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Greetings there, fellow Imperialist loyalists! I am looking for some thoughts on the subject of Primaris Marines. So here goes....

To put it short; I absolutely HATE the models and how they look! Granted, I am a bit of an old fashioned type, and I really don't want any of them in my army. I am building a Homebrew Chapter, and am curious if any of you out there have run into this situation. What was the eventual outcome? Would a non Primaris Chapter still be viable? Any ideas or suggestions on the issue would be greatly appreciated. For the most part, I have the better portion of 4 full squads of Tactical Marines ready, with a few HQ members, 2 Venerables, and 2 normal dreadnoughts. I'm getting ready to start on some vehicles, just to break the monotony of painting soldiers. I also have 1 squad of scouts assembled, but not painted. I also have the fixings of 2 squads of Devastators in the works.

I'm mainly looking for information on the usefulness of my Chapter without any Primaris.

Well here is my input. I have played black templars using zero primaris for entire 8th ed. There are certain units that are stronger even without primaris rules. These include sternguard veterans, vanguard veterans (though they die fast), captains and possibly devastators. For the rest you must be prepared that the never primaris are simply not balanced against tacticals, in fact most things are not. Primaris are way more survivable, and have more attacks, they are too cheap compared to what they get. So your army will loose alot, although you will probably still get some epic wins.

Your choice of chapter will also have big influence on performance, some are wayyy stronger like iron hands, raven guard.

All in all the updates have upgraded marines alot, with shock assult rules and trans human physiology strat. Tacticals are playable and your army will be decent but primaris will have better stuff because that is what gw wants to sell.

There is nothing required that’s primaris. They have some good units, and some bad ones. As the line is still relatively new, it also has some gaps. I think you would have better luck with an all old marine list than a full primaris one.

The biggest problem with trying to start an old-Marine army at this point is that you'll probably never see another model release, and GW isn't likely to go out of their way to make old-Marines work in any future Codex. It may work now but as the meta continues to evolve and adjust to Primaris it will probably work less and less well over time.

We're more likely to start seeing actual replacement units at some point now.

Granted we don't have rules yet but the Outriders could easily replace the older biker units and if the multi part Assault Intercessors get jump packs that's the old Assault Marine squad gone too.

Just as there is nothing stopping people using Rogue Trader era marines, 1st born marine models won't be going anywhere, they'll just start to "count as" Primaris.

In short, you will have rules for your units for quite some time to come. Even models, as GW is more than willing to let SKUs and sprues loiter for 20-25 years. So rules, and models will not be an issue.

However...

Good rules will become an issue. Primaris are a sales tool for marine players. GW needs to sell and shift Primaris in order to keep dedicated marine players buying models. While a lot of people will buy them because they're cool looking...far more will buy them if their rules or efficiency is better. Classic marine units still "win" in a few areas, but over time you can expect a variable degree of neglect as the old marines are slowly replaced by Primaris. Keep in mind you'll also be getting nothing new in the future. Of course you have an obscenely large model range available for classic marines, so that's not really a big deal unless need a new unit every couple of months to keep your interest. What you have, is what you have. Only exceptions would be maybe a retooling of an existing character, or new Horus Heresy models which will get translated into 40K to boost sales.

As long as you're okay with the above, you'll have a playable army for a long time to come. While classic marine kits will slowly disappear, or become direct only sales from their website....rules-wise you should have a playable force for a long time, think 10 years or more. You just won't be getting much attention/fixed/boosts/new units, etc.

Now for the good news; as people replace their classic marines, there's a reasonable chance you'll have a bunch of used stuff on eBay that may go for cheap. As Space Marine characters become Primarisized, you'll have a flood of their old minis on eBay, etc. So there's that! Games Workshop has sold so many classic marines that they'll exist in abundance on eBay and trade sites for decades to come.

They just announced a bunch of new primaris stuff that fills gaps in the primaris line and makes old Marines redundant. Any investment you make now in old Marines is a short term one. Primaris is what GW is moving towards. More and more characters are going to get updated to better primaris models and the old Marines versions will pay a tax for being worse units.

I have an all-classic/true/realmarine army and I
A: Ain't replacing it
B: Have remained competetive so far.

No idea what they'll do in the future, but the day they drop support for the classics is the day I stop playing them in the current edition. I can still use em in 2nd with my friends. That said, GW says they're good to go for 9th, so we have some years it would seem.

