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Hi all

Trying to get my head around mathhammer, and weighing up the damage-inflicting value of various units. I used the web-based mathhammer to compare squads of plain tactical marines, tactical marines with storm/heavy bolters, intercessors (plain and assault variety). I used MEQ as the basis of the comparison, once in 'normal' range (MEQ Norm) and again in rapid-fire range (MEQ RF). I then tried to determine the points-per-wound (PPW) cost of each unit of 5 marines. The results are below.

My questions for the hive-mind are (bearing in mind I know it doesn't deal with durability, threat range, strats, modifiers or re-rolls etc) as follows:

1. what is this telling me?
2. does this really mean that a tactical squad of 5 marines, the sergeant with combi-plasma and one marine with a grav-amp will put out more damage than assault intercessors vs MEQ?


Squad Cost MEQ Norm PPW MEQ RF PPW Avg
Tacs with combi-plasma and grav amp 91 3.666 16.37 4.37 13.73 15.05
Intercessors (assault) 90 1.665 37.24 1.665 37.24 37.24
Tacs with storm & heavy bolter 72 1.222 58.92 1.777 40.52 49.72
tacs with heavy bolter 70 1.111 63.01 1.555 45.02 54.01
Intercessors (rapid) 85 0.835 108.98 1.665 54.65 81.82
Tacs w/storm bolter 62 0.666 127.63 1.333 63.77 95.70
Plain tacticals 60 0.555 162.16 1.11 81.08 121.62

Edit to add: I can't for the life of me get the table to display properly. In summary:

Tacs with combi-plasma and grav amp 15.05 points per wound dealt, next best are assault intercessors at 37.24 points per wound dealt vs MEQ.

I don't know what it's telling you because I don't know what you did. What question are you trying to answer?

Yeah its look a bit off (most likely me b.c i can't see when things are all oddly formatted like that).

If you want to know the points per damage just fine the damage and divided by the points.

Example a 60pt unit deals 5 damage, each damage is costing you 12pts.

If that same 60pt unit instead dealt 3 damage then each damage cost you 20pts

But really that doesn't matter unless you are looking for the best in a certain role, lets say you want your troops to be better at Anti-infantry but they have 3 weapon options and a special weapon, you can check the math vs the infantry stats you want and find out what is better.

Thanks. I am trying to figure out the points per damage typically inflicted by a unit vs MEQ. So I used the mathhammer site: https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/ to plug in the relevant details of each 5 man squad, first at extended range, then within rapid fire range. So those values are points of typically inflicted damage via that site, rather than potential maximum. I.e. normal tactical and intercessor marines (5 shots at max 1 damage each at extended range) would be your 60 point/5 damage example, whereas this is looking at what they (mathematically) do vs MEQ.

So, I think you've confirmed the type of methodology I'm aiming to use, but the basis of comparison (maximum vs typical damage dealt) is what differs. I *think* this is telling me that the tactical squad with combi-plasma and grav amp is a mean MEQ/anti-infantry machine for its points cost. Is that what you see?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah its look a bit off.

If you want to know the points per damage just fine the damage and divided by the points.

Example a 60pt unit deals 5 damage, each damage is costing you 12 points.

If that same 60pt unit instead dealt 3 damage then each damage cost you 20pts.

But really that doesn't matter unless you are looking for the best in a certain role, lets say you want your troops to be better at Anti-infantry but they have 3 weapon options and a special weapon, you can check the math vs the infantry stats you want and find out what is better.

 XeonDragon wrote:

1. what is this telling me?
2. does this really mean that a tactical squad of 5 marines, the sergeant with combi-plasma and one marine with a grav-amp will put out more damage than assault intercessors vs MEQ?
. . .
In summary:
Tacs with combi-plasma and grav amp 15.05 points per wound dealt, next best are assault intercessors at 37.24 points per wound dealt vs MEQ.

Yessir. Tacs with Grav Cannon and Plasma do excellent work against MEQs and other 'Elite' units (also heavy stuff like tanks). The price you pay for that is a wound a model. Compared to standard Intercessors, they also have to close the distance to get that efficiency.

Personally I love 'em.

