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Karol wrote:

Tycho wrote:

Fix terminators, and if GW can't do that, then remove termintors and make paladins troop choice.

Careful what you wish for. My bet is that GW's idea of "fixing" Terminators is going to be "LOOK! Your Aggressors can all teleport in by default now!"

GK don't have primaris access. I wouldn't mind having paladins as troops. Am not even sure if interceptors instead of strikes wouldn't be better either.

Well better for gw's bottomline maybee.




Also , especially for DE, can we please have more variety then footlords with stupid invuls? It get's Boring to allways fight the 2++ pleb....

I'll go ahead and wishlist for Deathguard and Deathwatch.

Deathguard, more inclusion of some chaos units to buff it out some, like oblits, better strats and more snot bolt rounds.

For Deathwatch, an actual new codex/update with a good robust feel and phobos kill teams so I can finally use my phobos duders.

mrFickle wrote:

leerm02 wrote:
I'm also going to jump on the: "Fix terminators" bandwagon.

Heck, back in 2nd edition (when I was FIRST introduced to the game) they were almost impossible to kill. Now? Well........

3+save on 2 d6! They were too hard to kill by I agree they are a shadow of what they once were

They were still easy to kill. Save mods went to -6, including krak missiles. Eldar spammed -2 and -3. They were still a joke.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Another thing is the fact that vehicles all are basically T7/8 Sv3+. The problem with previous editions was that vehicles had 1 chance to live (penetrate) while infantry had 2 chances to live (wounds, save). Well, with 3+ saves, vehicles get 6+ or no save against the majority of AT weapons, so they just kind of exist to keep infantry out, but then SM infantry has like Ap2 D3 boltguns now. And then for some reason the distinction between heavy and light tanks is where infantry battled rifles can hurt them more (almost like most even light armored vehicles are bulletproof) and not how resistant they are to medium AT weapons like Lascannons. This of course also leave high power weapons completely screwed, since S10 is basically useless to pay for and has no improvement over S9.


Imo tank guns should be powerful, medium tanks should be T8 and heavy tanks T9 (which would pretty conveniently add the definition required to both the tank hulls and AT weapons), and vehicle saves should move into the realm of 2+, 1+, and 0+ which would allow them to have similar numbers on the die to infantry at a different place in the scale.

Totally agree. They could easily use the strength/toughness and saves system to change the effectiveness profiles of weapons to make tanks more usable/useful and creating some more differentiation in weapon types.

I'd also say, though, high invun saves on high toughness models are also huge factor here. They basically invalidate the profile of many weapons thought of as "AT" (few shots, high S, high AP, Multi-damage) because they invert the math to make more traditionally "AI" guns (high shots lower s, little ap, low damage to prevent spillover-loss) the most effective.
It it were me, I'd make the ap-ignoring invuln save as we know it very rare (especially at 4++ or better) and replace it with true damage reduction per-hit. this would also mean giving more big guns fixed or minimum damage or at least replacing many d6 with like, 2+d3.
OR expand the "mortal-wound on 6" type rules to let the big feth-off guns get some stuff through the invulns much more often.

Not really. 2d6 average is 7. They still have a average chance to live with -3 , as thats a 6+ on 2d6

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not really. 2d6 average is 7. They still have a average chance to live with -3 , as thats a 6+ on 2d6

That's not the way that works. That's a little better than a 4+ save, and your 5 or 10 terminators were getting PELTED. To see how expensive units fare with 4+ saves, fire some accelerator autocannons at terminators in 8th. Then get back to me.

IMO an interesting mechanic for Terminators could be 1+ save and re-roll Nat 1s instead of the invul. Obviously Nat 1 still always fails.

Makes them basically invulnerable to low AP weapons (as they should be) and AP-1 makes no difference to the, but means cracking out the AP-4 or better weapons really has a noticeable effect.

So? Something has to be shot at, not matter how strong a unit will be, enough hooting will take them down. The point is to make them good as take lots of small arms damage. High AP is meant to kill them and then they will still have a better save (over 50%) than what they do now (33% b.c of 5++). They will become better at livig.

oldmarine and numarine vehicle interchangability.

I've houseruled it for my own games, but I should never have had to.

Another way of doing it is to divide AP types.

Anti infantry and anti tank are on different scales, so -1AI shouldn't be the same effect on tanks.

You can do this:

Models with the Vehicle keyword are not affected by a weapon's AP value unless that weapon also has the Anti Tank keyword.

