Army building and fixed CP

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**Aash**

I thought it was 3 detachments for 1001-2000 pts?

**Canadian 5th**

PenitentJake wrote:
500 point games are not uncommon in my meta or my campaign. They will become incredibly common in 9th, a) because of Crusade and b) because they are now supported with missions, table sizes, Just because YOU don't consider them real games does not make it so. And at 1500 points, you cant take 3 detachments. You aren't allowed to do that until 2k points, though if you're really close, some may let it go. You realize we're not talking about how things work in the current edition, but how they will work in 9th, right? Because in 9th, you can't take 3 detachments at 1500 points, rendering any story about doing so irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

How many CPs do you get at 1,500 points? Now extrapolate from that how many detachments can you take at 1,500 points? How about at 2,001 points?

If you don't understand these rules it's no wonder you're freaking out about something that GW has said they'll fix for DE and Knights.

**blackberry**

So what do you all think the likelihood of something like the following? So for certain sub-factions or special characters, there being a special rule allowing that character or sub-faction to use a non-core detachment for free in lieu of a normal core detachment. The best example I can think of off hand is something like Sammael and Ravenwing. So for instance, if Sammael was your warlord and in an outrider detachment, then that outrider would be free rather than costing extra CP. Similar examples might be Samm Hain (sp?) and an outrider; Dread Mob and spearhead; Deathwing and vanguard, etc.

Heck, they might even call these the new "specialist detachments."

Thoughts, likelihood?

Respectfully,

Blackberry

**Eldarain**

Saw that mentioned by Clockwork. Quite likely I'd think.

**Haighus**

Aash wrote:
I thought it was 3 detachments for 1001-2000 pts?

That is correct, the points divisions are in the following article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/

**Aash**

Haighus wrote:
Aash wrote:
I thought it was 3 detachments for 1001-2000 pts?

That is correct, the points divisions are in the following article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/

I know, it was rhetorical, in response to moaning about not being able to use 3 detachments in a 1500pt game, which is clearly nonsense.

**blackberry**

Elderain,

Oops, guess I was late to the party on that one! It seems as though it'd be a reasonable rule to give those wanting to create those thematic forces a way to do so without too much disadvantage.

Respectfully,

Blackberry

**Eldarain**

blackberry wrote:
Elderain,

Oops, guess I was late to the party on that one! It seems as though it'd be a reasonable rule to give those wanting to create those thematic forces a way to do so without too much disadvantage.

Respectfully,

Blackberry

It was in an entirely different thread. Wasn't meaning to imply you were late to the show at all. I think it has great potential for those thematic armies from the background. I'm interested to see if they add faction specific objectives.

Like a secondary where Ravenwing capture enemies in pursuit of the Fallen etc.

**Haighus**

Aash wrote:
Haighus wrote:
Aash wrote:
I thought it was 3 detachments for 1001-2000 pts?

That is correct, the points divisions are in the following article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/

I know, it was rhetorical, in response to moaning about not being able to use 3 detachments in a 1500pt game, which is clearly nonsense.

**yukishiro1**

I don't think there's much point in speculating about any of this until we know the CP costs for other detachments, and whether there is a soup penalty on top of the cost of taking a second detachment. The answers to these questions will fundamentally shape every question being debated here, from "how much CP will people end up with" to "is soup viable?"

**blackberry**

Oh no worries at all Eldarain! I'm glad others have suggested it; means it's not all thaaat hair-brain.

The new system seems cautiously positive. There are still a lot of unknowns but preliminarily, at least, the rules writers seem to have considered some of the interactions with factions such as Dark Eldar.

**The Newman**

PenitentJake wrote:
[snip]
Could Daemons beat you at 500 points with just Slaanesh?
Or just Khorne, just Tzeentch or just Nurgle?

Again, I hope it's possible, because they have no choice but to try.
[/snip]

That's not strictly true, a Daemon army can be dedicated to Chaos Undivided and take any mix of units you want (well, excepting Khorne and Tzneech). The Loci are a pretty good reason not to do it, but you can.