Edit: They have the added benefit of getting most of that work done by two models of the squad, which leaves the other three guys free to shoot at lighter targets. For Intercessors to compete, damage-wise, they have to fire everybody at the heavier target.

Cool, thanks for the perspective

 Insectum7 wrote:

 XeonDragon wrote:

1. what is this telling me?
2. does this really mean that a tactical squad of 5 marines, the sergeant with combi-plasma and one marine with a grav-amp will put out more damage than assault intercessors vs MEQ?
. . .
In summary:
Tacs with combi-plasma and grav amp 15.05 points per wound dealt, next best are assault intercessors at 37.24 points per wound dealt vs MEQ.

Yessir. Tacs with Grav Cannon and Plasma do excellent work against MEQs and other 'Elite' units (also heavy stuff like tanks). The price you pay for that is a wound a model. Compared to standard Intercessors, they also have to close the distance to get that efficiency.

Personally I love 'em.

Edit: They have the added benefit of getting most of that work done by two models of the squad, which leaves the other three guys free to shoot at lighter targets. For Intercessors to compete, damage-wise, they have to fire everybody at the heavier target.

 XeonDragon wrote:

Edit to add: I can't for the life of me get the table to display properly.

Don't copy past the table, put in the denomination of the result, so instead of just raw numbers something like:

Tacs with combi-plasma and grav amp 91 pts, 3.666 unsaved wounds, 16.37 PPW, 4.37 unsaved wounds, 13.73 PPW RF, 15.05 PPW Avg

1. what is this telling me?

It is telling you the average amount of damage caused by various squads against SM and how effectively they deal damage. Something else you should be interested in is what this doesn't tell you. It doesn't tell you how well the different units do against GEQ, Boyz, TEQ, Primaris, Rhinos, Leman Russes or Knights. What the unit does on the move vs stationary or with doctrines active and finally and most importantly it doesn't tell you how much damage your unit can sustain per point which is going to skew the results massively in favour of glass cannons if this is the only comparison you make.

2. does this really mean that a tactical squad of 5 marines, the sergeant with combi-plasma and one marine with a grav-amp will put out more damage than assault intercessors vs MEQ?

Sure, the assault gun is horrible for killing MEQ without doctrines. I usually just advance mine T1 and set up for T2 if I'm playing against anything with better saves than 5+. That lets me get ready for a T3 charge with assault doctrine possibly without advancing T2 and getting big damage with tactical doctrine and hitting on 3+ instead of 4+, Gabriel Seth only allows me to re-roll 1s and 2s so advancing hurts a bit more for Blood Angels than it does for regular Marines.

Find this method a bit weird - I think its this "PPW Avg" which I don't like very much.

I prefer "points killed/points".

So take assault intercessors.
15*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/90=0.222%

Take regular marines.
With 2 shots (bolter discipline or in 12")
10*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/60=0.222%.
Outside 12" and moved.
5*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/60=0.111%.

I guess you could average this out to 0.166% but that's a bit weird.

From this though you could conclude assault intercessors are always going to be better than regular bolter tacticals - as at worst they do the same, at best they do twice as much damage - and you get 10 wounds on the intercessors versus 7.5 wounds on the Marines. (This value may diminish however in an environment with lots of D2 weapons.)

So to your point - its easy enough to say the grav amp tacticals do the most damage, because assuming you remain stationary, the grav amp kills 1.48 tactical marines on its own - so the rest of the squad easily take it over the 1.66 kills achieved by 5 assault intercessors.

Although I seem to have different numbers to you - maybe because you are overcharging the plasma gun? Theoretically optimal situation - stationary in 12".
4 Grav Amp shots: 4*2/3*2/3*5/6=1.48.
2 plasma shots: 2*2/3*2/3*5/6=0.74
6 bolters: 6*2/3*1/2*1/3=0.666.
For a total of 2.8888.
2.888*12/91=0.38% return.

On the other hand your combi-plasma/grav amp, by costing 91 points rather than say 60 points for 5 basic tacticals, ups the damage expectation of any shooting they take by 50% (even if you don't care much if the first 3 models die). Which is why blinged out armies make 40k a very short alpha strike game.

