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I'll update this once 9th launches to account for how the Command Phase works and we get all the rules.

Battle Rounds are renamed to Turns. Instead of Player A going though the Phase Structure followed by Player B going though the Phase Structure, instead do the following:

The Turn begins.

At the start of the Turn, players roll off. The winner chooses whether they are Player A or B that turn.

Player A selects a unit that has not been activated this turn, then may optionally select an additional CHARACTER unit that has not been activated this turn. Those units go though the Phase Structure (with the exception of the Morale Phase). You can choose the order each unit does their actions in their phases.

Player B selects a unit that has not been activated this turn, then may optionally select an additional CHARACTER unit that has not been activated this turn. Those units go though the Phase Structure (with the exception of the Morale Phase). You can choose the order each unit does their actions in their phases.

Repeat steps 3 and 4 until all units have been selected and activated. You cannot choose to not activate a unit, but you can choose to do nothing with that unit as normal. If all a Player's units have been activated this turn, the opposing Player can then carry out their selections as normal with the remainder of their units until all their units have been activated.

For example, Player A selects a unit of Tactical Marines and a Librarian. Player A then does the Movement Phase for the Tactical Squad, then the Librarian. Player A then does the Psychic Phase for the Tactical Squad, then the Librarian. Player A then does the Shooting Phase for the Librarian, then the Tactical Squad, so on and so forth.
Casualties and Wounds are taken as normal (i.e. immediately).

Morale Phase: Starting with Player A, players alternate taking Morale Tests for any units that need to take them.

The Turn ends.

The following Stratagem is available for both players.

Above and Beyond (3CP on the first Turn / 2CP on all other Turns)
Use this stratagem after an opponent has selected their units to activate, but before they begin the Movement Phase for those selected units.
Select a unit of your own. Until the end of the turn, instead of removing slain models from play, do not remove them from play and instead mark them as "to be slain".
Models marked as "to be slain" remain on the battlefield and act as normal for all rules purposes except that models marked as "to be slain" cannot be allocated wounds of any kind for any reason.
If all models in a unit are marked as "to be slain", then no further wounds can be allocated to models in that unit and any allocated wounds are discarded.
Furthermore, if a model in that unit has characteristics that are determined by a Damage Table, use the characteristics the model has when this stratagem is used until the end of the turn, regardless of how many wounds the model suffers during the turn or whether they are marked as "to be slain".
At the end of the turn, all models marked as "to be slain" are slain as normal.

The aim is to reduce the effect of Alpha Strikes turning a game into a 1500vs2000 pt game, while offering an expensive safety valve to protect a unit turn 1 or 2 to allow for it to actually get a chance to do something.

Willing to take any and all constructive feedback and make improvements!

Wow, this is quite simplistic but honestly worth checking out! I think I might try a low point game with these rules to see if the flow is better :-) Kudos man!

Edit: I think you meant to put something at the end of your "to be slain" bit about removing the "to be slain" models at the end of the turn or something though.

I like it! I feel like this works better with smaller armies though.

In my 1k point game yesterday, my army had 15 units, and my opponents had like... 9 or 10. So between the two of us, we had about 25 different units to activate. That's a lot of "this unit took its turn" counters to lay down and keep track of. If the first turn takes about an hour (because both players are doing their thing), then you might be trying to remember whether or not a unit was activated 50 minutes ago.

Maybe the new 9th edition points values will help with this.

Also, how would dedicated transports work? Rhinos are fine because you can just activate the units inside of them before it moves or activate after it moves (and thus do nothing.) But open-topped vehicles lose a lot of value if their passengers have to wait for a separate activation.

Example: My kabalite warriors have rapid fire guns that get extra shots within 12" range. If their raider moves within 12" of the target unit, that target unit can now either move outside of 12" before the kabalites shoot, or it can run up and charge the raider. In the latter case, assuming the raider doesn't get destroyed, my kabalites would have to disembark in order to shoot, and the charging unit would no longer be targetable because it's within 1" of the raider.