Edit, continued:
Here's the fun bit about using classics.
A: You get to choose from a model range that's 20+ years old, and there's plenty of great stuff to choose from. I'm often running metal Librarians and Chaplains that are from 2nd Edition.
B: Your units are incredibly flexible. Tactical, Devastator, Sternguard, and Scouts all have extremely flexible loadouts available to them, which has contributed to them basically being always use-able in some form or another. The fact that Devastators have access to six different Heavy Weapons, for example, means that they'll still be a good unit if only one of those weapons is competitive choice. During 8th, the Lascannon, Plasma Cannon, and Grav Cannon were each valuable assets, even though GW was pushing Primaris hard.
C: Your army roster is basically complete in terms of functionality. In fact, I'd say the Marine roster was complete going into 4th edition, we've been "done" for a long time now, and GW has mostly been looking for excuses to add more stuff to the Marines since then (Centurions, Flyers, too many Forge World Dreadnoughts).
D: Drop Pods. Your stuff can load up in Drop Pods, which are a unique transport, and right now I think they're pretty awesome. It will be interesting to see what happens to them for 9th, but whatevs.
E: If Space Marines start to lag competitively for whatever reason, we still have the freedom to ally with the rest of the forces available to the Imperium to fill the holes. So if you're an old hat like me and loathe the idea of working with Primaris, you can ally in the Imperial Guard and start dropping artillery and Superheavy shells on your opponents, all while looking like an army that could have deployed in 1995. At the moment, Super Doctrines are encouraging not-allying, but rules like Super-Doctrines tend to come and go.
F: You can always play an older edition if you can find like-minded folk. Many of us have that option available to us these days.
G: If GW actually drops classic marines. . . we can use largely use the rules for Chaos Marines because guess what, Power Armor dudes with Plasma, Las, Heavy Bolters, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators, Dreadnoughts. We'd lose some stuff, but the core would be largely intact.

With your current setup of Tactical Squads, Scouts, Dreads and Devastators you already have a reasonable core. My lists basically start out with four ten-man Tacticals and three ten-man Devastators, and then I fill in the rest with whatever to support that. During 8th I ran a lot of Plasma and Plasma Cannons, Las Cannons and Grav Cannons. 9th may change what's ideal, but as I said above it's very likely that we will have some combination of tools that will work. Imo, where there's a will there's a way. Personally, I like running lists that wouldn't be out of place on the table in Rogue Trader.

As far as the glut of old-marines on Ebay: it's already totally a thing!

One of my quarantine projects is putting together a quite cheap deathwatch army out of old models from ebay and a lot of bits!

With any luck: the new Deathwatch codex will also provide for a little extra power boost for anyone wanting to run an all old marine army :-)

Honestly, I don't get the whining and doom and gloom. Firstborn marines aren't going anywhere anytime soon. They're perfectly fine and viable. Use 'em and have fun.

Tips for making them work is Sternguard, Company Vets, and lots of Tac Marine squads (5 man as of now) with cheap loadouts...one special/heavy depending on your chapter favorite/synergy and maybe a combi-weapon for the sarge.

Not using primaris is fine. while i do love the look of the models and hell blasters are absolutely devastating in 8th (play tested them) what i object to is the lore. there is no way they should exist...but that aside. there are plenty of units to use in 8th that are non-primaris but still effective. i noticed you had dreadnought in your list. venerable dreads are incredibly effective. with the hit on 2+, have many weapon options, 4 base CC attacks, high toughness, high strength and a 6+ FNP all without a profile. think of them as an 8 wound first born marine

I have switched to using my marine army for horus heresy/30K and retro games of 5th, i leave my admech to play in 8th.

Cool. Thank you for the I information and suggestions.

If your determined to use old marines I would seriously consider playing an older edition of the game at this point. I'm not saying that to be negative but there has been a large resurgence of interest in oldhammer lately. I'm working on armies for whfb 6th ed and will probably build a 3rd ed 40k army soon.

or he could just play the current edition, old marines are prefectly fine.

for all those predicting their demise, consider, the Khorne Bezerker kit is over 20 years old and is still in production. there are other kits that are likewise fairly old. Just because tax marines aren't getting a new kit every 5 years or so does not mean they're going to be squatted anytime soon

This isn't an old kit that hasn't been updated. Or a new kit replacing an old for the same unit. GW is literally replacing older units with new units. The primaris versions of characters will be in the codex. The not primaris versions will be in legends with the rest of the ghosts of gws past. Thinking old Marines are not moving to legends is just crazy at this point.

I’m the complete opposite. It was only last year I made the choice, but from now on, I’m only using Primaris Marines.
For context, I play Blood Angels, and I’ve been gaming since 2011... yikes, that’s a long time.
If people don’t want to use Primaris Marines, that’s fine. It’s your hobby, don’t let me tell you what to do.
But I find Primaris Marines to be fresh, and fun. A new challenge.
Really excited for 9th edition!

I had a whole long post written but for some reason it didn’t post... RIP.

BrianDavion wrote:
or he could just play the current edition, old marines are prefectly fine.

for all those predicting their demise, consider, the Khorne Bezerker kit is over 20 years old and is still in production. there are other kits that are likewise fairly old. Just because tax marines aren't getting a new kit every 5 years or so does not mean they're going to be squatted anytime soon

Yes he can play them. But of course GW being GW they have buffed primaris so that they are already superior and will just keep getting buffs and point drops while old marines will stay the same(aka get worse relatively).

I too share your antipathy towards primaris OP, but as a BA player I've run a pure firstborn list throughout 8th and done ok - in my last game my tactical marines won me the game by killing the enemy warlord!

