Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Karol wrote:
Doesn't the cancel thing cost like 4CP or something crazy like that? with 2 extra detachments they would be at 12-6, that is enough to use one cancel and have 2+1 CP on turn one onwards to do stuff. That is really not much. They wouldn't even be able to cancel stuff two turns back to back.

That "cancel thing" is an OP stratagem and I'd be glad if it was limited to 1-2 use per game. It's also perfectly fine to play competitive Drukhari without it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


You mean the three detachment force that is part of the lore and point of the Codex, that is suggetsed and suported by rules and lore......yeah that one.

But also an ork dread mob is a fluffy thing that involves tons of heavy support choices. Can't do that now without adding several "tax units" o limiting the CPs pool. An ork dread mob is probably even more popular than a Drukhari army with all the three kinds of subfactions, but I bet orks players won't get any fix. Orks are extremely CPs dependant and desperately want multiple detachments, more than Drukhari. Drukhari can manage to play with few CPs available, orks can't.

You should be able to play Kabal, Cult, and Coven together without negative consequuences. On the other hand, if someone wants to play two different Kabals, that's their own lookout.

 harlokin wrote:
You should be able to play Kabal, Cult, and Coven together without negative consequuences. On the other hand, if someone wants to play two different Kabals, that's their own lookout.

Who says you can't? 6+6 CPs is basically what they get now if they go with 2 battallions and a spearhead/outrider.

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't the cancel thing cost like 4CP or something crazy like that? with 2 extra detachments they would be at 12-6, that is enough to use one cancel and have 2+1 CP on turn one onwards to do stuff. That is really not much. They wouldn't even be able to cancel stuff two turns back to back.

That "cancel thing" is an OP stratagem and I'd be glad if it was limited to 1-2 use per game. It's also perfectly fine to play competitive Drukhari without it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


You mean the three detachment force that is part of the lore and point of the Codex, that is suggetsed and suported by rules and lore......yeah that one.

But also an ork dread mob is a fluffy thing that involves tons of heavy support choices. Can't do that now without adding several "tax units" o limiting the CPs pool. An ork dread mob is probably even more popular than a Drukhari army with all the three kinds of subfactions, but I bet orks players won't get any fix. Orks are extremely CPs dependant and desperately want multiple detachments, more than Drukhari. Drukhari can manage to play with few CPs available, orks can't.

"Probaly more popular" - not for instance where we play - Personally I play Obsidian Rose, Red Grief and yeah Prophets of Flesh

Yeah my Sisters army is not really affected unless lots of other things change but the whole DE Codex is written assuming that you can effectively play with the three elements of the Codex.

re Orks - nearest comparison would be if Ork and anything with a Gretchin involved were considered to break Kultur rules.

re Orks - nearest comparison would be if Ork and anything with a Gretchin involved were considered to break Kultur rules.

Don't give GW strange ideas, they could be listening.

Karol wrote:

re Orks - nearest comparison would be if Ork and anything with a Gretchin involved were considered to break Kultur rules.

Don't give GW strange ideas, they could be listening.

at first i chuckled, at second i dreaded, at third i started laughing out loud because i could imagine that happening.

ERJAK wrote:
You'd have the same CP as the double battalion.

Why would you want a double battalion though? You'd just take a battalion and a vanguard/spearhead/etc. That should give you all the slots you need for 2 cp less. Double battalion will likely never see the light of day again.

You are right.
I was forgetting that they currently allow you to bring a bit of anything you want - i.e. the Vanguard still lets you bring 3 troops, 2 fast attack, 2 heavy support, 2 flyers as well as 3-6 elite units.

Maybe GW will be abolishing these detachments (although since they describe patrol/battalion/brigade as "core" it assumes there are going to be some "non-core" detachments as well.)
Or have them cost more than 1CP - although even if it was 3 CP like a battalion, unless you really want more troops and an HQ slot... its hard to see why you'd bother.

And I can't see people's suggestion that they might be say 5 CP, as that's very punitive. Although it might work as an anti-skew mechanic.

