

1-3 solo entry: Heavy Support

Or 1 in a squad of 1-6 regular Destroyers (Lohkest sp?) also heavy support.

Cheers dude!

Might invest in 9.....

LHD's are an example of a unit in the Codex which statswise is excellent and fills a really important niche but whose points feel like they're slightly too high.

Thankfully, future CA's can fix that. Which is good because what happened with a lot of units in the old Codex is that their core rules and statlines were just terrible, so no amount of points reductions were able to make them appealing. Outside of one or two units, that's not a problem with the new Codex where the most you can say about a potentially underwhelming/overcosted unit is that it is that way because of it's cost, not because it doesn't have potential.

Well, we’re also comparing points from a freshly updated Codex, to older Codexes, when there does seem to be a trend toward point increases overall.

Definitely thinking of going Destroyer Heavy. Mostly for fun, and hang the CP cost

Well, even if you compare the LHD to the old HD from the MFM, it's about 30 more points which is certainly significant.

Anyone else feel like rites of reanimation should have just been unit recovers D3 wounds and usable on any unit with RP.

And I know it's not happening, but having living metal treat a model as having +1 wound for RP would have been great...

Still not happy Necrons aren't immune to morale losses... I know they changed the fluff to cater to this, but still feels wrong.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Well, even if you compare the LHD to the old HD from the MFM, it's about 30 more points which is certainly significant.

I guess.

But what price sickass firepower? CHOOM! BAZAPPP! PEW!

MrPieChee wrote:
Anyone else feel like rites of reanimation should have just been unit recovers D3 wounds and usable on any unit with RP.

Absolutely. But GW has a new key word, so they have to get some use out of it.


Also very disappointed that characters still don't revive beyond a bloody stratagem.

 Sasori wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Flayed ones don't look great to me. Better than before, but you need to (1) be Novokh and (2) spend 2CP to make them actually good, with a mind-bending 4CP to fight twice while being good.

It's a ton of investment when you could just take a bunch of other stuff in the book that does basically the same melee effect but isn't super squishy and doesn't require a ton of CP to work. The only thing they're really the best at is blendering low quality chaff, and I'm not sure that's something the army is really going to have an issue with anyway.

I don't think you have to spend a ton of CP to make them good, depending on how large the squad is you may not even need the fight twice. with 10 models and Novokh ap bonus and stratagem you'll deal 10 damage on average to MEQ. That's enough to kill a combat squad.

The Novokh +1 Attack is until the end of the phase, so you can use the fight twice without spending for the +1 attack again.

as Bosskelot mentioned you can just use them for linebreak/deploy scramblers in units of 5.

That being said, you do want them to be Novokh.

Just out of interest... I reran the numbers using Arise Against the Interlopers (dynasty trait that gives auto-wound against infanty and bikers on 6s to hit) instead of Novokh and I think it gives you a slight further boost against higher T enemies. If I have run the numbers right! Means if you're expecting a higher T field, might be a slightly better pick than Novokh.

EDIT: I think this means on 10 Flayed Ones with Blood Rites (1CP), you will average 10 wounds on T5 3+ units... With 40 attacks you'll hopefully hit 6.67 6s, which is 13.33 wounds in itself (6.67 unsaved wounds vs 3+).

DOUBLE EDIT: Now I read the rules again, I suspect the auto-wounds only apply to the individual 6s to hit, not the additional free hits from AAtI... It's still superior for the T5 targets, but seems generally less so than the additional AP on T4 and below.

As I’m well behind on the new info, and also pretty lazy.....

Would any current Necron player like to weigh in with their top 5 units based on the new info, and any comments on how you might rearrange your army?