Looks pretty good tbh. Just to clarify, does overwatch still work like normal, and how do you handle melee activation?

I have no idea if these rules are "good" or "better" or anything, but I do, from a philosophical standpoint, love to see this kind of work.

Everyone knows that the rules have problems, working together to solve them ourselves, as communities that have a common vision is a great way forward in my eyes. GW isn't going to make perfect rules. Neither is anyone on this forum. But I do believe that people can work together to make progressive rules, that seek to improve and are dynamic, is a leap forward.

In fact, these sorts of things are likely net-benefits to everyone, even those who are "by-the book" players, because GW employees are here and one great way to show something's worth is by demonstrating it.

I'd personally love to see this project develop, even if I may (or may not) come to agree with all it's tenets.

It might be worth clarifying how Transports work - I would expect that the Transport and the unit inside would activate simultaneously, and that if the transport is destroyed, the unit continues to count as having activated. Otherwise, players will rhino-rush, park the rhinos in the way, the opponent will have to target them, and then the units inside (now disembarked) would be able to move & charge etc.

Otherwise it looks good!

Somewhat similar to a scheme I'd been working on. Though I actually did have a Command Phase already (I'm sure GW came up with that independently, but its still weird!)

In the command phase you get a number of CP equal to the number of units on the board. Command points are spent to 'Command' units, i.e. Activate them. There are ways similar to yours to activate multiples at once, characters and transports being some. Units activated together take their phases simultaneously. CP are also used to play Stratagems. When all units are activated or both players are out of CP - you must spend all, then morale wraps it up.

So you can do that wombo-combo of stacking several strats on one unit, but then half your army will stand around doing nothing. Or you spread it out and strats are a bit more precious and reserved for more critical moments.

I do think AA and slightly smaller unit counts would make for a better game overall though.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Somewhat similar to a scheme I'd been working on. Though I actually did have a Command Phase already (I'm sure GW came up with that independently, but its still weird!)

In the command phase you get a number of CP equal to the number of units on the board. Command points are spent to 'Command' units, i.e. Activate them. There are ways similar to yours to activate multiples at once, characters and transports being some. Units activated together take their phases simultaneously. CP are also used to play Stratagems. When all units are activated or both players are out of CP - you must spend all, then morale wraps it up.

So you can do that wombo-combo of stacking several strats on one unit, but then half your army will stand around doing nothing. Or you spread it out and strats are a bit more precious and reserved for more critical moments.

I do think AA and slightly smaller unit counts would make for a better game overall though.

Infinity does something similar, doesn't it? Is it not a bit wonky to have a squad of space marines suddenly hold still and stop shooting or advancing because you wanted to shoot twice with a thunderfire cannon? Genuine question. I feel like some systems do that sort of thing, and I've always found it strange but haven't actually played such games to give it a chance.

This is basically how Necromunda and warcry works, but with just more phases.

While it is a nice idea, the Powers and some rules just don't support i well and i feel it could slow the game down even more than it is. It would force players into taking things that could do more actions than normal, like heroes with 3 powers over heroes with 1. Units like Swarmlord giving you the option to move a unit out of sequence by choosing a unit that hasn't gone yet, etc...

I do want alternating actions, but the game isn't ready for it yet sadly, for now adopting to a wound phase at the end (before moral) would make the game feel like alternating without the need to alternate.


IMO the best games actions i have play has been player 1 gets X actions and there are no phases, you can move when you want, shoot, combat, etc.. you are just limited in your actions you take and you can't take certain actions more than once, or together with each other (like moving 3x with 1 unit), and the other player has limited actions to counter when player 1 is taking their actions.

Example: Player 1 has 10 actions, he want's to move a unit, prepare positions, and shoot. Player 2 checks LoS and sees that they can see the unit moving, he may spend one of his few 3-4 counter actions to shoot that moving unit, this will now stop that unit from moving and they must not take anymore actions.

These types of rules are very tactical and fun, but wouldn't work for 40k without changing 90% the rules.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is basically how Necromunda and warcry works, but with just more phases.