I'm quite sure that those detachments will be 2 CP.

Spoletta wrote:
I'm quite sure that those detachments will be 2 CP.

Very possible, but if so it would seem automatically better than another battalion unless you really want that 3rd hq slot.

In case you want to go for more than one detachment, then yes, another battalion wouldn't be the best choice.

Makes sense that you don't want more than one "core" detachment.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't the cancel thing cost like 4CP or something crazy like that? with 2 extra detachments they would be at 12-6, that is enough to use one cancel and have 2+1 CP on turn one onwards to do stuff. That is really not much. They wouldn't even be able to cancel stuff two turns back to back.

That "cancel thing" is an OP stratagem and I'd be glad if it was limited to 1-2 use per game. It's also perfectly fine to play competitive Drukhari without it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


You mean the three detachment force that is part of the lore and point of the Codex, that is suggetsed and suported by rules and lore......yeah that one.

But also an ork dread mob is a fluffy thing that involves tons of heavy support choices. Can't do that now without adding several "tax units" o limiting the CPs pool. An ork dread mob is probably even more popular than a Drukhari army with all the three kinds of subfactions, but I bet orks players won't get any fix. Orks are extremely CPs dependant and desperately want multiple detachments, more than Drukhari. Drukhari can manage to play with few CPs available, orks can't.

"Probaly more popular" - not for instance where we play - Personally I play Obsidian Rose, Red Grief and yeah Prophets of Flesh

Yeah my Sisters army is not really affected unless lots of other things change but the whole DE Codex is written assuming that you can effectively play with the three elements of the Codex.

re Orks - nearest comparison would be if Ork and anything with a Gretchin involved were considered to break Kultur rules.

They said in the livestream that Drukhari and Knights would be keeping special detachment rules. I'd wait to see the day 1 errata before complaining that the changes negatively impact them.

The various Q&As and articles are starting to run together in my head, but during the one focused on CPs and detachments he mentioned that taking a combined-arms approach would result in the most CPs. He said you could still go for Abaddon and a bunch of Terminators, but it would have less CPs. I am trying to square this with his earlier comments regarding CPs and how an all-Deathwing force would now have a bigger CP pool.

So they do seem to want us to take a "core" detachment by making a "core" detachment "free" if it includes our Warlord. I would be surprised (dismayed) if a Vanguard or Outrider cost more than 3 CP. So if I took an all Deathwing Army at 2000 points I would have 9 CP. Still more than the 5 CP I would have in 8th Ed by taking two Vanguards and of course there are the additional CPs generated in turns. In 8th I would stretch out my Elites to take two Vanguards whereas now I will try to cram as much as I can into that Vanguard. Sadly, I think I'll still just take a Battalion for Deathwing with three units of Scouts so we are back where we started: taking Troops to get CPs. Ravenwing might look at an Outrider because of the limit of 3 FA slots in a Battalion.

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't the cancel thing cost like 4CP or something crazy like that? with 2 extra detachments they would be at 12-6, that is enough to use one cancel and have 2+1 CP on turn one onwards to do stuff. That is really not much. They wouldn't even be able to cancel stuff two turns back to back.

That "cancel thing" is an OP stratagem and I'd be glad if it was limited to 1-2 use per game. It's also perfectly fine to play competitive Drukhari without it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


You mean the three detachment force that is part of the lore and point of the Codex, that is suggetsed and suported by rules and lore......yeah that one.

But also an ork dread mob is a fluffy thing that involves tons of heavy support choices. Can't do that now without adding several "tax units" o limiting the CPs pool. An ork dread mob is probably even more popular than a Drukhari army with all the three kinds of subfactions, but I bet orks players won't get any fix. Orks are extremely CPs dependant and desperately want multiple detachments, more than Drukhari. Drukhari can manage to play with few CPs available, orks can't.

I've heard people say Agents of Vect is OP. I don't buy it. It cost 3 CPS. It fails on a roll of 1. It only eats the CP invested in the strat it cancels on a 6. Sacrifice 20% of your total available CP in order to have a 1 in 6 chance to do nothing? OP? Sure, that's real tough compared to shiny space marine things.