Thanks, I realised numbers went a little awry from a failed sort on the excel table. Correct numbers are this (all 5-men squads):

Tacs with combi-plas and grav amp, 91 points, 22.82 PPW average against MEQ
Tacs with storm-bolter and heavy bolter, 72 points, 49.72 PPW average against MEQ
Tacs with just a heavy bolter, 70 points, 54.01 PPW average against MEQ
Assault intercessors, 90 points, 54.05 PPW average against MEQ
Tacs with just a storm bolter, 62 points, 69.80 PPW average against MEQ
Rapid fire intercessors, 85 points, 76.42 PPW average against MEQ
Plain tacticals, 60 points, 81.08 PPW average against MEQ

Totally take the points you made re: real-world performance. I look at this and think 'right, so tacs with combi-plas and grav amp really, REALLY put the hurt on, and yup, they'll die faster than the intercessors, and yup, to hit penalties after moving are a thing... but you can also potentially partly preserve the damage output by losing normal tacs before the combi plas and grav amp dude'.

What I think is really interesting is the tactical squad with the sergeant having a storm bolter and one guy with a heavy bolter does really well compared to the intercessors, to the point where, durability aside, it makes me think that if you really want or need to save 18 points (for example, so you can put a thunder hammer on some non-character model), it might be a worthwhile alternative (I play a raven guard successor chapter with stealthy for context).

What do you think?

Tyel wrote:
Find this method a bit weird - I think its this "PPW Avg" which I don't like very much.

I prefer "points killed/points".

So take assault intercessors.
15*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/90=0.222%

Take regular marines.
With 2 shots (bolter discipline or in 12")
10*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/60=0.222%.
Outside 12" and moved.
5*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/60=0.111%.

I guess you could average this out to 0.166% but that's a bit weird.

From this though you could conclude assault intercessors are always going to be better than regular bolter tacticals - as at worst they do the same, at best they do twice as much damage - and you get 10 wounds on the intercessors versus 7.5 wounds on the Marines. (This value may diminish however in an environment with lots of D2 weapons.)

So to your point - its easy enough to say the grav amp tacticals do the most damage, because assuming you remain stationary, the grav amp kills 1.48 tactical marines on its own - so the rest of the squad easily take it over the 1.66 kills achieved by 5 assault intercessors.

Although I seem to have different numbers to you - maybe because you are overcharging the plasma gun? Theoretically optimal situation - stationary in 12".
4 Grav Amp shots: 4*2/3*2/3*5/6=1.48.
2 plasma shots: 2*2/3*2/3*5/6=0.74
6 bolters: 6*2/3*1/2*1/3=0.666.
For a total of 2.8888.
2.888*12/91=0.38% return.

On the other hand your combi-plasma/grav amp, by costing 91 points rather than say 60 points for 5 basic tacticals, ups the damage expectation of any shooting they take by 50% (even if you don't care much if the first 3 models die). Which is why blinged out armies make 40k a very short alpha strike game.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the feedback, yup, I stuffed the table in excel. Long story, but the TL;DR version is did a table sort and one particular column of data (the points cost) didn't sort for some reason, skewing the results). Correct numbers are this (all 5-men squads):

Tacs with combi-plas and grav amp, 91 points, 22.82 PPW average against MEQ
Tacs with storm-bolter and heavy bolter, 72 points, 49.72 PPW average against MEQ
Tacs with just a heavy bolter, 70 points, 54.01 PPW average against MEQ
Assault intercessors, 90 points, 54.05 PPW average against MEQ
Tacs with just a storm bolter, 62 points, 69.80 PPW average against MEQ
Rapid fire intercessors, 85 points, 76.42 PPW average against MEQ
Plain tacticals, 60 points, 81.08 PPW average against MEQ

I like your idea, I might try and play around with it a bit. Thanks!

Tyel wrote:
Find this method a bit weird - I think its this "PPW Avg" which I don't like very much.

I prefer "points killed/points".

So take assault intercessors.
15*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/90=0.222%

Take regular marines.
With 2 shots (bolter discipline or in 12")
10*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/60=0.222%.
Outside 12" and moved.
5*2/3*1/2*1/3*12/60=0.111%.

I guess you could average this out to 0.166% but that's a bit weird.