I tend to run tacs in squads of 5, sometimes 10 if I'm feeling fluffy, all with boltguns, a heavy bolter, and a combi-bolter on the sergeant. Not the most imaginative of configs but I find they do their job in clearing screens well enough to allow me to deep-strike in my heavy-hitters - which tend to be sanguinary guard or termies - so no primaris there either. I could accomplish this easier with aggressors, but running tacs (in tandem with scouts) gives me more board control and presents less optimal targets to the enemy.

I'd also recommend mortis dreadnoughts and contemptor mortis dreads if you feel yourself lacking a bit of firepower - these things can pack all the heavy weapons you need for a reasonable amount of points. They become plain nasty in an IH list, but even outside of Iron Hands don't discount the punch that FW dreads can provide.

diepotato47 wrote:
I’m the complete opposite. It was only last year I made the choice, but from now on, I’m only using Primaris Marines.
For context, I play Blood Angels, and I’ve been gaming since 2011... yikes, that’s a long time.
If people don’t want to use Primaris Marines, that’s fine. It’s your hobby, don’t let me tell you what to do.
But I find Primaris Marines to be fresh, and fun. A new challenge.
Really excited for 9th edition!

I had a whole long post written but for some reason it didn’t post... RIP.

2011...your like a wee little one, or you are making me look old. i started 40K back in 3rd (...and battletech back in 1989 ish) and know people who started from rogue trader

I tend to run tacs in squads of 5

I remember when that was considered min/maxing unless you had them in a razorback.

This isn't an old kit that hasn't been updated. Or a new kit replacing an old for the same unit. GW is literally replacing older units with new units. The primaris versions of characters will be in the codex. The not primaris versions will be in legends with the rest of the ghosts of gws past. Thinking old Marines are not moving to legends is just crazy at this point.

Yeah GW has made it pretty clear that primaris are the new standard marines. they just should have said 'here are the new models and stats' but instead came up with a completely bogus lore explanation. primaris are designed to be better in every way. it is GWs marketing ploy to get you to buy new replacement minis without completely pissing off the people who already had huge collections of marines. some old school options may be good right now, but thats only until GW releases a primaris version to do the same job. i mean look at the difference in eliminators VS old scout snipers.

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't an old kit that hasn't been updated. Or a new kit replacing an old for the same unit. GW is literally replacing older units with new units. The primaris versions of characters will be in the codex. The not primaris versions will be in legends with the rest of the ghosts of gws past. Thinking old Marines are not moving to legends is just crazy at this point.

my point is that GW will likely sell both until the molds run out, so you're proably safe there unless you're looking for an army that will be good for 20-30 years.

yes old chars are getting primarisized but so far it's all been old finecast models.


I expect any space marine chars in plastic will be safe for the time being, not that a lot of those exist outside a handful of space wolves.

Uncle Pecos wrote:
Greetings there, fellow Imperialist loyalists! I am looking for some thoughts on the subject of Primaris Marines. So here goes....

To put it short; I absolutely HATE the models and how they look! Granted, I am a bit of an old fashioned type, and I really don't want any of them in my army. I am building a Homebrew Chapter, and am curious if any of you out there have run into this situation. What was the eventual outcome? Would a non Primaris Chapter still be viable? Any ideas or suggestions on the issue would be greatly appreciated. For the most part, I have the better portion of 4 full squads of Tactical Marines ready, with a few HQ members, 2 Venerables, and 2 normal dreadnoughts. I'm getting ready to start on some vehicles, just to break the monotony of painting soldiers. I also have 1 squad of scouts assembled, but not painted. I also have the fixings of 2 squads of Devastators in the works.

I'm mainly looking for information on the usefulness of my Chapter without any Primaris.

Well, if Troops really are not required in 9th ed then that's a big burden lifted off of non-primaris armies, because then you can begin building armies based solely on the Elites slot.

There are a ton of units available that are very good for non-primaris, and a lot of them are in HQ and Elites:

-Captain on Jump Pack, or Captain with no equipment upgraded to chapter master
-Sternguard and Company Veterans
-Chaplain Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts
-Thunderfire Cannons
-Leviathan Dreadnoughts
-Devastators

Currently, the biggest problem with non-primaris marine armies is that scouts are...OK, but Intercessors are one of the best troops in the game so a lot of people take them, but otherwise run mostly non-primaris stuff I listed above. But suddenly if troops aren't required to get CP, well then you can run your regular marines and just say that they're all hardened veterans with the super-kickass sternguard boltguns and company veteran free chainswords/ access to storm shields.

You may just luck out with Primaris. With the addition of Primaris with Chain Swords and Bolt Pistols (of some sort), it may be that the niches and loadouts of standard Marines are being duplicated in Primaris as we go forward.

If that happens, you can just tell people, "These Marines are Primaris with Chainsword and Pistol".

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if this is what GW ends up doing. Fill all the roles with Primaris, and then tell you that all Marines have Primaris stats.

As someone who owns a ton of the old models: I would love it if they did that!

leerm02 wrote:
As someone who owns a ton of the old models: I would love it if they did that!

I wouldn't, I'm anti-stat-inflation for marines. I'm quite happy with the current 1W 1A.