As for dread mobs, yes, fielding one requires you to add a spearhead, which is likely to cost 1 or 2 CP.

Why do you think that is the same as "In a 500 point game, you can use one third of your codex or sacrifice your Obsessions; in a 1k point game, you can use two thirds of your codex; in a 2k game you can use it all; in a 3k game you can use your whole dex, and you'll even be able to squeeze an extra heavy, elite or fast attack into a fourth detachment, but you'll have to pay for it.

See a dread mob may require an extra detachment to field. But a dread or two can be used in any ork detachment right?

With DE, it ain't like that. In 500 point game, you get one detachment. If it's a KABAL, any wych or haemonculus unit breaks your obsessions. Many examples have been provided for you that work. Space marine Companies being the best. Termies are first company, scouts are tenth. Want both in a 500 point game? Okay, no chapter tactic for you. That would be equal to the Drukhari plight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:
Doesn't the cancel thing cost like 4CP or something crazy like that? with 2 extra detachments they would be at 12-6, that is enough to use one cancel and have 2+1 CP on turn one onwards to do stuff. That is really not much. They wouldn't even be able to cancel stuff two turns back to back.

That "cancel thing" is an OP stratagem and I'd be glad if it was limited to 1-2 use per game. It's also perfectly fine to play competitive Drukhari without it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


You mean the three detachment force that is part of the lore and point of the Codex, that is suggetsed and suported by rules and lore......yeah that one.

But also an ork dread mob is a fluffy thing that involves tons of heavy support choices. Can't do that now without adding several "tax units" o limiting the CPs pool. An ork dread mob is probably even more popular than a Drukhari army with all the three kinds of subfactions, but I bet orks players won't get any fix. Orks are extremely CPs dependant and desperately want multiple detachments, more than Drukhari. Drukhari can manage to play with few CPs available, orks can't.

I've heard people say Agents of Vect is OP. I don't buy it. It cost 3 CPS. It fails on a roll of 1. It only eats the CP invested in the strat it cancels on a 6. Sacrifice 20% of your total available CP in order to have a 1 in 6 chance to do nothing? OP? Sure, that's real tough compared to shiny space marine things. It's not OP at all; what it is, is heartbreaking when it works- ohhh, it makes you so angry because you feel like if you had only been able to do that one strat, the whole game would have been different. It twists your two tiny little marine hearts into a pretzel. Don't confuse the most frustrating strat in the game (again, when it works) with OP.

As for dread mobs, yes, fielding one requires you to add a spearhead, which is likely to cost 1 or 2 CP.

Why do you think that is the same as "In a 500 point game, you can use one third of your codex or sacrifice your Obsessions; in a 1k point game, you can use two thirds of your codex; in a 2k game you can use it all; in a 3k game you can use your whole dex, and you'll even be able to squeeze an extra heavy, elite or fast attack into a fourth detachment, but you'll have to pay for it.

See a dread mob may require an extra detachment to field. But a dread or two can be used in any ork detachment right?

With DE, it ain't like that. In 500 point game, you get one detachment. If it's a KABAL, any wych or haemonculus unit breaks your obsessions. Many examples have been provided for you that work. Space marine Companies being the best. Termies are first company, scouts are tenth. Want both in a 500 point game? Okay, no chapter tactic for you. That would be equal to the Drukhari plight.

PenitentJake wrote:
...I've heard people say Agents of Vect is OP. I don't buy it. It cost 3 CPS. It fails on a roll of 1. It only eats the CP invested in the strat it cancels on a 6. Sacrifice 20% of your total available CP in order to have a 1 in 6 chance to do nothing? OP? Sure, that's real tough compared to shiny space marine things...

I don't know that it's OP so much as degenerate in a play environment where GW frequently "fixes" units by giving them a stratagem rather than fixing their actual rules and where your damage output in the first turn or two can have a disproportionate outcome on who wins the game. It does involve giving up your own powers to take away one of your opponent's, but if you only used a unit because their stratagem makes them useful and then the other guy shuts down the stratagem you're left thinking "well, what was the point of that, then?" and it makes the game less fun.