**p5freak**

The Newman wrote:

That's not strictly true, a Daemon army can be dedicated to Chaos Undivided and take any mix of units you want (well, excepting Khorne and Tzneech).

Why not khorne and tzeentch ?

**Karol**

alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:
iGuy91 wrote:
Most of my armies could never field more than a single battalion. You guys with access to cheap loyal 32, rusty 17, 10 man grot squads, etc are spoiled.

You'll get over it. Fill out your detachments before you buy a new one.

I need 7 elite slots to run my army. 2 units of paladins, 2 dreadnoughts, 2 apothecaries and a banner ancient. No way I can fit that in to 6 elite from a single detachment.
And the problem with this is what exactly? You can either change your list or buy two detachments and pay the necessary CP to get them.

The game is changing. It's unreasonable to think you won't need to change your list in response.

because with two detachments I would be at -3 CP. meaning I get 9, at the start of the game. Which again means there is zero CP improvment over what was in 8th ed. And if larger focus on stratagems, God only knows how many are going to be needed, specialy for an elite army with an old codex that was build with a different system in mind, where unit rules were replaced by stratagems. Less CP limits how my army plays.

Ah and there is no change your list, option, becasue neither of unit has a replacment in other slots. I would love to have an apothecary or banner ancient HQ, or paladin like units as troops or FA.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
Karol 788740 10822021 wrote:

With the points going up, you might end up having to drop one of your elites from your army and end up exactly fitting into one detachment.

With the points going up. I fully expect people to play 2250, 2500 or what ever is the new size that mimics the old 2000pts.

**Aash**

Karol wrote:

Aash wrote:
Karol 788740 10822021 wrote:
With the points going up, you might end up having to drop one of your elites from your army and end up exactly fitting into one detachment.

With the points going up. I fully expect people to play 2250, 2500 or what ever is the new size that mimics the old 2000pts.

That is disappointing. hopefully your group won't do that and will stick at the 2000pts and you don't have a problem.

I think it unlikely that people will tend to play at the 2001-3000pt scale because the minimum tabletop size is so much larger, and it seems that most of the major competitions will be sticking to 2000pts from what I've seen. My experience is that the standard competitive format tends to have an influence on non competitive games in my local community.

On the plus side, if you are playing 2001pt and above, you'll have more CPs available, so paying for that second detachment shouldn't be an issue. Don't forget, everyone else will be adapting to the new rules too, so you'll probably end up changing your army list anyway to adapt to the changes your opponents are making to their lists. Alternatively if you want a very large point game, there is always Apocalypse.

**Blackie**

PenitentJake wrote:

500 point games are not uncommon in my meta or my campaign. They will become incredibly common in 9th, a) because of Crusade and b) because they are now supported with missions, table sizes, Just because YOU don't consider them real games does not make it so. And at 1500 points, you cant take 3 detachments. You aren't allowed to do that until 2k points, though if you're really close, some may let it go. You realize we're not talking about how things work in the current edition, but how they will work in 9th, right? Because in 9th, you can't take 3 detachments at 1500 points, rendering any story about doing so irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

At 500 points you can bring 100% of your codex but you won't get any obsession bonus. Not a big deal, at 500 points the chapter bonuses shouldn't matter that much in terms of balance, it's actually a fair tradeoff considering how competitive is the Drukhari codex. At 1500 points you're definitely allowed to bring 3 detachments.

PenitentJake wrote:

Can I still beat you with just Kabal units at 500 points?
Or just Cult units?
Or just Coven units?

Absolutely. With full coven or full kabal at least, but I wouldn't underestimate wych cult units either. In fact you do have a choice, to give up the obsessions and field whatever you like. You should be able to compete anyway.

**Turnip Jedi**

harlokin wrote:
I'm not bothered about AoV, I just want to have to choose between CP and access to more than 1/3 of my codex at a time, simply because it was written with an eccentric design philiosophy.

In any case, I have never used (or had access to) Agents of Vect as Drukhari. #flayedforlife

Are you like a crazy person ? (joking)

Part the thing about Vect is due to the DE codex landing early in 8e the strats werent that good so in true kin spirit if they arent having fun neither can you

**Amishprn86**

Most DE hated the change when 8th came out and they still hate it now. I'm hoping 9th codex in a year or w/e it comes out fixes it.