From this though you could conclude assault intercessors are always going to be better than regular bolter tacticals - as at worst they do the same, at best they do twice as much damage - and you get 10 wounds on the intercessors versus 7.5 wounds on the Marines. (This value may diminish however in an environment with lots of D2 weapons.)

So to your point - its easy enough to say the grav amp tacticals do the most damage, because assuming you remain stationary, the grav amp kills 1.48 tactical marines on its own - so the rest of the squad easily take it over the 1.66 kills achieved by 5 assault intercessors.

Although I seem to have different numbers to you - maybe because you are overcharging the plasma gun? Theoretically optimal situation - stationary in 12".
4 Grav Amp shots: 4*2/3*2/3*5/6=1.48.
2 plasma shots: 2*2/3*2/3*5/6=0.74
6 bolters: 6*2/3*1/2*1/3=0.666.
For a total of 2.8888.
2.888*12/91=0.38% return.

On the other hand your combi-plasma/grav amp, by costing 91 points rather than say 60 points for 5 basic tacticals, ups the damage expectation of any shooting they take by 50% (even if you don't care much if the first 3 models die). Which is why blinged out armies make 40k a very short alpha strike game.

 XeonDragon wrote:
What I think is really interesting is the tactical squad with the sergeant having a storm bolter and one guy with a heavy bolter does really well compared to the intercessors, to the point where, durability aside, it makes me think that if you really want or need to save 18 points (for example, so you can put a thunder hammer on some non-character model), it might be a worthwhile alternative (I play a raven guard successor chapter with stealthy for context).

What do you think?

I think Tacticals are underrated. People are considering whether they're the worst unit in the game and they're just not, they're a lot better than Assault Marines for example. Someone went top 4 at a GT with a single Tac squad so it's definitely possible to do well with them and anyway, let's assume at the absolute worst the unit is 20% overcosted, that's 10-ish pts, which is nothing in a 2k list. The next question is whether replacing all your Primaris troops with Tacticals is viable and I don't think it is. But if that's your one concession you want to make in an otherwise competitive army? You can still make a super strong list where your only troops are 3x5 Tacs. As for which Tac loudout is best I'm not sure, you definitely want to put a gun on your Sergeant and I'm leaning on the stormbolter, it just seems like really good value. Then after testing it I'd re-evaluate whether my opponent's focus down my Tacs or my other units and get a heavy/special weapon and maybe a better combi weapon if they get ignored.

I think this is what the results are telling me... that tacticals are underrated. I agree that I would not replace all my primaris troops with tacs - there is still something to be said for a squad of 10 intercessors using strats to auto-hit with 40 bolt shots in one round! That said, I feel like it might be possible to use squads of tacs with the right kit-out to either sneakily snag a few more kills of other infantry, put a bit of hurt on heavy infantry or vehicles or act as a little carnifax distractor for a round or two, buying a little time for your 'better' units by getting your opponent to divide their fire between that unit and the tacs

 vict0988 wrote:

 XeonDragon wrote:
What I think is really interesting is the tactical squad with the sergeant having a storm bolter and one guy with a heavy bolter does really well compared to the intercessors, to the point where, durability aside, it makes me think that if you really want or need to save 18 points (for example, so you can put a thunder hammer on some non-character model), it might be a worthwhile alternative (I play a raven guard successor chapter with stealthy for context).

What do you think?

I think Tacticals are underrated. People are considering whether they're the worst unit in the game and they're just not, they're a lot better than Assault Marines for example. Someone went top 4 at a GT with a single Tac squad so it's definitely possible to do well with them and anyway, let's assume at the absolute worst the unit is 20% overcosted, that's 10-ish pts, which is nothing in a 2k list. The next question is whether replacing all your Primaris troops with Tacticals is viable and I don't think it is. But if that's your one concession you want to make in an otherwise competitive army? You can still make a super strong list where your only troops are 3x5 Tacs. As for which Tac loudout is best I'm not sure, you definitely want to put a gun on your Sergeant and I'm leaning on the stormbolter, it just seems like really good value. Then after testing it I'd re-evaluate whether my opponent's focus down my Tacs or my other units and get a heavy/special weapon and maybe a better combi weapon if they get ignored.