While it is a nice idea, the Powers and some rules just don't support i well and i feel it could slow the game down even more than it is. It would force players into taking things that could do more actions than normal, like heroes with 3 powers over heroes with 1. Units like Swarmlord giving you the option to move a unit out of sequence by choosing a unit that hasn't gone yet, etc...

I do want alternating actions, but the game isn't ready for it yet sadly, for now adopting to a wound phase at the end (before moral) would make the game feel like alternating without the need to alternate.


IMO the best games actions i have play has been player 1 gets X actions and there are no phases, you can move when you want, shoot, combat, etc.. you are just limited in your actions you take and you can't take certain actions more than once, or together with each other (like moving 3x with 1 unit), and the other player has limited actions to counter when player 1 is taking their actions.

Example: Player 1 has 10 actions, he want's to move a unit, prepare positions, and shoot. Player 2 checks LoS and sees that they can see the unit moving, he may spend one of his few 3-4 counter actions to shoot that moving unit, this will now stop that unit from moving and they must not take anymore actions.

These types of rules are very tactical and fun, but wouldn't work for 40k without changing 90% the rules.

This is most of the rules that allow beyond the gates of 40k to function as AA. The things you bring up as problems are just non-problems.

So the swarmlord lets a unit move out of sequence... So? And then when it activates it gets to move again and thats fine. Or using the pick and unit and a character within 3 inchs you get the swarmlord AND the unit it's going to be moving (if you choose). How is that a problem? How exactly does this take longer then it does now in regular 40k?

Nothing forces players into taking anything. Units that can do stuff in the psychic phase are exactly as useful now as they would be under this.

40k needs the tiniest of tweaks to function as AA.

Interesting idea, but it still has issues.

Imagine the impact of a Knight of three Knights and three Armigers/Wardogs. If all the Knights are character, they can activate their whole army in three activations by picking an Armiger and a Knight Character to activate at the same time. During that time, other armies have activate just a handful of their units.

I'd much rather see the Kill Team version of AA. By intertwining the game a a phase level, it prevents large units/models from having as outsized and impact on the game.

Almost like Knights aren't suited to a platoon/company level skirmish game and should be in Apocalypse only.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Almost like Knights aren't suited to a platoon/company level skirmish game and should be in Apocalypse only.

40k hasn't been a skirmish game for years. Get with the times

 Lance845 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is basically how Necromunda and warcry works, but with just more phases.

While it is a nice idea, the Powers and some rules just don't support i well and i feel it could slow the game down even more than it is. It would force players into taking things that could do more actions than normal, like heroes with 3 powers over heroes with 1. Units like Swarmlord giving you the option to move a unit out of sequence by choosing a unit that hasn't gone yet, etc...

I do want alternating actions, but the game isn't ready for it yet sadly, for now adopting to a wound phase at the end (before moral) would make the game feel like alternating without the need to alternate.


IMO the best games actions i have play has been player 1 gets X actions and there are no phases, you can move when you want, shoot, combat, etc.. you are just limited in your actions you take and you can't take certain actions more than once, or together with each other (like moving 3x with 1 unit), and the other player has limited actions to counter when player 1 is taking their actions.

Example: Player 1 has 10 actions, he want's to move a unit, prepare positions, and shoot. Player 2 checks LoS and sees that they can see the unit moving, he may spend one of his few 3-4 counter actions to shoot that moving unit, this will now stop that unit from moving and they must not take anymore actions.

These types of rules are very tactical and fun, but wouldn't work for 40k without changing 90% the rules.

This is most of the rules that allow beyond the gates of 40k to function as AA. The things you bring up as problems are just non-problems.

So the swarmlord lets a unit move out of sequence... So? And then when it activates it gets to move again and thats fine. Or using the pick and unit and a character within 3 inchs you get the swarmlord AND the unit it's going to be moving (if you choose). How is that a problem? How exactly does this take longer then it does now in regular 40k?

Nothing forces players into taking anything. Units that can do stuff in the psychic phase are exactly as useful now as they would be under this.