You can also say:

Anti-Tank: weapons with this keyword ignore the armour of infantry units.

Which allows for low penetration values for AT weapons without sacrificing their anti-infantry ability.

The system makes way too much sense Hellbore, you're flagged !

GK don't have primaris access. I wouldn't mind having paladins as troops. Am not even sure if interceptors instead of strikes wouldn't be better either

I know this. That's why I said be careful what you wish for!

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The system makes way too much sense Hellbore, you're flagged !

You can make it cascading as well, so that titans are similarly protected and don't need huge wound profiles:

MONSTER/VEHICLE: Ignore AP values unless weapon has the AT or TK keywords.

TITANIC MONSTER/VEHICLE: Ignore AP values unless weapon has the TK keyword.

AT: Ignore INFANTRY armour, apply as normal to VEHICLES/MONSTERS.

Titan Killer: Ignore INFANTRY and VEHICLE/MONSTER armour. Apply as normal to TITANIC VEHICLES/MONSTERS.

 Hellebore wrote:
AT: Ignore INFANTRY armour, apply as normal to VEHICLES/MONSTERS.

Ignore infantry armour? So even Terminators?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
AT: Ignore INFANTRY armour, apply as normal to VEHICLES/MONSTERS.

Ignore infantry armour? So even Terminators?

Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
AT: Ignore INFANTRY armour, apply as normal to VEHICLES/MONSTERS.

Ignore infantry armour? So even Terminators?

Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Though to be fair Terminators would still have their invulnerable saves, which would make them somewhat unique for infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Umm... yeah they do. That's what Terminator armour is.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Umm... yeah they do. That's what Terminator armour is.

It physically can't be. Having joints and such prevents it. Doesn't matter what the fluff claims.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
AT: Ignore INFANTRY armour, apply as normal to VEHICLES/MONSTERS.

Ignore infantry armour? So even Terminators?

Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Though to be fair Terminators would still have their invulnerable saves, which would make them somewhat unique for infantry.

I would get rid of that, but that's me.

Realism is not a good reference point for 40k.

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Umm... yeah they do. That's what Terminator armour is.

It physically can't be. Having joints and such prevents it. Doesn't matter what the fluff claims.

By that twisted logic, a tank wouldn't either because of hatches - and treads.

We're talking several thousand years in the future. Terminators are also known as tank suits, have built in teleporters and were commissioned for use in plasma reactors. Having them "as tough as a tank" and being able to take AT weaponry would set them apart from other infantry (other than using a force field like a storm shield). Heck, they *might* be a bit scary if they're the only infantry that could go toe-to-toe against an tank.

However you want to approach armour like terminator armour a simple option is the following:

Anti Tank: treats units with the terminator/mega armour/centurion keywords as vehicles

 Stormonu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Umm... yeah they do. That's what Terminator armour is.

It physically can't be. Having joints and such prevents it. Doesn't matter what the fluff claims.

By that twisted logic, a tank wouldn't either because of hatches - and treads.

We're talking several thousand years in the future. Terminators are also known as tank suits, have built in teleporters and were commissioned for use in plasma reactors. Having them "as tough as a tank" and being able to take AT weaponry would set them apart from other infantry (other than using a force field like a storm shield). Heck, they *might* be a bit scary if they're the only infantry that could go toe-to-toe against an tank.

Those aren't joints. They aren't as tough as a tank. The tanks will have progressed as much. Anyway, that's how I'd handle it. You don't have to agree. And they're not going to implement this system anyway.

So many that, in all honesty, I need to write a full codex.

But, for starters, a rework of the HQ units for Orks.

WARBOSS - Da big guy. While most are built for being melee monsters, it shouldn't be the only option. There should be a way to make a shooting-happy boss (For Bad moons for instance) or a Kunning Boss (for Blood Axes) who aren't "Move close, smash with Klaw, repeat." Limited to 1 per army, and certainly gets an invulnerable save.

BIG BOSS - 1-3 per choice, taking the role of Lieutenants... they support the Warboss in big games, they replace him in small games. They should be CHEAP (roughly half the cost of the big guy), but with plenty of options, not just for gear, but abilities … some are fighters, some are commanders, some are shooters … get some options in there.

Warbosses and Big Bosses have a better statline that the others, to reflect their focus on fighting.Not by much in the case of a Big Boss, but enough to matter.

BIG MEK - A Mek who's big enough to run his own
band. Has a base statline, but one of the upgrade options is "Big mek Toys" … the Shock Attack Gu is ne. The Kustom Force Field is another. There are 2-4 new options there as well, letting GW sell some more models.