**tneva82**

Tyel wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
You'd have the same CP as the double battalion.

Why would you want a double battalion though? You'd just take a battalion and a vanguard/spearhead/etc. That should give you all the slots you need for 2 cp less. Double battalion will likely never see the light of day again.

You are right.
I was forgetting that they currently allow you to bring a bit of anything you want - i.e. the Vanguard still lets you bring 3 troops, 2 fast attack, 2 heavy support, 2 flyers as well as 3-6 elite units.

Maybe GW will be abolishing these detachments (although since they describe patrol/battalion/brigade as "core" it assumes there are going to be some "non-core" detachments as well.)
Or have them cost more than 1CP - although even if it was 3 CP like a battalion, unless you really want more troops and an HQ slot... its hard to see why you'd bother.

And I can't see people's suggestion that they might be say 5 CP, as that's very punitive. Although it might work as an anti-skew mechanic.

I very much doubt least tax det's will cost 1 CP. At least if GW even pretends to have balance enough to have at least kindergarden level balance.

If vanquard etc are 1CP nobody bothers with battalion. More tax, less CP.

Even 2CP and why bother with battalion...Less CP, more tax, less good stuff.

**Aash**

tneva82 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
You'd have the same CP as the double battalion.

Why would you want a double battalion though? You'd just take a battalion and a vanguard/spearhead/etc. That should give you all the slots you need for 2 cp less. Double battalion will likely never see the light of day again.

You are right.
I was forgetting that they currently allow you to bring a bit of anything you want - i.e. the Vanguard still lets you bring 3 troops, 2 fast attack, 2 heavy support, 2 flyers as well as 3-6 elite units.

Maybe GW will be abolishing these detachments (although since they describe patrol/battalion/brigade as "core" it assumes there are going to be some "non-core" detachments as well.)
Or have them cost more than 1CP - although even if it was 3 CP like a battalion, unless you really want more troops and an HQ slot... its hard to see why you'd bother.

And I can't see people's suggestion that they might be say 5 CP, as that's very punitive. Although it might work as an anti-skew mechanic.

I very much doubt least tax det's will cost 1 CP. At least if GW even pretends to have balance enough to have at least kindergarden level balance.

If vanquard etc are 1CP nobody bothers with battalion. More tax, less CP.

Even 2CP and why bother with battalion...Less CP, more tax, less good stuff.

I fully expect Patrols to cost 1CP and Brigades to cost 5CP, but really don't know for the rest. Depends if they want to encourage double battalions or not, but I could see stuff like vanguard and outrider detachments costing either 2 or 3CP.

**Karol**

Aash 788740 10822567 wrote:

That is disappointing. hopefully your group won't do that and will stick at the 2000pts and you don't have a problem.

I think it unlikely that people will tend to play at the 2001-3000pt scale because the minimum tabletop size is so much larger, and it seems that most of the major competitions will be sticking to 2000pts from what I've seen. My experience is that the standard competitive format tends to have an influence on non competitive games in my local community.

On the plus side, if you are playing 2001pt and above, you'll have more CPs available, so paying for that second detachment shouldn't be an issue. Don't forget, everyone else will be adapting to the new rules too, so you'll probably end up changing your army list anyway to adapt to the changes your opponents are making to their lists. Alternatively if you want a very large point game, there is always Apocalypse.

It is what I am feeling, not what I am thinking. thinking wise I ahve no idea what is going to happen in 9th, we don't even have most of the rules leaked. Plus on a more personal basis, it shouldn't bother me much anyway. Store is closed, so no place to play. I am not sure if we even going to ge ta new one, and if we don't then 8th or 9th ed doesn't matter at all.

It would be interesting to hear how it was in the past was 7th or 6th bigger or smaller then 8th? And I don't absolut number, because those GW can doctor by just making cost x10 or /10, I was thinking about model size. Was an ork army more or less the same size in 7th as it was in 8th, or a marine list. If marines didn't really change much as far as models numbergs goes, then I feel like the possibility of people wanting to play with their whole army is bigger. If the armies go up and down between editions, in model size, then more or less anything can happen.