40k needs the tiniest of tweaks to function as AA.

See knights comments for more examples. If you each had say 12 units and on average the characters can do 2 actions and 1 unit of actions, as soon as one player can double or triple that then it just turns into alpha striking or setting up an alpha strike the opponent can't stop, and i could kill units that has NOT gone yet to limit your turn actions even more so giving me more of an advantage.

The Swarmlord thing was a good example. I got to move more units than you did, meaning i can get more units into melee faster than you can output damage, now you have 2 threats on you but you can't answer them, especially if i have 9 Hive guard and units of Biovores meant to just shoot your units that has not taken actions.

1) if you have less big units your individual activations have greater impact but you get out maneuvered. Someone with more activations can feed you sub optimal targets early and then swarm you after you run out of counters.

Of course msu has the reverse problem. Activations get killed fast and individual activations don't have a greater impact.

The best lists have a balance.

If you are dumb enough to activate everything in 3 moves you will get what you deserve.

2) the swarmlord pays for that special ability. Special abilities are meant to break the normal core rules. It's perfectly fine that another unit gets to move when they activate. It's crazy that you think that's a problem.


Stop theory crafting and start testing. I've played like 8 versions of aa and none of this has been a problem. It doesn't stop people who never played it from panicking about it though.

 Lance845 wrote:
1) if you have less big units your individual activations have greater impact but you get out maneuvered. Someone with more activations can feed you sub optimal targets early and then swarm you after you run out of counters.

Of course msu has the reverse problem. Activations get killed fast and individual activations don't have a greater impact.

The best lists have a balance.

If you are dumb enough to activate everything in 3 moves you will get what you deserve.

2) the swarmlord pays for that special ability. Special abilities are meant to break the normal core rules. It's perfectly fine that another unit gets to move when they activate. It's crazy that you think that's a problem.


Stop theory crafting and start testing. I've played like 8 versions of aa and none of this has been a problem. It doesn't stop people who never played it from panicking about it though.

You missed my point, lower actions means i can hurt more on the table faster than you can at a faster rate and kill important things before you have a chance to use them, defeating the purpose for AA.

I got your point you missed mine. Turn 1 anything important is hidden from your big knights in deployment. I feed your knights conscripts or cultists or grots or (insert cheap chaff). You activate your big knights and kill cheap bs. THEN I pull out all my las canons or anti vehicle tanks or whatever. By the time your knights can shoot the gak they want to shoot they have taken enough damage to drop down some damage brackets and become less effective. Or better I kill one flat out and take 1/3rd of your activations from you.

Again. You get out maneuvered.

And again, this isn't theory for me. I have played this game. The people who try to do what you are claiming would be "over powered" get crushed because they foolishly disregard the advantages of AA to try to step back into the crap game play of IGOUGO. It doesn't work out for you. It's possibly a bigger issue when it's MSU to get overwhelming numbers of activations. But again, those people shed activations quickly because the small units die fast and that advantage gets smaller with every turn.

re: Effects that last "until the next turn" or similar (e.g. buffing Psychic Powers), should those work "until the next time the unit is activated" or "until the next time the originator of the effect is activated"?

Problematic. By timing things, you can stretch an effect over two runs.

Let's take Smoke Launchers as an example. Move the vehicle as your first activation in a turn and blow smoke. Then wait the end of the next turn to activate it and shoot away after forcing your opponent to hit at -1 for two whole turns.

 alextroy wrote:
Problematic. By timing things, you can stretch an effect over two runs.

Let's take Smoke Launchers as an example. Move the vehicle as your first activation in a turn and blow smoke. Then wait the end of the next turn to activate it and shoot away after forcing your opponent to hit at -1 for two whole turns.

Not a problem. It means that tank sits there inactive the entire time. Which either gets it ignored or dead.

Lets look at a better example. Psychic Powers. There are a lot of buff and debuffs but they all have ranges. If a psyker activates early to step forward and cast a debuff on a unit that puts a -1 to hit onto one of your units you get to respond immediately to try and kill that psyker. He activated early, and had to step into the open to do it's thing.