BIG DOC - Not a common boss, but should be an option.

BIG HERDER - New one! Much like a Mek deals with tech and a Doc deals with bodyparts, a Herder deals with Grots, Snots, and Squigs, and should give a bonus to those units.

Weirdboys are moved form HQ, where they shouldn't really be, to Elite... no one follows them into battle after all, they're just a resource to be used (that sometimes explodes in your hands.)

Those five make up the Ork HQ core, which features several options … big and powerful boss, dirt cheap big boss, specialized Big X guys, each focused on making the units around them better, leadin', or fightin'.

That's the first part. There's way more.

Another thing I'd like to see is Overlords and Lords can an extra attack. There is no reason they should be at only 3 base attacks each.

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Umm... yeah they do. That's what Terminator armour is.

It physically can't be. Having joints and such prevents it. Doesn't matter what the fluff claims.

Exceedingly advanced and rare materials plus a force field is enough to make that work. It'd just be too expensive to make a tank out of the same stuff, or doctrine/logistics would somehow prevent it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. An AT gun should penetrate terminators easily. They aren't tanks and don't have tank-level armor.

Umm... yeah they do. That's what Terminator armour is.

It physically can't be. Having joints and such prevents it. Doesn't matter what the fluff claims.

Exceedingly advanced and rare materials plus a force field is enough to make that work. It'd just be too expensive to make a tank out of the same stuff, or doctrine/logistics would somehow prevent it.

Terminators aren't tank-armored in the fluff either, though. It was designed as a blend of Dreadnought and Power Armor to provide near-dreadnought capability where a dreadnought could not go.

That puts it in the "light vehicle" category of resiliency, which is very impressive for infantry but not like a Land Raider, Predator, or Leman Russ tank.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
So? Something has to be shot at, not matter how strong a unit will be, enough hooting will take them down. The point is to make them good as take lots of small arms damage. High AP is meant to kill them and then they will still have a better save (over 50%) than what they do now (33% b.c of 5++). They will become better at livig.

That is not how armour works. you could be shoting a 9mm at a armour apc all day, and you would be just achiving the goal of paint stripping.

Terminators aren't tank-armored in the fluff either, though.

I read a story where a termintor was stomped on by a titan and he stood up. A predator or land raider that was stomped on by a warlod titant would be a blown up wreck. Termintors should be borderline invunerable to all incoming fire. And the fact that they are build on ddesigns of suits made to walk in plasma reactors means they should take zero damage from plasma unless it is something huge like a plasma anihilator or a blastgun mounted on a warhound.

Craftworld rules massively expanded in the same vein as the codex supplements for Marines.

I want an Ulthwe list that feels like an Ulthwe list from the ground up, with various buffs, benefits and stratagems for Guardian units, encouraging Warlock use and a unique Psychic discipline. If Imperial Fists and Iron Hands can get unique psychic powers, why can't the most powerful Aeldari psykers in the galaxy get some too?

Karol wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
So? Something has to be shot at, not matter how strong a unit will be, enough hooting will take them down. The point is to make them good as take lots of small arms damage. High AP is meant to kill them and then they will still have a better save (over 50%) than what they do now (33% b.c of 5++). They will become better at livig.

That is not how armour works. you could be shoting a 9mm at a armour apc all day, and you would be just achiving the goal of paint stripping.

Terminators aren't tank-armored in the fluff either, though.

I read a story where a termintor was stomped on by a titan and he stood up. A predator or land raider that was stomped on by a warlod titant would be a blown up wreck. Termintors should be borderline invunerable to all incoming fire. And the fact that they are build on ddesigns of suits made to walk in plasma reactors means they should take zero damage from plasma unless it is something huge like a plasma anihilator or a blastgun mounted on a warhound.

Doesn't make that story a good benchmark for game play. Also, terminators have never been depicted as especially tough in the game.

Karol wrote:
I read a story where a termintor was stomped on by a titan and he stood up. A predator or land raider that was stomped on by a warlod titant would be a blown up wreck. Termintors should be borderline invunerable to all incoming fire. And the fact that they are build on ddesigns of suits made to walk in plasma reactors means they should take zero damage from plasma unless it is something huge like a plasma anihilator or a blastgun mounted on a warhound.

Wow, sounds like a great depiction of an invul save doesn't it? Almost as if Terminators have them, and Land Raiders inexplicably dont.

The key takeaway is that marines can never have enough good things.