I guess this is a bad time to say that I think Agents of Vect should be a neutral stratagem available for all factions...

Learn to read a room.

Tyel wrote:
I guess this is a bad time to say that I think Agents of Vect should be a neutral stratagem available for all factions...

Learn to read a room.

Agents of Vect would be a fine neutral stratagem for everyone if GW would fix bad units by fixing their statline/rules/costs rather than giving them an OP stratagem, but since they don't it's a pretty bad idea.

PenitentJake wrote:

I've heard people say Agents of Vect is OP. I don't buy it. It cost 3 CPS. It fails on a roll of 1. It only eats the CP invested in the strat it cancels on a 6. Sacrifice 20% of your total available CP in order to have a 1 in 6 chance to do nothing? OP? Sure, that's real tough compared to shiny space marine things.

Nothing is tough compared to the shiny marine things. Compare it to the tools that all the other factions have. And consider that Drukhari don't need lots of CPs so that Agent of Vect isn't a big investment even at 3 CPs. I've played a lot with Drukhari in this edition always with 10 CPs granted. Plus 0-2 from the PoF trait and the additional 1-2 that the Black Heart trait gives you on average. Despite Agent of Vect costs a lot I usually end up spending some CPs to re-roll crappy D6 damage rolls.... but that stratagem alone can determine the game.

PenitentJake wrote:

As for dread mobs, yes, fielding one requires you to add a spearhead, which is likely to cost 1 or 2 CP.

And you're missing the big picture, again. Orks are extremely CPs dependant, especially walkers, which are crap without investing CPs in Kustom Jobs. A functioning ork list wants 18ish CPs, a spearhead is probably going to cost a lot. Having 10+6 CPs may hurt orks a lot if we have to invest 7-10 CPs just in the pre-game phase. With dread mobs is likely to happen. CPs pool isn't worth the same for different armies, Drukhari can easily play with a few of them, orks can't.

PenitentJake wrote:

Why do you think that is the same as "In a 500 point game, you can use one third of your codex or sacrifice your Obsessions; in a 1k point game, you can use two thirds of your codex; in a 2k game you can use it all; in a 3k game you can use your whole dex, and you'll even be able to squeeze an extra heavy, elite or fast attack into a fourth detachment, but you'll have to pay for it.

See a dread mob may require an extra detachment to field. But a dread or two can be used in any ork detachment right?

With DE, it ain't like that. In 500 point game, you get one detachment. If it's a KABAL, any wych or haemonculus unit breaks your obsessions. Many examples have been provided for you that work. Space marine Companies being the best. Termies are first company, scouts are tenth. Want both in a 500 point game? Okay, no chapter tactic for you. That would be equal to the Drukhari plight.

Keep in mind that those obsessions help a lot if they're separate detachments. Would you like a Flayed Skull detachment with wych cult units? Or a PoF one with kabalites and ravagers which get no obsession bonus because they're not coven monsters? An ork player can field a Tin 'Eadz detachment chosing units from the entire codex but nothing but walkers and meganobz gets a bonus. Still need to go with multiple detachment if you want every units to get a clan bonus. Competitive Drukhari obsessions are also very powerful, orks ones? Not that much.

Don't know about lower points games, but in my experience in 1500-2000 points games it has been harder to optimize every ork units with an appropriate clan bonus in the list than drukhari ones, even with kabal+wych cult+coven stuff at the same time. I'd rather field two detachments with specific bonuses in order to gain benefits for the entire list, than the possibility of fielding a single one and only a few units get benefits. Why would I want coven units along with kabals if they don't get that 4++?

PenitentJake wrote:

See a dread mob may require an extra detachment to field. But a dread or two can be used in any ork detachment right?

Sure, and most of the times they dont' get a useful klan bonus. When I played Drukhari I was glad they got that separation into three subfactions as it allowed me to field units with multiple bonuses. A single Obsidian Rose detachment with some coven stuff? No please. The division into three subfactions that Drukhari has brings some limitations, sure, but also lots of benefits.