For all we know some sort of ITC or ETC cabal may decide that the new army size is the old 1900pts, and that is what people are going to play.

**Blackie**

Aash wrote:

I fully expect Patrols to cost 1CP and Brigades to cost 5CP, but really don't know for the rest. Depends if they want to encourage double battalions or not, but I could see stuff like vanguard and outrider detachments costing either 2 or 3CP.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? Adding Brigades to the core detachment costs 0-1 CP, Battalions cost 3, Vanguards/Outriders/etc cost 4-5 and Patrol costs 6-7 maybe? The tradeoff is CPs lost vs points invested and tax units: a bigger detachment like a Battallion is a huge investment in points and tax units compared to a Vanguard, hence it should cost less CPs that a smaller detachment which is cheaper in terms of points invested in units.

**Amishprn86**

The problem with that way, someone takes a Patrol (costing 5) puts their WL in it (making it free) then takes a Brigade (costing 1-2), now they are just gaming the system in a different way.

**Aash**

Blackie wrote:
Aash wrote:

I fully expect Patrols to cost 1CP and Brigades to cost 5CP, but really don't know for the rest. Depends if they want to encourage double battalions or not, but I could see stuff like vanguard and outrider detachments costing either 2 or 3CP.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? Adding Brigades to the core detachment costs 0-1 CP, Battalions cost 3, Vanguards/Outriders/etc cost 4-5 and Patrol costs 6-7 maybe? The tradeoff is CPs lost vs points invested and tax units: a bigger detachment like a Battallion is a huge investment in points and tax units compared to a Vanguard, hence it should cost less CPs that a smaller detachment which is cheaper in terms of points invested in units.

I think the more slots a detachment has, the more CPs it will cost. I think GW have got it into their heads that they need to minimized allies/soup etc so if you have a core Battalion detachment with your warlord in it (3CP and refund 3CP) then any additional detachment is potentially from another codex. A battalion of Faction A with an ally that is a Patrol from Faction B isn't going to be penalised as heavily as a Battalion from faction A and another Battalion from Faction B.

That being said, I don't expect there to be any other CP costs to taking allies beyond the cost associated with the detachment.

**the_scotsman**

catbarf wrote:
alextroy wrote:
Interesting thought about Patrol detachment cost.

GW said that Raiding Party will still work under the new rules. For those who have forgotten, Raiding Party gives 4 CP to an army with 3 Drukhari Patrol detachments and 8 CP do an army with 6 Drukhari Patrol detachments. Knowing this, what is the Command Cost of a Patrol detachment?

I theorize the more units a detachment can have, the more CP it will cost. Otherwise, it would be too expensive to add a second small detachment to your army in a small game.

So if a Patrol is 2 CP and Raiding Party gives you 4 CP for taking 3 Patrols, a 3 Patrol Drukhari army will have no net cost for extra detachments: Patrol with Warlord is free, 2 additional patrols cost 4, you gain 4 from Raiding Party. And a 6 Patrol army would cost the Drukhari army only 2 CP: Free first Patrol with Warlord, pay 10 for 5 more Patrols, gain 8 for Raiding party.

Did GW just back into making Drukhari play they way they wrote the book? All they have to do is remove the detachment limitation from Tournament play. Why wouldn't then when it cost CP to add detachments?

Thoughts?

That seems like a solid theory. I figured Patrols would cost 1CP and Brigades would cost 5CP, basically inverting the bonuses from when 8th launched, but then there wouldn't be much reason to take Battalions or Brigades as additional detachments since you could fit more stuff in Patrols. 2CP for a Patrol and maybe 4CP for a Brigade seems likely to me.

No idea what they'll do with Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead, but I would assume probably 3CP. Same cost as a Battalion, fewer slots overall, but more slots in the type you want. Aside from Vanguard, but that really ought to allow up to 12 Elites to match the pattern established by the other two.

Wouldn't a patrol be 0CP if they're going by the bonuses then?

I'm betting it'll be 2CP, but I hope it'll be 1. I wouldn't mind having a bonus 2CP with my drukhari army, they certainly need to buy extra relics to make their HQs do anything.