If the enemy survives your next couple activations then they have to leave the psyker stationary, just waiting for the entirety of the next turn. Which means it can't react, relocate, or otherwise take up better positions or do better things based on the changing shape of the battlefield JUST so that one unit will keep having a -1 to hit.

The advantage is balanced by the disadvantage.

Your example only works because it has two units involved, a caster and a target. If the unit does the ability itself or is subject to a stratagem, it gets to prolong the effect of the ability be delaying when it acts.

You will have to have a rule at the start of your turn all effects are reset/turned off.

 alextroy wrote:
Your example only works because it has two units involved, a caster and a target. If the unit does the ability itself or is subject to a stratagem, it gets to prolong the effect of the ability be delaying when it acts.

My example does not include 2 units. It involves the entirety of the other players army that can attack the psyker who's just sitting there to keep the effect going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You will have to have a rule at the start of your turn all effects are reset/turned off.

That's worse. What happens if you activate your psyker last?

Then don't do that. Thats one of the problems with AA as a rule in a system that isn't built for it. Like i said you'll have to rewrite most of the rules to make it work.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then don't do that. Thats one of the problems with AA as a rule in a system that isn't built for it. Like i said you'll have to rewrite most of the rules to make it work.

You don't have to. Most psychic powers with lasting effects last until your next psychic phase. So this models psychic powers last until it's next psychic phase. That's not a change. It's just works.

If you make the change where they last until the next game turn them you introduce game design elements that promote psykers activating early and first to get the most from their powers which undermines the point of aa which is the tactical and strategic choices that come with picking who to activate ,when, and to what end by removing the many layers of decision making for inherent effeciency.

Just don't add those elements by letting it work like it does now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stop looking for solutions to non problems.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then don't do that. Thats one of the problems with AA as a rule in a system that isn't built for it. Like i said you'll have to rewrite most of the rules to make it work.

You don't have to. Most psychic powers with lasting effects last until your next psychic phase. So this models psychic powers last until it's next psychic phase. That's not a change. It's just works.

Not really. Powers that last until your next psychic phase under IGYG last throughout your opponent's entire turn. You don't have to time it, because your turn is before his turn. In an AA environment, you have both activate early to maximize impact during the current joint turn, which means your other units might not be in the right location. You also want to then activate later to ensure you have maximum effect during the next turn. It is simply a very different duration than during YGIG.

Which I why I like the Kill Team joint turn much better than AA where a unit does it's full turn. WH40K rules are just not built for such a system to just be tossed in without issues.

You keep saying that but I keep telling you I have played the game and it's works fine.

 alextroy wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Then don't do that. Thats one of the problems with AA as a rule in a system that isn't built for it. Like i said you'll have to rewrite most of the rules to make it work.

You don't have to. Most psychic powers with lasting effects last until your next psychic phase. So this models psychic powers last until it's next psychic phase. That's not a change. It's just works.

Not really. Powers that last until your next psychic phase under IGYG last throughout your opponent's entire turn. You don't have to time it, because your turn is before his turn. In an AA environment, you have both activate early to maximize impact during the current joint turn, which means your other units might not be in the right location. You also want to then activate later to ensure you have maximum effect during the next turn. It is simply a very different duration than during YGIG.

Which I why I like the Kill Team joint turn much better than AA where a unit does it's full turn. WH40K rules are just not built for such a system to just be tossed in without issues.

Then move those units into position in the previous turn, or activate them first. It's making you really think about tactical choices to maximize your output, rather than just doing everything all at once; I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Just a different thing, as Lance845 rightly points out. If you activate your psyker last this turn, then first next turn (thus ending an effect), that's on you for poor decision making, not a failing of AA system.

The best way to fix Knights is that, when choosing to shoot, a Super Heavy counts each weapon as a separate activation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The best way to fix Knights is that, when choosing to shoot, a Super Heavy counts each weapon as a separate activation.

Even when the weapon is one heavy stubber?