And considering the fact that Drukhari don't need tons of CPs, they can still go with multiple detachments without being hurt much.

Tyel wrote:
I guess this is a bad time to say that I think Agents of Vect should be a neutral stratagem available for all factions...

Learn to read a room.

How many similar oens are there now?

There is the GSC one, and the Inquisiton ability with one of the Characters - used it last game - need to spend extra CP or the start does not work - quite good as he did not want to

Maybe it is a generic one now - apparently lots of new ones.

Most of my armies could never field more than a single battalion. You guys with access to cheap loyal 32, rusty 17, 10 man grot squads, etc are spoiled.

You'll get over it. Fill out your detachments before you buy a new one.

Tyel wrote:
I guess this is a bad time to say that I think Agents of Vect should be a neutral stratagem available for all factions...

Learn to read a room.

LMFAO

@Blackie- Okay, I get that you're looking at balance between this dex and other weaker dexes and saying "Look, you're good enough that the negative things this edition does to the concept of the army still leave you better than some." And maybe that's true.

But losing access to 66% of your available models in a 500 point came is a codex nullifier.

You can talk about how awesome raiding forces are, BUT THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY EXIST UNTIL YOU HIT 2K!

And every army CAN subfaction soup and always could. I did it with Sisters all the time! My fav was an OoOML battalion as a Faith Battery, a Sacred Rose battalion for taking and holding objectives, and a Bloody Rose Spearhead for my Mortifiers, Repentia and Arcos. And I'll still be able to take two of those three at 1k or all three at 2k. But at 500, I can choose to include any of the units in my dex in any combination without losing my Order Keyword.

If Orks are so bad, advocate for improving Orks instead of saying "It's okay for an army to be sub-par if other armies are worse."

I totally support making Dread mobs usable without soaking all of your CP into them. I am not at all advocating that you should continue to suffer because I too am suffering- even though that would be a very Drukhari way to look at this situation. :-P

TLDR: Detachment limits didn't make sense in 8th and they don't in 9th either. Ro3, Command point costs, and tactical implications all combine to mitigate the effects of detachment abuse enough that an arbitrary limit is unnecessary. Tearing out detachment limits would 100% fix my problem. It would also 100% fix this problem for Daemons, which are the only other army that is hurt by arbitrary detachment limits in this way (to my knowledge).

Do you guys not read the FAQs? Agents of Vect is 4 CP, not 3.

I'm not bothered about AoV, I just don't want to have to choose between CP and access to more than 1/3 of my codex at a time, simply because it was written with an eccentric design philiosophy.

In any case, I have never used (or had access to) Agents of Vect as Drukhari. #flayedforlife

 iGuy91 wrote:
Most of my armies could never field more than a single battalion. You guys with access to cheap loyal 32, rusty 17, 10 man grot squads, etc are spoiled.

You'll get over it. Fill out your detachments before you buy a new one.

None of which applies to Dark Eldar?

 iGuy91 wrote:
Most of my armies could never field more than a single battalion. You guys with access to cheap loyal 32, rusty 17, 10 man grot squads, etc are spoiled.

You'll get over it. Fill out your detachments before you buy a new one.

I need 7 elite slots to run my army. 2 units of paladins, 2 dreadnoughts, 2 apothecaries and a banner ancient. No way I can fit that in to 6 elite from a single detachment.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Most of my armies could never field more than a single battalion. You guys with access to cheap loyal 32, rusty 17, 10 man grot squads, etc are spoiled.

You'll get over it. Fill out your detachments before you buy a new one.

In the new version of the game, all of your units fitting in one detachment is an advantage, not a disadvantage. You're spoiled now.

As for the fill your detachments first statement, you are obviously unfamiliar with how Drukhari and Daemon armies work, and since it's already been explained in copious detail earlier in the thread, I'm not going to explain it again. This thread is about more than Drukhari and Daemon problems, so if you want to discuss other things that pertain to the thread, by all means, do so.