**Gadzilla666**

Blackie wrote:
Aash wrote:

I fully expect Patrols to cost 1CP and Brigades to cost 5CP, but really don't know for the rest. Depends if they want to encourage double battalions or not, but I could see stuff like vanguard and outrider detachments costing either 2 or 3CP.

Shouldn't it be the opposite? Adding Brigades to the core detachment costs 0-1 CP, Battalions cost 3, Vanguards/Outriders/etc cost 4-5 and Patrol costs 6-7 maybe? The tradeoff is CPs lost vs points invested and tax units: a bigger detachment like a Battallion is a huge investment in points and tax units compared to a Vanguard, hence it should cost less CPs that a smaller detachment which is cheaper in terms of points invested in units.

Not saying that isn't how it'll work, but making brigades the cheapest would favor certain factions. It isn't hard for guard to fill a brigade without taking "bad" units, but for others it would be hard to impossible. Is it even possible to make a brigade with Custodes? I know it's pretty hard with csm, unless you want to run spawn and other lackluster units.

**tneva82**

Aash wrote:

I fully expect Patrols to cost 1CP and Brigades to cost 5CP, but really don't know for the rest. Depends if they want to encourage double battalions or not, but I could see stuff like vanguard and outrider detachments costing either 2 or 3CP.

And why anybody would then take brigade? Or even battalion. Less CP to play with and more crappy tax units...

Just like in 8th good detachments gave least CP but had least tax in 9th it should be reversed.

Having brigade expensive and vanquard etc cheap would just throw balance out of the window.

Well albeit that's reason enough for GW to do so...

**Amishprn86**

Not everyones troops are a tax. I always play Brigade+Outrider with my sisters for example.

**Aenar**

tneva82 wrote:
Aash wrote:

I fully expect Patrols to cost 1CP and Brigades to cost 5CP, but really don't know for the rest. Depends if they want to encourage double battalions or not, but I could see stuff like vanguard and outrider detachments costing either 2 or 3CP.

And why anybody would then take brigade? Or even battalion. Less CP to play with and more crappy tax units...

Just like in 8th good detachments gave least CP but had least tax in 9th it should be reversed.

Having brigade expensive and vanquard etc cheap would just throw balance out of the window.

Well albeit that's reason enough for GW to do so...

If your first core detachment is effectively free (CPs get reimbursed), a Brigade could be useful for those armies desperately needing CPs (not able to afford a separate Outrider/Vanguard/...) and more than 3x Fast Attack or heavy Support Slots.
Even just needing more than 3 HQs could be a valid reason to take a Brigade, if the units needed for that are not a bad tax to pay.

**Ice_can**

tneva82 wrote:
Aash wrote:

I fully expect Patrols to cost 1CP and Brigades to cost 5CP, but really don't know for the rest. Depends if they want to encourage double battalions or not, but I could see stuff like vanguard and outrider detachments costing either 2 or 3CP.

And why anybody would then take brigade? Or even battalion. Less CP to play with and more crappy tax units...

Just like in 8th good detachments gave least CP but had least tax in 9th it should be reversed.

Having brigade expensive and vanquard etc cheap would just throw balance out of the window.

Well albeit that's reason enough for GW to do so...

It's simply if you put all your army in your warlords brigade which should be more than possible for any codex. It's still a net of 0CP

Having a Brigade of Guard and A brigade of SoB would cost more CP than a Brigade of Guard with Batralion of SoB as allies.
Take the SoB down to a patrol and you pay even Less CP's as tou can take less from the SoB codex.

I actually hope they have put a cost on additional codex's otherwise taking 2 ork clans costs the same CP as Guard and SoB or Marines.

A Battalion allows you to take 2-3HQ 3-6Tropps 0-6Elites 0-3 FA, 0-3 HS, 0-2 Flyers and 0LoW

A Patrol is 1-2 HQ, 1-3 Troops, 0-2Elites, 0-2 FA, 0-2 HS, 0-2 Flyers and 0LoW. It costs less CP as you can't cram as much stuff in when your trying to minimise detachments.