But if you do want to participate in a discussion about how these two dexes suffer more with detachment limits because of the ways they were written, go back a page and review the detailed descriptions of why detachment limits do not work for these particular dexes. As previously stated, both armies are tolerable at 2k points and above, though for Daemons, only the 3k game lets them use their entire dex without penalty; I say they are tolerable at 2k because not many players want all 4 gods represented in their army any way.

But don't dismissively comment on the argument without understanding it. Bad form Smee!

Something that does make a lot more sense now is stuff like the "Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave" rule on the Adepata Sororitas Arco Flagelants, Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins. Might be the designers already had 9th edition in mind as Sisters at least can pack quite some units into a single elite Slot occupied by a priest.

A similar approach might (!) be a way to allow some army specific layouts to be cramped into fewer detachments. I'm only really into Guard where infantry heavy lists have (in my opinion at least) quite full elite slots even for brigades (Astropaths, Special Weapons Teams, Command Squads, Bullgryns, Ogryn Bodyguards, Platoon Commanders, Priests...).
If there were options like "Command Squads don't (have to) occupy an elite slot if at least one Company or Platoon Commander is present" or "for every 2 Infantry Squads, one Special Weapon/Heavy Weapon Squad does not (have to) occupy an elite/heavy support slot", it would be easier to cram 2000 points of infantry heavy guard into a Brigade.

Similar things could be imaginable for artillery vehicles "riding along" with a Master of ordnance, LR tanks with a tank commander etc.


I'm not very familiar with the other codizes, but it might be useful, even if it would be better to be an optional rule instead of the current iteration on the Adeptus Ministorum units.

PenitentJake wrote:


But losing access to 66% of your available models in a 500 point came is a codex nullifier.

You can talk about how awesome raiding forces are, BUT THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY EXIST UNTIL YOU HIT 2K!

500 points games are extremely uncommon though, I don't even consider them real games, just a way to quickly learn the game mechanics. Even at 1000 it's easy to field 2 different (and optimized) Drukhari detachments, at 1500 going with the full 3 isn't hard at all. A PoF spearhead with 3 talos is 400 points, a Black Heart spearhead with 3 ravagers is also 400, and a Wych cult outrider with 9 bikes is just 230.

PenitentJake wrote:

If Orks are so bad, advocate for improving Orks instead of saying "It's okay for an army to be sub-par if other armies are worse."

I totally support making Dread mobs usable without soaking all of your CP into them. I am not at all advocating that you should continue to suffer because I too am suffering- even though that would be a very Drukhari way to look at this situation. :-P

I never said orks are bad, only that using multiple detachments with 9th rumors is going to punish orks more than Drukhari. The huge difference between the two armies is that Drukhari have the most performing units well costed even without investing CPs on them, orks ones are extremely overcosted unless investing mass CPs. Both armies have plenty of options to perform well in any semi-competitive meta at least. And don't get me wrong, any help Drukhari gets is making me happy because I love that faction even if I sold my collection a few month ago and I don't play it anymore.

Don't know about Daemons, my whole point is that worries from Drukhari players about list building in 9th sound like an overreaction to me.

Karol wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Most of my armies could never field more than a single battalion. You guys with access to cheap loyal 32, rusty 17, 10 man grot squads, etc are spoiled.

You'll get over it. Fill out your detachments before you buy a new one.

I need 7 elite slots to run my army. 2 units of paladins, 2 dreadnoughts, 2 apothecaries and a banner ancient. No way I can fit that in to 6 elite from a single detachment.

And the problem with this is what exactly? You can either change your list or buy two detachments and pay the necessary CP to get them.

The game is changing. It's unreasonable to think you won't need to change your list in response.

Karol wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Most of my armies could never field more than a single battalion. You guys with access to cheap loyal 32, rusty 17, 10 man grot squads, etc are spoiled.

You'll get over it. Fill out your detachments before you buy a new one.

I need 7 elite slots to run my army. 2 units of paladins, 2 dreadnoughts, 2 apothecaries and a banner ancient. No way I can fit that in to 6 elite from a single detachment.

With the points going up, you might end up having to drop one of your elites from your army and end up exactly fitting into one detachment.

 Blackie wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


But losing access to 66% of your available models in a 500 point came is a codex nullifier.

You can talk about how awesome raiding forces are, BUT THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY EXIST UNTIL YOU HIT 2K!

500 points games are extremely uncommon though, I don't even consider them real games, just a way to quickly learn the game mechanics. Even at 1000 it's easy to field 2 different (and optimized) Drukhari detachments, at 1500 going with the full 3 isn't hard at all. A PoF spearhead with 3 talos is 400 points, a Black Heart spearhead with 3 ravagers is also 400, and a Wych cult outrider with 9 bikes is just 230.

PenitentJake wrote:

If Orks are so bad, advocate for improving Orks instead of saying "It's okay for an army to be sub-par if other armies are worse."

I totally support making Dread mobs usable without soaking all of your CP into them. I am not at all advocating that you should continue to suffer because I too am suffering- even though that would be a very Drukhari way to look at this situation. :-P

I never said orks are bad, only that using multiple detachments with 9th rumors is going to punish orks more than Drukhari. The huge difference between the two armies is that Drukhari have the most performing units well costed even without investing CPs on them, orks ones are extremely overcosted unless investing mass CPs. Both armies have plenty of options to perform well in any semi-competitive meta at least. And don't get me wrong, any help Drukhari gets is making me happy because I love that faction even if I sold my collection a few month ago and I don't play it anymore.

Don't know about Daemons, my whole point is that worries from Drukhari players about list building in 9th sound like an overreaction to me.

500 point games are not uncommon in my meta or my campaign. They will become incredibly common in 9th, a) because of Crusade and b) because they are now supported with missions, table sizes, Just because YOU don't consider them real games does not make it so. And at 1500 points, you cant take 3 detachments. You aren't allowed to do that until 2k points, though if you're really close, some may let it go. You realize we're not talking about how things work in the current edition, but how they will work in 9th, right? Because in 9th, you can't take 3 detachments at 1500 points, rendering any story about doing so irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

The fact that Drukhari have well costed, well performing units is irrelevant when they aren't allowed to use 2/3's of their well costed well performing units in a 500 point game, and Daemons aren't allowed to use 3/4 of their units in a 500 point game. A good unit that cannot be used is not a good unit.

Your argument seems to be that we should be content to use a fraction of our army at 500 points, because at 2k points, our armies benefit more from multi-subfaction builds than yours does. Your point is valid; at 2k, because each of our subfactions has a better buff than the buffs that are available to your army, DE have an advantage over you. But that is not relevant; it's not a systemic of 9th that leads to the advantage- it's the fact that your subfaction traits aren't as good. You can do everything with your army at 2k that we can do, but we can't do things at 500 points that you can do, which means regardless of the relative power of our armies, DE and Daemons are systemically affected by the detachment limits in small scale games in ways that other dexes are not.

Can I still beat you with just Kabal units at 500 points?
Or just Cult units?
Or just Coven units?

Maybe. I hope so, because I've got no choice but to try.

Could Daemons beat you at 500 points with just Slaanesh?
Or just Khorne, just Tzeentch or just Nurgle?

Again, I hope it's possible, because they have no choice but to try.

I confess, I haven't read the Ork dex and don't own it. You will have characters that belong to specific Kulturs, and those can only be taken in Kultur specific detachments. It's possible that there may be one or two non named characters which can also only be taken by a specific Kultur, but I'm not sure. In any case, other than those few units, any combination of units that fills the mandatory slots in a detachment can be used in the same detachment without you losing you Kultur power.

This is simply not true with DE and Daemons. Coven units cannot share detachments with Cult units. And we don't have Kabal or Coven wyches the way you have Goff or Badmoon Dreads- transports, fliers and mercenaries are the only units in our dex that can be used by multiple subfactions.

How well we match in a 2k point game was never the issue.